Bed Stuy Do or Buy?

Goldengreyce-

What is the answer? How will you protect the neighborhood from changing?

To draw a quick analogy, it is very hard to landmark a building to protect it from being bought by developers and replaced with an ugly metal box. It is brutal to watch a beautiful building be destroyed, but we (as a society) often end up in this situation.

Protecting a neighborhood that is owned by independent landlords is far more difficult and complicated; Historic districts are notoriously hard to create.

I can't imagine how one would landmark a neighborhood as being for a certain ethnicity and then declare that only black residents can move in.

All I can do is hope your family finds a way to adapt.

P.S. I am glad you have not responded to the generations of hate bestowed on blacks by some whites, by hating all whites. ...but I'm not opposed to anyone hating haters.

Assuming we can't eliminate such hatred and ignorance, I hope your kids experience less of it than any prior generation.

goldengreyce said:

Thank you whynot_31 for at least trying to see my point of view.

Let me say this- I don't hate white people. To me, that seems pretty obvious but I need to get there right away.

I don't think anyone said that. But I will say you definitely jump to a lot of unfounded conclusions about white people

My issue is that Bed-Stuy and Harlem are seen as sacred to many members of the African-American community. You can go to a black person in South Africa or a white person in Oregon and ask them what they associate Bed-Stuy or Harlem with, and it will be black people.This is our haven, a place where we can be ourselves free of double consciousness and not wear the mask.

There was a time when Bedstuy was all white. Harlem has always been a black town, but the fact that "original" Harlemites were unable to protect their haven from economic forces is not the fault of white people or even gentrifiers. So this point isn't really relevant

I would never complain about gentrification in Brownsville, Crown Heights or East New York. On the contrary, I would sign up to lead tours of the neighborhood while touting the low rents and changing demographic.

Ummm... OK.

Black people in America have been robbed of EVERYTHING. Robbed of our freedom, our men have been lynched, our women raped, our neighborhoods burned down, our schools underfunded. Now we are being chased out of the neighborhoods that we associate with our movements, our joys, our culture. Nothing is sacred to the people moving in, all they see is low rent and nearby train stations.

Right. We associate Bed Stuy & Harlem with our character and all, but we don't own them... we never bought them and we were not given them, we, like the gentrifiers you demonize, displaced people who were already there. Why said displacement is a problem for you now is solely because you may be among the displaced, and the displaced are black like you.

Cool The Kid

Am I perpetuating racism by wanting to preserve Bed-Stuy's culture? I would never yell anything malicious to a white/Asian/Hispanic/Indian person because at the end of the day, they're a person. But I guarantee you that in the same second that your friend was called a "cracker bitch" 20 black men were pulled over by cops for driving in a nice neighborhood, 8 black women were passed over for jobs because the HR company felt like they had enough black employees, 50 black kids weren't invited to slumber parties because their parents wouldn't approve, etc.

None of this has anything to do with the point I was making. You feel like we as black people have the right to Bed Stuy & Harlem because we are owed it. If that's the case then you have to make the case to reverse segregation laws, the Civil Rights movement, etc... because by blocking off areas by race you are essentially throwing all that out the window.

The fact that you would even equate that situation to the day-to-day struggle that blacks face shows that you are unable to see pass white privilege and entitlement.

I didn't...???

Pardon me for wanting to shield my children from something that white people will NEVER be burdened with.

Blocking non-black people from moving into your neighborhood won't guarantee your child won't do anything to shield them from the burden of blackness.

Like I said, it's an economic issue... NYC has to many degrees failed its poor, and the threat of gentrification is a manifestation is that. But I refuse to get into the game of talking about "white privilege" and all that BS. That rouse makes dialogue one sided and meaningless, blocking black people from looking at what we may have done wrong to get to where we are now....

But I'm certain you don't want to get into that... "its all the white man's fault"

ntfool

There's nothing wrong with self-segregation. White people do it all the time, and spent more than 350 years insuring that Negroes were completely separate from their lives and domiciles. Now we're all supposed to sing kumbaya... this never ceases to amaze me. There aren't supposed to be any hurt feelings on our part, no desire to slink away and be amongst our own...in our own neighborhoods.

I asked before and I'll ask again- why isn't anyone concerned about the white people self-segregating in Howard Beach and the Upper East Side? To this day, white people flee to the suburbs to get away from us, yet there is no place we can call our own without opportunists looking to get in on it.

