Please Advise: Crown Heights Safety Kingston Ave

'Hi, I am a [input non-Black race here][gender here]. The neighborhood I plan to move to is filled with people who are not [input non-Black race here]. Implicit in my question is my reasonable prejudice about Black people. Tell me, is it safe??? I know, I'm a bigot for proposing this question, but you're a bigot for answering it with a straight face, no? By the way, in this questionable economy I was privileged enough to receive a mortgage to purchase some choice real estate at an incredible price, a price, by the way, which will definitely increase dramatically once the Black people who have lived there for generations and because of redlining, and history will never receive the same privileges I have to purchase property in the neighborhood -- are moved out of the neighborhood and more [input non-Black race here] people like myself move in. Yeah, I know, I'm a pioneer of sorts. But, what I really struggle with is being a non-bigot bigot, you know? I mean, is it safe to live here? How long do you think before 'market forces' lift all the 'capable boats' and people like me will be the majority and people like 'them' won't? Is it safe??? How long need I live uneasily with those folks whose potential for harming me is constantly in the forefront of my brain? Is it safe?'

Is it safe indeed.... Those who raise the question are the real threat, if you think about it....

whynot_31 said:

That's the nature of the unresolved inner psychic struggle? Nah, that is way to easy to resolve.

For that to be its nature, the desire to remain "safe" would be held only by one race.

Being that we live in a world in which suspicion and fear are common, don't smart people of every hue try to avoid living in situations that will minimize their risk of harm?

Don't smart people of every hue take advantage of every privilege that the world offers them?

....the struggle you describe is easy to resolve. Others are far harder.

As a person of color, I couldn't agree more. Maybe I am looking at it from a classicist angle, but I see myself as a young professional trying to avoid those who wouldn't likely live similar lifestyles (ie sleeping at night on weekdays to get up in the morning to go to work). People who work like me won't be blasting their music at 2 am on weekdays, on a nearly daily basis, because they would be too tired to make it to a 9-5 the next day.

I think the "struggle" and "guilt" lies in perceiving the "difference" whether its class, racial, gender, age etc, and trying not to make a systematic pronouncement on all those who share that same marker, yet, keeping that marker in mind when making a decision based on previous experience, with many people who have "behaved in a certain way and shared that marker".

Basically it is trying to maximize the benefit of experience, without degrading into the pitfall, of glib stereotypical generalizations.

I used to live near a housing project in Bensonhurst. Ironically, I think THEY were the fearful ones.

As for the Kingston Ave area... I don't even like driving through there. My best advice would be to take both walks home from the subway at various times and see what you think.

There are wackos no matter where you live, but I think in that area you are more likely to run into an aggressive one, rather than say... Ft greene or even some parts of Bed stuy.

cremate said:

LOL MHA.... Are you saying the black folks in East NY (sorry if you live there and happen to be sane) are of the same caliber as the ones in Prospect Heights or Fort Greene? That actually makes you the bigot for suggesting it.

Dude, do you sell slaves on the weekends? Are you serious with that question?

And yet you appear to spend time reading and posting on Brooklynian. Are you sure you don't have some buyer's (seller's) remorse?

Apparently still too risky for moth. He's safely on the other side now.

CTK -- note how you create a layered context here. The initiator of this thread does NOT say, 'Hi, I am buying a condo in a statistically high crime area,' is it safe?' All that he/she does is to indicate that they are thinking of such a purchase. Others chime in and THEY announce THEIR race, saying, I am a White male, or a White female, and so far, 'I'm safe'. Implicit in their statement is that 'the others' have not harmed them. The NON-WHITE others...

My tongue-in-cheek commentary is pointing a well-placed finger at this. Imagine, if you will, were I to post a thread about moving to say, Park Slope. Suppose I said, 'Hi, I'm about to buy a condo on 7th Avenue near Sterling Place, is it safe? And then someone responded and they said, 'I am a Black guy living in an apartment not too far from there, and yeah, it's safe.' Or, someone else said, 'Well, I'm a small-framed Black woman and I walk on those streets almost every day, the folks around there get a little noisy sometimes, but otherswise, yeah, it's safe.'

Are you telling me that doesn't sound bizaare to you??

You try to wisk away my comment by making the initial comments on this thread seem reasonable by saying matter of factly in your critique of me, 'It's a high crime area' -- but where do you see that in what has been written about it?

Eastbloc calls my comments yet another example of an unhealthy perspective where I am apparently skewing facts by viewing the world through a racial prism. Eastbloc, it seems to me that any truthful view of this situation cannot obscure the racial aspect. Indeed, to act like race ISN'T a factor here is to miss a PRIMARY perspective that other people who have commented also see the situation through the prism of race. If they do not, then why are THEY mentioning THEIR race?? And why is my pointing out how THEY see the situation unhealthy? And, assuming CTK's perspective is right, and this is a high crime area, why is it still reasonable to say, 'Hi, I am a WHITE person living in this "statistically high crime area" and so far I am safe'!? Why is this okay?

