The Tea Party isn't home to a large amount of racism
Comments
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whynot_31 said:
...they are starting to articulate a very fiscally conservative message of self reliance and small government; A message I think will sit well with people who have (for the most part) not needed government assistance.
...yup, in the US, this is often white people.
You mean it sits well with people who DON'T THINK need gov assistance or benefit from gov programs.
The entire platform is based upon people being ignorant of their benefits and privilege.
A 2008 poll of 1,400 Americans by the Cornell Survey Research Institute found that when people were asked whether they had “ever used a government social program,” 57 percent said they had not. Respondents were then asked whether they had availed themselves of any of 21 different federal policies, including Social Security, unemployment insurance, the home-mortgage-interest deduction and student loans. It turned out that 94 percent of those who had denied using programs had benefited from at least one; the average respondent had used four.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/20/opinion/our-hidden-government-benefits.html
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Yes, the wealthy believe that they benefit less from government programs than others. The task is to convince them that they need government, and should have to pay for more it than they already are.
...so far, not enough of them are buying it.
P.S. You know everyone is "racist" and "bigoted" to some degree, right? In order to preserve the impact of the terms, I try to use the terms only against people who are of the white hood swastika variety.
...but lots of folks use the terms against people who they merely have political differences with, and/or because they are advocating policies which have a disproportionate impact on folks who are of a different race.
Neither of which meets my strict definition of "bigotry" or "racism".
...to meet my definition, you really have to know the actor's motivation (For example "we should not make poor people dependent on the government" vs "people who benefit from this program are mostly x race, and therefore we should cut this program").
Just because the Tea Party advocates for cutting programs that have a disproportionate impact on a given race, doesn't make them racist.... Also, if we are going to give the leaderless OWS movement a pass for its idiots not representing the movement, we must do the same for idiots which exist among the leaderless Tea Party.
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Yes, the wealthy believe that they benefit less from government programs than others. The task is to convince them that they need government, and should have to pay for more it than they already are.
No, not the wealthy. MOST people think that. Especially Republican and tea party voters.
So again, the entire platform is based on fundamental misconceptions of how the government helps them.
P.S. You know everyone is "racist" and "bigoted" to some degree, right? In order to preserve the impact of the terms, I try to use the terms only against people who are of the white hood swastika variety.
Again, I am happy for you and your privilege. It allows you to only care about "the impact" bigotry once it reaches KKK level.
I am sure that many Muslims, and non Muslims such as myself, do not agree with you.
"there are people who are more bigoted" is not a response.
"everyone is a little bit racist" is not a response.
"some people see racism in discussions of welfare reform" is not a response.What Herman Cain said is very clearly bigoted. I am open to hearing arguments to the contrary.
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In the middle east, the US is increasingly viewed as being one of the largest, most powerful Christian nations on earth.
If a Muslim candidate in Pakistan was to state "There are moderate Christians, and extremist Christians, but most are extremists", do you think the majority would nod their heads?
I suspect they would, because their image of Christians is comes people who bomb them. ...they are unable to separate the actions of the US government from the disparate interpretations and teachings of "Christianity".
The US population is quite similar, and Herman Cain knows it.
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That's great.
It was a bigoted thing to say.
I'm open to arguments otherwise.
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I think Cain might be enough to motivate me to campaign for Obama again.
...last time, I was assigned by the Democratic Party to go to white neighborhoods to show whites it is ok to be white and vote for Obama.
I wonder where the Democrats will send me this time.
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Non sequitur.
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Playing to people's unfounded beliefs is a good way to win.
I was psyched when the Democrats appeared to have figured it out in 2008. Lots of people came out voted that had never voted before.
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The Tea Party: playing to bigots in order to win elections.
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The
Tea Partypolitical parties: playing tobigotsunfounded beliefs in order to win elections. A practice that has been used since the beginning of time.As long as voters fall for it, it's kinda silly to blame any party for engaging in it.
A sucker and his
moneyvote are soon parted. -
Did you just equate pandering to bigotry with, say, liberals excitement over Obama's "change" in '08?
That is an impressively terrible false equivalency, even by your standards.
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I didn't use the word bigotry. I used the terms "unfounded beliefs".