True, Bed-Stuy was once all white, but the native FLED from Negroes. They weren't pushed out by unscrupulous gentrifiers.

Yes, a house was for sale and you bought it. What made you even consider Bed-Stuy in the first place? Had you heard that it was becoming gentrified (a.k.a. safe for whites)? You probably didn't even consider Bed-Stuy at the time same time that you ended up living in Crown Heights all those years ago... why the sudden interest?

Black people look to Bed-Stuy for community, but non-blacks look to Bed-Stuy because it's "cheap". Meanwhile, there are a ton of other comparably-priced neighborhoods that people can move to. Why are people moving to Bed-Stuy as opposed to other neighborhoods in that same price range???

People say "Well we like the culture". The culture is blackness, and last time I checked, you can't get that through osmosis. We are the ones throwing block parties, watching our neighbor's children, fostering a sense of community that is now being wiped out. It will soon evolve into to people not throwing block parties, not watching their neighbor's children and not fostering a sense of community as the demographics change.

Cool The Kid

Where to begin? For one, I will not be displaced. Like the woman in the video, I will be here, my children will be here, and my grandchildren too with dirty looks on our faces :thumbdown:

I don't think black people OWN Bed-Stuy or Harlem, but I do believe (as I said before) that these neighborhoods have served as a haven for black people since before most if not all of these message board posters were born.

Of course, I don't expect this to be relevant to white people. As anyone who has studied history knows, consideration for people's culture, history and territory isn't exactly their strong suit.

However, what I do hope gentrifiers realize is that the "neighborhood culture" that they claim to love so much will disappear along with the people being pushed out. It will turn into yet another bland, indistinguishable neighborhood. The prices will rise, they'll be forced to continue on their sojourn east, deeper and deeper into Brooklyn. However the beautiful history cultivated by blacks in this neighborhood may not recover.

You seem to think that it's mainly broke black renters that are against gentrification of Bed-Stuy. Many owners moved to Bed-Stuy because it was a black Mecca. They saved up their money and made a down payment on their dream. They're getting screwed too.

I really don't know what else to say. Even if no one on this board agrees or understands, I am comforted by the fact that most blacks (and many minorities) know exactly where I coming from. There is a reason why this is a heated debate, a reason why newspapers and magazines have devoted countless articles to this topic. Both sides have valid points, but as a black person, this issue has just reminded me that white people will get what they want, how they want, when they want it, regardless of what culture/ history is standing in the way begging for mercy.

goldengreyce wrote: white people will get what they want, how they want, when they want it, regardless of what culture/ history is standing in the way begging for mercy.

While in this instance, the individuals displacing blacks in Bed Stuy are often white, it actually could be any individuals with more economic power.

I.E. Your neighbors ARE NOT being displaced because the newcomers are white, and they are black. ....Your neighbors ARE being displaced because they have less money that the newcomers.

...there's also been some new housing created in Bed Stuy, which when occupied, tends to displace absolutely no one.

With the exception of groups like the Klan, white people don't have weekly meeting where they get together and and talk about how they are going to destroy blacks. Instead, as in the example I provided above, it is a case of individual white people pursing what they perceive to be their best self interests.

To make a long story short: Poor people are priced out of any neighborhood that is deemed desirable by people with more money.

As Booklaw alludes,

-The Irish with more money do it to whoever lives on the block next door, whether the displaced are Irish or not.

-The Japanese with more money do it to whoever lives on the block next door, whether the displaced are Japanese or not.

-The Nepalese with more money do it to whoever lives on the block next door, whether the displaced are Nepalese or not.

-The Germans with more money do it to whoever lives on the block next door, whether the displaced are Germans or not.

-The African Americans with more money do it to whoever lives on the block next door, whether the displaced are African Americans or not.

-The Finnish with more money do it to whoever lives on the block next door, whether the displaced are Finnish or not.

-The Irish with more money do it to whoever lives on the block next door, whether the displaced are Irish or not.

-The Hispanics with more money do it to whoever lives on the block next door, whether the displaced are Hispanic or not.

