why are the American poor refused to do jobs that are there?

whynot The labor market has only so many forces....

This may all be, but I get the sense from past similar issues that AW wanted to take this time to point out the supposed spoiled, lazy attitude of Americans. I don't get the sense he will respond to discussions regarding the reasons the average unemployed American family isn't packing up their family to become migrant farm workers.

Back breaking work for little to no pay and no health insurance as well as losing your home while you're on the road picking fruit seems to be a reasonable alternative to unemployment to AW. I suspect bringing up the reasons why, by not choosing to do this, the unemployed should not be viewed as lazy, would cause AW to simply accuse one of being, what was it, one of boygabriel's acolytes?

AW: I'm still not biting. You say what you want to and then any time someone gives you differing points of view, even with checkable references, you post a picture with a sign saying you've gone fishing or some crap about aliens on the History channel.

The only frustrating part about this is there are a number of points you make that could be interesting starting off points for discussion. But, as I said, there is no point in starting anything since you shut down as soon as another, stronger view comes along.

BG wrote: Just so you know, wages could be increased to more reasonable levels and it wouldn't bankrupt or damage a single food corporation.

For example, you could raise minimum wage in one of the ugliest industries in the nation, meat processing, and the cost would be literally pennies per McDonald's hamburger.

Your jump from starvation to unprofitable corporations is simplistic and worse, simply inaccurate.

whynot_31 said:

I read somewhere that we pay the smallest percentage of our income for food of any first world nation. If we paid migrant workers higher wages, this would change.

...but I am not convinced we are willing to accept the tradeoff.

Boygabriel said:

WhyNot wrote: ...but I am not convinced we are willing to accept the tradeoff.

literally cents per burger.

ah, but there are other costs beyond a more expensive burger. A workforce that is paid above subsistence is likely to use some of its wages and leisure time to demand things like voting rights, safer work conditions, and quality education for their children.

A giant snowball of personhood ensues.

...while I would like to think that I am ready to deal with the consequences of improving the lives of meat processors and migrant workers, I remain unconvinced that those who agree with me have the will, or the means, to enact such policies.

Even among those corporate entities that have adopted "American" rules for their ag. workforces, the conditions are such that few Americans are willing to work. Long hours, no breaks, lots of repetitive stress injuries, etc. Whether we want to believe it or not, the vast majority of US citizens are simply too soft to undertake this kind of work. Especially when it doesn't come with health insurance, sick days, vacation days, 401(k)'s etc.

I'd suggest you read Working in the Shadows which details this problem accurately.

armchair_warrior said:

if it's not backbreaking than it's not consider hard work is it? I paid my dues, but the lazy in this country still refuse to do a honest days work. rather get more kids.

poor is poor because of what they are refusing to do to escape it. people aren't going to magically get money. they have work towards it or they'll be forever charity cases with beggar bowls.

There are significantly more people looking for work than available jobs.

Once again your generalizations about the poor are pointless and wrong.

Appeasing white/liberal guilt? Lol

Americans who want goods + a standard at prices that prompt $2/hr labor that won't work in the same factories for less than $20/hr are kind of in a pickle

And Americans tend to run from the subjects (math, science) that are the backbone of what little growth/jobs there are left (STEM), which are (justifiably/rightfully) being taken primarily by immigrants

You go on Monster.com & look in IT, engineering, medicine, etc, there are a shit load of jobs. I get at least 2 calls a month from job recruiters. Obviously everyone can't go into those fields and someone who has been working for 20 yrs can't just flip a light switch and become an IT manager. But the point is, yes, corporations are short sighted and more profit driven than they used to be, and the world changed faster than many could keep up... but Americans have def shied away from the sectors of the economy that have long term growth

I know you hate to hear me assign any responsibility for this mess on anyone but those you hate but we all have a hand in it

O god please spare us the 'privilege' talk. Blah not even gonna bother we have already had this discussion.

Booklaw-

I think part of the difference between BG and CTK stems from the degree to which "our" poor, as citizens of one of the wealthiest countries on earth, have more "rights" than the poor of other countries.

For example, some advocates believe that "our" poor have the right to turn down low paying, dangerous, manual labor and should be allowed to survive on the safety net.

While just about everyone believes some sort of a safety net should exist, some believe our present safety net does the overall economy (as well as the poor themselves) a disservice by allowing them to avoid such work. While such debates are always entertaining and emotion filled, I tend to view the safety net in less emotional terms: It is one of the useful tools that the government can use to control the supply of labor.

In an economy of surplus labors such as ours, dangerous, low paying labor can only be avoided only if the wages and working conditions of "our" poor continue to be artificially inflated through things like minimum wage laws, safety nets, immigration regulations etc.

...and I am not impressed with our government's present ability to keep these things in place.

In other words, their ability to avoid such miserable conditions is not on the basis of a "right": It is based instead on what other skills an individual has, and an ever shifting sense of what US citizenship should provide. So, work conditions and employment are not a guarantees at all, but are the result of an ever shifting tolerance for misery, influenced by micro and macro political climates and economic forces.

At present, our political system seems unable to further increase taxes on the rich.

As a result, I think citizens will eventually be filling the positions presently filled by undocumented immigrants; Armchair might have to re-write this post by 2025.