Should the shrine at Nostrand and Park Place, R.I.P.?
Located at the SW corner of Nostrand and Park, there is a street shrine to people that lost their lives nearby. I am told additions to the shrine could be made only upon authorization of those who ruled the immediate area.
- As noted by the range between their year of birth and date of death, most were younger than 25.
- Most were men.
- I believe most died in homicides.
While we still have the occasional shooting and some ongoing drug dealing along Nostrand, the corner of Nostrand and Park is no longer anything like it once was. The shrine itself seems to provide evidence of this; It was started in approximately 1996 and stopped in 2006, and contains about 50 names.
The majority of the names seem to have been added between 1996 and 2004. After that, the pace slows, with the final entry made in 2006.
Seven years later, in 2013, the shrine no longer provides an omnipresent backdrop to an omnipresent drug trade. Those who created it and made their living in front of it, have now (voluntarily or involuntarily) moved on....
Although it is unfathomable to some long time residents, the days of the shrine's only remaining caretaker (the bodega) seem to be numbered. While the bodega is not regarded as being as much of an artifact as the shrine, it may soon leave us:
-The neighborhood has changed to the degree that it no longer supports stores which subsist largely from the sales of lottery tickets, 40 oz beers, and cigarettes.
-Commercial rents are soaring.
Unless the bodega can find the money to do some major renovations, I would not be surprised if it closed when their current lease expires.
We likely won't get to vote in real life, but, "Should we paint over the shrine and the names of the deceased, like the era never happened, and/or is in the distant past?"
In the present real estate boom, do we remain afraid that potential residents (buyers and renters) and potential proprietors will continue to associate the crime and violence that used to be very common, with today's neighborhood?Or, do we keep the shrine as an artifact of the recent past?
Comments
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I don't think the Bodega still sells beer. Or it didn't last time I was there. I've passed by the memorial perhaps hundreds of times and have never stopped to closely examine it. I think it might be time to let it go. I see no sign that people still use it or that it is cared for. It would appear to coated with grime.
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If this shrine is similar to others like it, it's probably gang-affiliated and should never have existed to begin with.
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This photo from google street view is from a few years ago, but gives viewers some of the larger context:
As you can see, a day care center is located immediately above the mural, and parents access the center via an entrance immediately to the right of the mural.
http://crownheightsdaycare.com/index.html
I suspect the mural continues to be undisturbed out of a combination of reverence, fear, and neglect...
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Does it serve a purpose? Is it a deterrent to people who might otherwise be victims without this grim reminder? Does it enrich anyones lives? Is it time for everyone to move on to bigger and better things? (i.e. inspirational vs. memorial to the drug trade)? I've seen more inspirational murals covered up. This one has served its purpose (although I'm sure some people will have issues with that). I'll vote for something new.
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To me, the shrine sent a message that "we will remember you" and served to reinforce the bravado that is typical of young men involved in the drug trade:
"Welcome to the corner.
You should realize that I will not
hesitate to kill you,
and I know that you
will not hesitate to kill me."As such, I don't perceive it as ever providing a traditional message of deterrence.
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Its not hurting anyone and not costing anyone $ why would you want it gone? Someone went through the trouble to memorialize people in the community and who are we to say it should not be there?
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"People in the community" i.e. loyal Crips fallen in the line of duty.
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Any you know that this memorial is all crips? If not then it shouldn't be touched.
As for buyers - you buy into a neighborhood because its where you want to be so I cannot see how a neighborhood memorial done by the community already living there should deter you from buying -
Stacey-
I don't think whether the deceased had formal gang affiliations to be material.As a parent bringing their child to daycare, would you want your 4 year old to ask you, "Who were the people on the wall?"
As a daycare operator, would you want to have to state to every parent considering enrolling their child, "this is now a much safer place"?
My sense is that the friends and family of the people on the shrine no longer live in the area. I would imagine that most have been priced out.
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To my 4 year old - I would simply state these are people who have passed away over the years and their friends and family have created a memorial to remember them. We bring children to cemeteries, which to me are much more creepier than a wall memorial.
The daycare caters to those same people in the community so you should already know the history/current scene of a neighborhood.
Does it matter if they live there or not anymore?
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Well, if I was the new tenant of the space presently occupied by the bodega, I think it would be wise to consider whether people who knew the deceased still live nearby before I considered painting it over.
Re: the cemetary. The wall strikes me as creepier. These are not people who lived full lives and then died of old age. It is more difficult to tell a kid why someone dies at 19 than 87, and more disturbing for a kid to hear it.
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I doubt at 4 years old these kids can tell that the people there died young. Kids are not breakable and you cannot protect them from the facts of life. They still live in Brooklyn and street smarts starts at a young age. Sometimes these type of memorials can open a dialogue with your child
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Street smarts are important, and kids should certainly know the risks of engaging in the drug trade.
I think the question I am asking is, "Does the shrine still serve a purpose HERE?"
We only have a few places left in Brooklyn that are as violent as the corner of Nostrand and Park once was; Some intersections along Blake, Sutter and Hegeman Avenues come to mind.