So, while I hear you in that you would like to create a haven for African Americans, I am not sure that you have captured the full array of issues you would need to overcome to achieve this goal. You mentioned two "currently white" neighborhoods:

Howard Beach is a mostly white, poor neighborhood not merely because many of its members don't want integration, but also because there aren't a lot of people who want to live there. It is the middle of no where, consists of ugly houses that flood, and the main nearby attractions are sleep denying night flights into JFK and the flea market full of expired toothpaste at the nearby aqueduct "racetrack" parking lot. Unless everyone there gets wealthy and then moves out, it will remain almost exclusively white and poor.

The Upper East Side is a mostly white, wealthy neighborhood not merely because many of its members don't want integration, but also because most rich people in the United States are white. The neighborhood is very convenient to high paying midtown and Wall street jobs. Unless those who are currently wealthy get poor, it will remain wealthy and white.

Bed-Stuy, on the other hand, will be unable to remain largely black, despite many of its members not wanting integration. It is adjacent to neighborhoods which have higher incomes. It has some nice housing stock. It is close to Manhattan. Unless those who are currently there own there homes or make more money, they will get priced out and the neighborhood will become less black.

Meanwhile, places like Hollis, Middle Village and Canarsie remain quite black, and quite middle class. They are distant from the areas presently being sought. They are further from Manhattan and its high paying jobs. Unless those who are currently there lose their jobs and have to move out, those neighborhoods will continue to be mostly black. However, as a middle class person, I have to admit I would consider living in any of those places if it wasn't for the commute. ....the houses are well maintained, the school system is pretty good.

Finally, places like Wyandanch, Mount Vernon and Coram remain quite black, and quite low income. Not only are they far from Manhattan, they are far from ANY of NYC's high paying jobs. No one wants to live there. EVEN IF those who are currently there get better jobs and move out, those neighborhoods will continue to have their poor residents with few options of where to live.

So, while you may see it as white people pricing out black people, I see it as people with more money pricing out people with less money.

...and (as a white guy) I would face the same economic pressures if I lived on the lovely Upper East Side or in ugly Howard Beach.

goldengreyce said:

I asked before and I'll ask again- why isn't anyone concerned about the white people self-segregating in Howard Beach and the Upper East Side? To this day, white people flee to the suburbs to get away from us, yet there is no place we can call our own without opportunists looking to get in on it.

True, Bed-Stuy was once all white, but the native FLED from Negroes. They weren't pushed out by unscrupulous gentrifiers.

Yes, a house was for sale and you bought it. What made you even consider Bed-Stuy in the first place? Had you heard that it was becoming gentrified (a.k.a. safe for whites)? You probably didn't even consider Bed-Stuy at the time same time that you ended up living in Crown Heights all those years ago... why the sudden interest?

Black people look to Bed-Stuy for community, but non-blacks look to Bed-Stuy because it's "cheap". Meanwhile, there are a ton of other comparably-priced neighborhoods that people can move to. Why are people moving to Bed-Stuy as opposed to other neighborhoods in that same price range???

People say "Well we like the culture". The culture is blackness, and last time I checked, you can't get that through osmosis. We are the ones throwing block parties, watching our neighbor's children, fostering a sense of community that is now being wiped out. It will soon evolve into to people not throwing block parties, not watching their neighbor's children and not fostering a sense of community as the demographics change.

Okay then. First and foremost, I believe whynot's post above does a lot to further the self-segregation disucssion, so I don't feel the need to comment on it again. Suffice to say I think he had a thorough and intelligent post.

Moving on, when we moved to Crown Heights in 2002, it was the combination of two things - friends from there (amazingly, not all of our friends are white!) who had told us that it was a warm and inviting community (which it was), and yes, affordability. Clearly, I'm the devil, an "unscrupulous gentrifier", as you say.

What made me consider Bed-Stuy in the first place? Because, hopefully, not all the residents of the community have your mentalilty. It was not a "sudden" interest. It was not that I felt it was becoming "safe for whites" as you so eloquenlty put it. My family and I have been looking for home to purchase for two years. We would certainly prefer to stay in Crown Heights, not becase of how much more the area has gentrified since we got here, as I'm sure you assume, but because we have a lot of friends, our kids are in the local public schools and have their own social support system, and we are part of the existing community.

My question to you is where are these comparatively-priced neighborhoods you mention? Where, in the vicinity of Crown Heights, could I have afforded to buy? Because after two years of looking, we didn't find anything near our current apartment that we could afford.