Will the liberals be wiser this time?
Bad news: The Tea Party voters and candidates seem to be as malleable as ever.
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I didn't use the word bigotry.
Don't get cute.
You referred to bigotry as an "unfounded belief," and then claimed such things exist on both sides.
Own what you post.
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I use the terms "racist" and "bigots" very rarely. I try not to engage in hyperbole, because I believe it makes me sound less credible.
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Since you're content to play word games, I'll try again:
Don't get cute.
You changed bigotry to "unfounded belief," and then claimed such things exist on both sides.
It is a miserable equivalency.
Own what you post.
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BG- I've defined my terms, and won't expand their definitions to meet your needs.
Jeffery- You seem to understand what I am writing; both sides seem pretty similar if you limit the analysis to things like race and bigotry.
Soon, we will have to create new terms that have the impact that "racism" and "bigotry" once had.
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Racism is still rampant in the country (as it is all over the world) to pretend that racism exists in equal measures across every single divide including race, political party, state, or educational level is not only ignorant but it's irresponsible and dangerous as well.
The majority of us all know what breeds racism and what environmental/social climates facilitate its growth. Racism is more prevalent in certain "groups" of individuals. We see it, you see it, by ignoring this we allow racism to stay "hidden."
I ask who gains from keeping racism thinly veiled? Also whopretends to not see where racism exists in greater percentages?
We know the answers to those questions as well.
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It definitely exists in some groups more than others.
In fact, many groups have the hatred of other groups as being among their core tenets or beliefs.
Other groups stumble around the edges of the definition, or seem to take actions against a given race ...but, without knowing thier motivations, I hesitate to label them as bigoted or racist.
Fear not, this does not mean I do not confront people who act upon unfounded beliefs. I try to make sure they gain no benefit from holding such beliefs, and hopefully even "out them" in a way that causes them to lose standing.
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whynot_31 said:
BG- I've defined my terms, and won't expand their definitions to meet your needs.Actually, the point is precisely that you expanded bigotry to a category of something that somehow includes a bias that exists in the Democratic Party.
What that thing is I would love to know.
Soon, we will have to create new terms that have the impact that "racism" and "bigotry" once had.
No, actually.
Hermain Cain said something bigoted.
His example actually strengthens the definition of the word.
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People who believe that they have fewer unfounded beliefs than others alternate between being fun and predictable.
They use loaded terms that constantly lose their impact. Don't worry, everyone with an ideology or an identity does it: We are all people.
This ride is great.
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Another failure to address either question.
Cain's comment was bigoted.
You have the privilege of not being Muslim and such bigotry not effecting your life directly.
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Herman. Herman. Herman.
Cain speaks for nearly a half an hour and despite a couple fleeting "999" mentions, keeps his speech to topics of faith and his recent battle with cancer. He begins with a story about how he knew he would survive when he discovered that his physician was named "Dr. Lord," that the hospital attendant's name was "Grace" and that the incision made on his chest during the surgery would be in the shape of a "J."
"Come on, y'all. As in J-E-S-U-S! Yes! A doctor named Lord! A lady named Grace! And a J-cut for Jesus Almighty," Cain boomed.
He did have a slight worry at one point during the chemotherapy process when he discovered that one of the surgeon's names was "Dr. Abdallah."
"I said to his physician assistant, I said, 'That sounds foreign -- not that I had anything against foreign doctors -- but it sounded too foreign," Cain tells the audience. "She said, 'He's from Lebanon.' Oh, Lebanon! My mind immediately started thinking, wait a minute, maybe his religious persuasion is different than mine! She could see the look on my face and she said, 'Don't worry, Mr. Cain, he's a Christian from Lebanon.'"
"Hallelujah!" Cain says. "Thank God!"
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It seems I must use your terms and methods to be considered truly on your side.
It is a human trait that people can believe that they are the only ones fighting a fight, when they are actually dismissing potential allies as being their enemies as result of varying methods. As a result, I don't hold it against you.
In Nov 2012, America will again decide how perceives the world, and how it wishes to be perceived by the world.
If Cain ends up being the Republican nominee, I hope his present strategy of finding an enemy fails. For the sake of the Democrats, I hope they are able to cast some group as an enemy so they may bolster their own returns.