While it remains difficult for kids to have much of a childhood in those places, it has become much easier for the children who live on and around Nostrand.
..."We" have fought and won those battles, and finally eeked out an environment in which kids (especially boys) have a better chance of being alive and not incarcerated at age 25.
We now have options that we never did before:
-The "new" and "old" locals could simply chip in and buy some red paint so it matches the rest of the building.
-"We" could collectively design and fund a new mural with the help of Groundswell. http://www.groundswellmural.org/
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That has become a part of the community's landscape. It is a reminder of how the community used to be. I see no reason to change it. If the community and/or owner deems it offensive/old/useless than I would love to see a local artists and the community come up with a new mural.
Maybe because when I grew up not many people could afford a proper burial nor a lavish headstone. Countless times we chipped in for neighbors to be able to bury their family members. These type of memorials popped up all over Brooklyn throughout my life and a steady reminder of how we honored our own.
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Yes, the new residents are certainly wealthier than those who came before them.
And big part of me fears that wealthy, educated, white people from outside of NYC will soon (summmer 2014?) pose before the wall while making what they believe to be gang signs, saying something like "hard core yo!", and having their photos taken.
In approximately 1996, I saw such behavior by a wall shrine on the Lower East Side. Located beside a "then new" upscale deli, the shrine was an artifact to how the neighborhood was a mere four years beforehand, in 1992.
Can "we" paint the wall over if our motivation is to deny "them" the giggles and photos?
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Matthew writes: "I would worry more about the garbage on the sidewalk than the neighborhood wall mural. Let the owner of the building make the decision about what they want their wall to look like.'
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Yes what they did is disrespectful but that was their own issues and they took pictures not defaced the wall. I think its silly to end something because of a few bad apples.
Do we take down synagogues to prevent people from taking pictures in front of it doing a Hitler salute? Do we take down the 9/11 memorial on LI because that dumb woman thought it was ok to take a picture of her beer being poured on the statutes mouth? Do we tear down Jackie Robinson's statute because someone defaced it?
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Fear not, the building owner will ultimately get the final say.
...but I know enough folks that we might be able to influence the nature and timeliness of the decision.
As noted above, my sense is that time is of the essence.
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Maybe they could do like Dinosaur BBQ -
http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20130423/gowanus/dinosaur-bbq-unveils-new-mural-paying-homage-slain-gowanus-manSometimes something so small can mean the world to someone else and that sense of giving is what makes a community. In the case of Raul Vasquez that meant everything to his mother and friends, including me.
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The Visual Artists Rights Act of 1990, which has been incorporated into the United States Copyright Act, makes unlawful the modification or mutilation of certain works of art, including some murals painted on the outside of buildings.
The owner of the building would be well advised to take competent legal advice before destroying or painting over the mural. Otherwise the artist(s) who created the mural, if still living, could sue and obtain substantial damages for the destruction of the mural (assuming that they ever had permission from the building owner to paint the mural in the first place).
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I would be surprised if this shrine was painted with the legal consent of the business owner, or the property owner.
I suspect it was done much in the same way that drug dealing is often done in front of businesses and, (when one seeks to avoid the weather and things like the police and other opponents) INSIDE businesses:
The painters just did it and the owner and proprietor dared not complain. This subset of locals were afterall, a fact of life, and a key source of income.
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Dear Stacey, I appreciate you posting your opinion on the boards to give us another view in this discussion. Do you per chance know any of the people memorialized on this wall? If so, who were they? You dont have to mention names but what kind of people were they?
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I was talking with my neighbor who has lived here for 25 years. He tells of walking in the middle of the street to get to Nostrand because of all the drug dealing on the sidewalks. He certainly does not relish those days. When I bought my building ten years ago, the previous landlord who owned it for twenty years said those twenty years were very rough and he thought we were "turning a corner". I certainly have seen quite a few changes for the better. Loud, rough neighbors have moved on (for the most part) Avenues that were decimated and riddled with crime have revived and new stores and restaurants are opening up. I know a woman who grew up here sixty years ago and she tells of how Nostrand Avenue was ( a very fashionable shopping avenue).
I didnt move here because I thought it was so great. I bought in because it has great potential - great housing stock that needed tender loving care, great access to the city, and in time better amenities than all the 99 cent stores, nail and hair salons. There are many middle class residents that have been here a long time. They have suffered through the bad times and look forward also to improved amenities and a nicer neighborhood. They also see what it can become.
I don't see any benefit in having a shrine to those that participated in perpetuating the neighborhoods bad times. Gangster thug worship is not helping anyone to a better life, except for some rappers.
The groundswellmural project would be a great addition to the neighborhood. It could be an inspiration to everyone, including the children of the daycare center, who could see the potential of what their lives could be, instead of a grimy shrine for kids killed hanging out on the corner selling drugs. Celebrate the people who did something positive, helped others and did something good with their lives. Surely they deserve to be immortalized in a mural. Celebrate book smarts over street smarts. Inspire, Improve, Create. Don't immortalize a life wasted. -
Brownstoner has just picked up this thread, and had a staff member take a better photo than mine:
As of 12:00, Aug 13, there are no comments on their piece yet, but I do hope their readers will weigh in.