I didn't suddenly hit upon Bed-Stuy and think "Oh, a mecca of cheap housing options! I need to tell all my friends to move here with us so we can white it up!" We looked. And considered. And looked. And considered. And after spending no small amount of time in the area around the house, patronizing the local businesses and having conversations with area residents, we came to the realization that it really felt very similar to the Crown Heights that we moved to in 2002. So we made an offer.

I do appreciate the local culture. If you feel that me, specifically as an individual, moving into your neighborhood will have a permanent detrimental effect on that culture, well, I'm sorry you feel that way. But as someone of mixed descent, I'm clearly inclined to disagree with you on closing off your culture. If everyone did that, my parents never would've met. Besides which, my wife and have gone to, and hosted, innumberable cookouts in our current neighborhood, been invited to, and hosted, innumberable Sunday dinners, etc. And if you don't like the idea that my wife, kids and I will now be doing the same thing near you on the basis of our skin colors alone, well, that's pretty sad.

However, I do appreciate the sentiment that Mrs. Whynot had above:

If I lived in Bed Stuy, even if I owned one of the beautiful brownstones on Hancock and was being offered a lot of money for it, I don't know how I would feel about the new arrivals. And if I was poor and had no choice of other places to live, I surely wouldn't want to see richer people moving in.

I can understand that mentality, and appreciate it. But I certainly don't like being on the receiving end of it. And, more importantly, while Mrs. Whynot frames that paragraph within economic/class differences, you, goldengreyce, are clearly making your arguments from a racial context. And that to me is pretty scary, knowing that my young kids, who will be in the extreme minority, may be going to a public school with your's, who have been listening to their parent slam all white people that move into the neighborhood as trying to force black folk out, kill their culture, and generalizing a race of people as a whole as opportunistic, greedy duplicitous people. Making it an Us vs. Them scenario. Pretty scary indeed.

I completely understand what everyone is saying. Really, I do. And I hate sounding like the people who, 50 years ago, fled to the suburbs because they didn't want to live in a neighborhood with people of another race.

As I said before, for many black people BedStuy= haven from all the racist bullshit of the outside world.

When your boss talks down to you, when the security guard at the fancy store stares at you, when the white lady clutches her purse as you walk past, you can come home to BedStuy and know that no one is judging you because of your race.

There's nothing wrong with black people wanting to be around each other exclusively, that's why we HBCUs (attended by such "self-segregating" black people as Martin Luther King, Oprah and Toni Morrison), why we have black fraternities, sororities, social groups, summer camps, etc. We even have black enclaves in the Hamptons that are anti-gentrification as well:

New York Times- Comfort and Refuge in Black Hamptons Enclave

''This is a historically black community,'' said Lynn Hendy, president of the property owners association. ''I'd like it to stay that way. White people can go anywhere. But how do you say that without sounding racist?''

God forbid ntfool stumble across one of the angry racists depicted in this article!

Although it was written a while ago (2003), I found this paper to be quite relevant and well written.

http://www.urbanology.org/BedStuy/

If the author were to update the paper, I suspect they would find that the demographic trends have just continued since 2003.

As stated above, I believe the neighborhood will continue to change.....

This article is more recent (2008) and discusses how the neighborhood is described by various print media sources

http://bedstuybanana.blogspot.com/2008/03/face-of-bed-stuy.html

Cool the Kid

The difference between black people forming an enclave and white people forming an enclave is that black people have a shared culture. There is a definitive African-American culture, just as there is an Nuyorican culture, and a Jewish-American culture. There is no definitive white American culture that I'm aware of.

When Puerto Ricans choose to live in Spanish Harlem because they want their kids to grow up around other Catholics that eat arroz con pollo and hit their kids with chancletas, it's not an issue.

When Jews choose to live in Riverdale because they want their kids to grow up around other conservative Ashkenazim that speak Yiddish and do "Birthright" in Israel, it's not an issue.

But when African-Americans want to live in Bed-Stuy amongst ourselves, preserving our culture and traditions, it is an issue?! Please explain this to me.

I understand that gentrification is also an economic issue. However, because of Bed-Stuy's history, racial feathers will be ruffled.

Furthermore, when white people are systematically subjugated by black people, I will understand their desire to seek refuge.

New York is a city that thrives and celebrates diversity as much as it is a city where black men like Amadou Diallo, Sean Bell, Abner Louima and countless others are murdered by cops. A city where we've had 1 minority mayor in our entire history. A city where the top public schools have minority enrollment in the single digits. A city where we have high-profile "birthers" such as Donald Trump. We celebrate diversity on the surface.