Oh, but to use CTK's reasoning, it's probably reasonable for a White person to say this if it's a statistically high 'hate crime' area...

Once again, MHA speaks truth to power.

MHA breaks it DOWN, baby!!! MHA schools the fools!

LMAO at YOU, dude.... Your so blind,

Watchin' channel zero,

You laud the fools

And scorn the hero...

I'm not thinkin'?? What you call what you do?

Just like Mr. T, I pity you....

MHA said:

MHA breaks it DOWN, baby!!! MHA schools the fools!

LMAO at YOU, dude.... Your so blind,

I think MHA better go back to school himself before he tries to school anyone else again.

Eastbloc, So it's reasonable to say, I'm White, and I'm safe? It's reasonable to imply, these Black people are okay, they won't hurt you.'

I'm now 'high' because I point out this can be viewed as offensive?

Would it be reasonable for me to question my safety in Park Slope?

I do disagree with your statement about whiteness and negative attention -- I have no idea what 'negative attention' is! Is that the opposite of 'positive attention'? Cuz I have NO idea what that is either!

And to frame your comments with snide remarks about my opinion does not help discourse eastbloc, it just clouds it. Make your point. The 'high as a kite' comment is not necessary here, and may give the impression that I'm some sort of dope smoker, which is so far from the truth.

It's not that they fear the Other, they just fear getting beaten up --- or robbed (assumably BY the other) -- that makes no sense! If they don't fear Black people but wonder -- in the absence of any stated EMPIRICAL evidence about the safety of the neighborhood -- if they will be safe, that is TEXTBOOK prejudice! That is what prejudice is!

I don't know the racial identity of person who started the thread, but other people chimed in claiming their Whiteness, implying the neighborhood is Black, then state, 'I'm safe so you'll be safe too'. Where in all of this is prejudice absent??? It's not. The presumption here is because it's a Black neighborhood, White people will not be safe... That's prejudice. Secondly, in the presence of evidence that makes this neighborhood, 'statistically high crime', as CTK stated, the presumption that a White person will be particularly UNSAFE is ALSO prejudice...

Either way you look at it, it's prejudice.

You're being coy, MHA. You know very well what negative attention is -- being stared down, intimidated, verbally abused, spat at, etc.

It can happen to anyone, obviously, not just white people in minority neighborhoods. Wherever an "outsider" is readily identifiable, they run the risk of attracting the ire of some disaffected individual. Areas of high crime and poverty tend to have more disaffected individuals.

So it's really a two-pronged question: whether or not you will stand out there and whether it will matter.

It's not prejudice. It's common sense.

Prejudice, racism, human behavior, experiential learning, constructivism, yada, yada.....

This short article seems to get around some of the nonsense:

http://www.wetasphalt.com/content/why-racism-prejudice-power-wrong-way-approach-problems-racism

Dang, I'm high, I'm coy, I'm seeing giants instead of windmills... Meanwhile eastbloc, your vision is crystal clear....

Nowhere in there did the the thread initiator declare how they dress. No one said, 'Hi, I wear suits to work, and the neighborhood that I plan to live in, well, they don't. Am I safe?' What was presumed was that the thread initiator was 'white like me', and 'I'm safe in this Black neighborhood....et al....' Now we are crouching towards racism by saying, it's okay for a white person to ask this question. Whynot comes close in answering my question about the reasonableness of a Black person asking the same thing, but alas, he too falls flat... It's common sense now to be prejudiced? Go figure...

I love that Avenue Q song!

Now we can see eye to eye! So, you DO agree with me, that it is racist and or prejudice, right? That PRESUMING that one will be unsafe if you are White, and the neighborhood isn't, IS prejudice, right? Even if, as you say, 'everyone' does this, right?

Sure if that's the terminology you want to use.

You can run blindfolded across Flatbush and may not get hit either, but I'm not going to recommend it. I will prejudge the fact that it increases my chance if I am blindfolded and choose to not do that.

Can we just call it smartcist?

MHA, assuming you have the pulse of the crown heights community, is it really that surprising that someone would recommend a white person, or a lady walking home at night, not to live there if safety is of utmost concern?

Granted there are whackos everywhere, but aren't there certain circumstances that smart folks would try to avoid?

Booklaw brings up a good point. Its less about race even. If you're a black dude (or spanish in the likely case of the OP) wearing a suit or getting out of a nice car, you likely also have that target on your back.

I guess I was prejudice when I suggested the OP may be a nice dresser. I tend to think people who post on boards about societal dilemmas tend to be of at least mediocre stock, so I figure their thoughts and concerns align close to my own (prejudging).

But heck, I could be wrong. You could all be dealing bath salts