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Bravo, tsarina.
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Montrose Morris (the pen name of one of Brownstoner's writers) states:
I lived in Crown Heights, not all that far from this building, for twelve years. Many of the names on that wall died while I lived there. I did not know any of them. I don’t know if they were Crips, Bloods, or Baptists, Church of God in Christ, or promising students, fathers, boyfriends, good kids or horrible adults, or innocent bystanders. Does it matter? They all died far too young in a place where you are supposed to grow up, and become a responsible community member, and eventually a senior citizen.
Instead, they are memorialized on a dirty wall, where paint is peeling, and the names, like the people themselves, fade into community memory. As someone over on Brooklynian said, oftentimes, memorials like this are the only attention that person will ever receive. Sometimes there is not even enough money to bury the person with a headstone. This is their headstone.
Are we glorifying gang culture, or preserving the names of hoodlums who are best forgotten? I don’t think so, as no one on Brooklynian, or here, knows who all of those names are. They are names of the dead. They serve to remind their friends and families that they were here, but they also serve as a reminder that no matter how many million dollar houses there are a block away from this building, there are also serious social problems in the community, and death has been a familiar friend to some members of the community, and that is NOT acceptable.
Now I know we can’t change the world with blogs, or even with million dollar houses, but we don’t need to candy coat the world. The mural is not bothering anyone, but the images are objectionable. They are so because a death of a child, or young person, no matter what they were doing or not doing, is not right. Somewhere in Crown Heights is a mother who lost her child. There are lots of mothers who have children on that wall. That is not the natural way of things.
I say we need such reminders to constantly nag us into knowing that the world is not yet right. That there is injustice, there is poverty, there are people who think that the only way to get ahead is to sell drugs, or defend their turf, consequences be damned. The families of these names may be pushed out by rising prices, and the bodega may be replaced by a Starbucks, and the mural will a distant memory, but that does not negate that this is a part of our history. It’s not shiny and nice, it’s ugly and painful. It is not the experience of all of us, or even most of us. But unless we stop our insane obsession with ourselves, and look to find ways to raise all boats as we sail towards our own bright futures, there will always be walls of the dead somewhere. Leave it alone.
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That is a kind sentiment, beautifully written.
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I'm with Montrose.
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Some may see this as a tangent, but I can't help think that in approximately 1996, the nearby intersection of Vanderbilt Avenue and Park Pl pretty closely resembled the present day intersection of Nostrand Avenue and Park Pl.
Today, daycares are poignantly located at both intersections.
The tution for the one located at Vanderbilt and Park Place is here:
http://montessoridayschool.org/files/MDS 2013-2014 Tuition Rates.pdfAs a result of those rates, I can't help but wonder if the school has disproportionately featured its black attendees on its website: http://montessoridayschool.org/go.php?id=1
Meanwhile, the daycare above and beside the Nostrand wall shrine uses its website, awning, and the sign immediately above the shrine to assure potential parents that it accepts "All Programs", "HRA and ACD Vouchers": http://crownheightsdaycare.com/services.html
I can't help but think that as the neighborhood changes, the methods of payment accepted, the hue of the children, and the wall shrine are ALL likely to receive the largely cosmetic, artifical paint jobs that Montrose and Stacey seem to describe and despise.
P.S. When I last checked, the Brownstoner coverage of this thread was at 23 comments
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Stopped by the mural to check some facts. Saw the references to "o.g." (for those not in the "know" that means original ganster), there was the loving tribute complete with "Heinny" bottle from the family and "killer klan". Swung home past the liquor store, saw the Prospect & Nostrand drunken bum. He's somebodies son, I thought to myself. Perfect place for a memorial for him right above where he was laying, next to the liquor store. Talked to three gentlemen on New York and Park. Asked their opinion about the mural. They were indifferent. Some comments were that the neighborhood had changed and perhaps we didn't need it, or it could stay, but what really irked them was the paint over of the mural of black legends that used to be on the prayer mosque. This is located catty corner from the present mural. It seems a homeless person painted that one and it showed much black history and people who were legends. (This used to be a trophy store) The homeless man has since passed away. My bet that his name is not on the wall across the street. Another gentleman mid block call the mural the "wall of shame". I certainly bemoan the loss of the legends mural. It was inspirational. Just trying to put a finger on the pulse.
I dont think that this is an obsession of the self. It is more a debate on what would be more uplifting and inspirational to the community and especially the kids in the day care center.
Its history, but are we going to commemorate every person that that ever lived and died? I would rather see a memorial to people who actually did something - I can't remember his name, but I should, like that sanitation worker who caught a baby thrown out of a burning building on Eastern Parkway and was later killed trying to shield children from a gun fight on Nostrand Ave. He lived off St. Marks and I went to the candle light protest in front of his home. This is history worth preserving not memorials to shooters who got killed because their luck ran out. Not trying to sugarcoat history, but there is only so much wall space and memory to go around. Who would you rather have your children remember?
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