I am not weak for wanting to retreat from that, as the Jews, Hispanics and Indians. It's just unfortunate that many our people could not protect their neighborhood through home ownership.

Jews cannot legally exclude blacks (or Puerto Ricans) from Riverdale. Puerto Ricans cannot legally exclude blacks (or Jews) from Spanish Harlem. Blacks can have their shared community in Bed-Stuy; they just cannot legally exclude Puerto Ricans, Jews, or anyone else who wants to share it with them.

booklaw

Of course people cannot legally be excluded. I don't even wish for non-black people to be informally excluded. I just wish that Bed-Stuy could maintain a black majority.

ntfool

Nobody belongs anywhere. We are all free to come and go as we please.

My issue is that as more white people come, and more black people go, Bed-Stuy will end up looking like the Upper West Side. The Upper West Side, of course, is lovely. However, it would hurt to see Bed-Stuy turn into a white-washed Yuppie paradise.

This may not be your intention, but for every white person that moves into Bed-Stuy because it's cheap/full of culture/convenient, there is at least 1 waiting for people like me to be priced out so that it completes the gentrification cycle. And this hurts me to my core.

It's important to be that my child grow up in a middle class black neighborhood. White success is everywhere, but I remember having black lawyers and professors as neighbors and that meant something to me, meant something to us. Likewise, seeing black gang members and drugs addicts meant something as well- a precautionary tale. Black children deserve to see these ends of the spectrum. As a black person, being around black people means something different than being around white people as a white person.

For example, remember when Obama was elected? Yes, I saw white people cheering in the street. But I saw black people weeping in the streets, because it meant something entirely different to us. I cannot put into words the ties that bind us. And yes, there are some black people that are outside of the circle. Many of them are on this message-board defending gentrification, trying to remove race from the reality of the situation. However, I can never and will never applaud anything that disenfranchises my people. And while I certainly take some black people to task for not investing in their community and having misplaced priorities, I abhor opportunists. You probably aren't one of them, but there are more than enough to go around.

Please don't compare my experiences with racism to a white person's experiences with racism. That's like comparing a sprained wrist to an amputated arm. I will always be at the bottom, subaltern.

I don't expect you to understand issues in black community, nor do I expect you to understand the unique dynamic that exists between many of us. All that I hope is that people understand our desire to have our own space.

Wow - I am very impressed by the civility of the discussion here. Goldengreyce has continued to be engaged in the face of much skepticism. I think what she is suggesting is most similar to what certain religiously or ethnically defined Jewish groups, where out marriage and selling homes to non-group members are discouraged. But I would disagree with the poster who suggested that African Americans (in contrast to white Americans) share one "culture." West Indians, Southern migrants, native New Yorkers and Nigerians may all look the same to some, but hardly have the same culture. Of course each one can confront similar racist presumptions and repressions. These same repressions kept Black lawyers living next to Black laborers in the past, encouraging the unitary communities Goldengreyce so admires.

But how can this be a model for future communities? Except for small self-isolating communities such as those suggested above (and perhaps the Amish) which restrict individual freedoms through shunning of those who ignore group strictures, homogenous residential communities seem destined to be relegated to the past. It seems hard to teach my children the essential humanity of all, but say we'd prefer the house next door was owned and occupied by someone who looks like us. Seems perfectly reasonable to judge the behavior or motives of the new neighbors, but not their skin color.

BTW, it is also impressive how this somewhat superficial video was the jumping off point for this thoughtful discussion. I assume the creators were quite young, as most of the featured interviews are with people who I (at age 47) seem as not quite grown-up. Also, most of the white folks on the street were interviewed on the Clinton Hill side of Classon (yes, I know there are many whosay Clinton Hill doesn't really exist, but really?). The featured Black woman who made a disparaging comment about "Stuyvesant Heights" evidences a very shallow knowledge of the history of her own neighborhood, because of course Stuyvesant Heights predates the name Bedford-Stuyvesant.

Whoa, this comment is too long!

Finding a neighborhood one likes in NYC is no small feat.

One balances so many factors:

proximity to work

Cost of housing

Crime

Amount of space one can afford

Racial crap one must endure

Nightlife and retail

Police overattention vs in attention

Schools if you have kids

Proximity of attractive people if you are single

Welcome to the mix.