The Tea Party? The rich? The fiscal hawks?
To keep it simple, both sides might even use the same rhetoric again...
oh, right, the linguistics question. Maybe Chomsky can help you.
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Herman Cain has now issued multiple bigoted statements about a very large group of people.
I don't really care what side you think I think you're on.
Nor do I care about your beltway wisdom about how the Democrats can win.
One of our two major parties regularly relies on bigotry, the other does not.
This is a topic worthy of our attention, lest people draw false equivalencies.
whynot_31 said:
It seems I must use your terms and methods to be considered truly on your side.It is a human trait that people can believe that they are the only ones fighting a fight, when they are actually dismissing potential allies as being their enemies as result of varying methods.
In Nov 2012, America will again decide how perceives the world, and how it wishes to be perceived by the world.
If Cain ends up being the Republican nominee, I hope his present strategy of finding an enemy fails. For the sake of the Democrats, I hope they are able to cast some group as an enemy so they may bolster their own returns.
The Tea Party? The rich? The fiscal hawks?
To keep it simple, both sides might even use the same rhetoric again...
oh, right, the linguistics question. Maybe Chomsky can help you.
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I don't think any of the equivalencies being drawn are false.
You may want to look at this in terms of what groups of people believe they have to lose and gain.
After all, aren't the arguments over who is morally superior are pretty silly, given that we would all act the same way if in the other's role?
Chomsky is a good guy, and might be able to help.
I like him.
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You're trying to turn this into something else instead of dealing with facts as presented.
This isn't about moral superiority or electoral strategy.
Cain is saying bigoted things.
Try thinking about this fact outside of your non-Muslim privilege.
I don't think any of the equivalencies being drawn are false.
You may want to look at this in terms of what groups of people believe they have to lose and gain.
After all, aren't the arguments over who is morally superior are pretty silly, given that we would all act the same way if in the other's role?
Chomsky is a good guy, and might be able to help.
I like him.
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I believe Cain's statements to be completely about electoral strategy, but he may coincidentally actually hold these views.
Maybe someday I will run for an election. I imagine it will be much like getting a job offer after BSing my way through interviews in which I told people what I think they wanted to hear.
Elections are much like interviews, it is tough to parse out what is coincidence vs. deeply held views. It is all just verbiage and linguistics, what really matters in life is actions.
As I look back on history, I see both the republican and democrats being willing to send our armed forces into conflicts in which people will be slaughtered. Although many of these conflicts seemed waged under the rhetoric of "democracy/freedom", they all seem to have religion, resources and race as their basis.
In light of human nature, the real questions may be:
Is the honesty of Republicans a fault or an asset?
Is the rhetoric of "diversity" and "inclusion" by Democrats a fault or an asset?
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You have the privilege of only viewing Cain's words as rhetoric because he is not talking about you, and you are not from a disenfranchised or persecuted group.
I bet Muslims feel differently.
Republicans must own their bigoted rhetoric, and neither they nor you get to pretend it doesn't have real world consequences.
I believe Cain's statements to be completely about electoral strategy, but he may coincidentally actually hold these views.
Maybe someday I will run for an election. I imagine it will be much like getting a job offer after BSing my way through interviews in which I told people what I think they wanted to hear.
Elections are much like interviews, it is tough to parse out what is coincidence vs. deeply held views. It is all just verbiage and linguistics, what really matters in life is actions.
As I look back on history, I see both the republican and democrats being willing to send our armed forces into conflicts in which people will be slaughtered. Although many of these conflicts seemed waged under the rhetoric of "democracy/freedom", they all seem to have religion, resources and race as their basis.
In light of human nature, the real questions may be:
Is the honesty of Republicans a fault or an asset?
Is the rhetoric of diversity and inclusion by Democrats a fault of an asset?
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Just convince yourself I like Cain and the Republicans, and am responsible for their actions.
Deem me unaware and complicit. .... part of the problem.
No other method or language is acceptable.
Shouldn't we define terms first? Shouldn't we save some terms for special occasions?
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My advice to you is to stop thinking about what camp I put you in (I generally don't do that to people, esp with political persuations) and just respond to the topic at hand.
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