Should the shrine at Nostrand and Park Place, R.I.P.?

I hope you all get a case of the Poltergeist doing what you propose. Buffing out a memorial to those who passed is a major disrespect. The gall of gentrifiers is amazing much like the developers that built over the graveyards.

Then again history is written by the victors so feel free to write away.

I don't condone this anymore than i condone painting over murals that depict a "positivist history".

Amen to what Montrose wrote. Thanks for sharing. I definitely could not have put it better myself. Lift all boats and sail towards a brighter future together.

A couple of interesting points. The current bodega that is on that corner only opened about a year ago after taking over and renovating from the guys who were there before. That is the 3rd or 4th version of that bodega since I moved to the neighborhood back in 2002. Each successive operator has been a little less accommodating to the corner boys to the point that there is little to no hanging out in the store or in front of that store anymore. I don't expect that corner will change from a bodega to anything else in the near future, but the move away from what that corner was will continue.

Secondly, as was mentioned earlier, that corner had another famous mural across the street from it on the side of the building that now is a mosque. That mural was pictures of famous descendants of the African diaspora. For over twenty years it provided a very clear counterpoint to the lost boys mural. That mural was maintained by the people that ran the trophy store for many years, and when they lost the lease, the owner quietly painted over the mural before he re-let the building to the mosque.

A portion of that mural can be seen in this photo

Thank you for the post of the Legends mural. I always loved that one and was very sorry to see it gone. The fact that it was painted by a homeless person makes it even more touching.

I am not fearing any poltergeists either. There was no respect for the neighborhood when these guys plied their trade on the corner. Other people took the high road and got by. You will never be able to lift all the boats and sail to a better future. Its a lovely sentiment as is the "some mother son". But when you tie all the boats together and only then try to move forward, you will find that progress is very slow indeed. And you waste all the potential of those that can excel because they have to be dragged down to the lowest common denominator. Its a terrible waste.

Stacey, maybe I didnt clarify enough, I definitely was not targeting you in my comment. There were actually comments from people on other sites that took that position, and its the type of comment that comes up very often when the topic involves a gentrifying neighborhood. The people who 'were there first' (obviously forgetting they displaced a group before them) get understandably defensive or angry about any changes they dont like or havent instituted/approved themselves. Nobody has a greater say or right to a neighborhood in my opinion, no matter how long theyve been there. But I'm veering off into a whole 'nother topic.

Whynot - those people you describe who do not want to be vested in a community are entitled to their opinion but I take it with a grain of salt. Just like when someone complains about the city policies but doesn't vote.

Thank you for clarifying that Goldemi and I apologize for associating it with you.

Thank you Pitmama that is very sweet of you.

Other than a 4 year stint in college in Ma. i have lived in the city since 1973. Most of that time in Flatbush and Buswick. I went to public school for my entire primary education. I survived the streets of NY during the crack era. Does that give me more of a say or make me more right in relevance to this conversation? No.

But it does give me a historical perspective.

In addressing something like this we need to seek perspectives (again i only have those i know of and encounter and i know there are many more than that) and to be dilligent in challenging our assumptions.

Comments about how the demographic that is on the outs did not respect the prior demographic is very disturbing to me. How do you know. Did you see how peoeple treated memorials from the 40's and 50's during the 70's and 80's? I know i did and while those memorials were not as sizable as this, they were mostly single memorials, i saw people make the sign of the cross when they passed, some left flowers, even those that some here would consider "thugs or undesirables" would pour some alchohol at shrines for people they had nothing to do with personally. Never did i see anyone disrespect a memorial by destroying it. Of course that is just my experience/perspective.

What does lift every boat mean to those in this forum in the context of what Montrose wrote and or in the context of this conversation? To me it is a reference to how this "situation" is viewed and addressed. A lift every boat approach would examine the sea in its entirety and figure out how to get a solution out of the dock that will not negatively affect the other boats. Just because you see a problem here, that does not mean that all other boats see a problem and if you address this in a manner that only cares about your boat and gets your boat out of the dock on this issue then you are missing an opportunity to fully understand the situation and lift all boats as it relates to this situation.

Some see a problem here where others don't. Because of that i am also put off by those who claim that others rectify the problem. The position, well if you support the memorial then you should clean it.

A lift every boats approach would look more like, i see a problem here, i will do some more research on it. Then i will engage with the community in an effort to bring them onboard with valid solutions to what i see as a problem if i still truly believe it is a problem after gaining perspective i will help spearhead an effort where i bring in others to help address the problem.

While i am not a religous person and i dont believe everyones soul can be saved, i have been an educator in NYC public schools and i believed in every child that walked through the those doors. To say you can never lift every boat to me is wrong and a pessimistic and defeatest attitude. You can lift every boat, perhaps not at the same time and yes you need to differentiate as much as possible to achieve a better outcome for all, you do not need to take the least common denominator approach to lift every boat.

TLDR: Have respect for the dead, gain perspective, challenge your assumptions, have some humility, remember your moral compass, and find innovative ways to lift every boat.

eastbloc said:

I say we clean the wall, and commission an artist to add puppies and rainbows to the mural to make everyone feel better about it.

And add a cronut! You know, to attract the hipsters.

Mamacita, I dont think 'hipster' means what you think it means.

Just tracked down the name of a hero who died tragically in the neighborhood trying to protect others. DAMON ALLEN - you can read about his senseless killing and his heroic saving of a girl from a fire on the Wired site. Thread: Damon Allen - Death of a Hero. Lets memorialize people like this who are an inspiration to all of us, and inform people of all the good that is in Crown Heights and records history. Memorials of beer bottles next to names of the dead - really? Give us some history, tell us why we should care.

tsarina said:

Just tracked down the name of a hero who died tragically in the neighborhood trying to protect others. DAMON ALLEN - you can read about his senseless killing and his heroic saving of a girl from a fire on the Wired site. Thread: Damon Allen - Death of a Hero. Lets memorialize people like this who are an inspiration to all of us, and inform people of all the good that is in Crown Heights and records history. Memorials of beer bottles next to names of the dead - really? Give us some history, tell us why we should care.

I agree with you on Damon Allen - someone like him deserves a street named after him, a memorial, or whatever way his family thinks his memory should be preserved. Personally I would want an education fund set up in my name and no need for any type of memorial.

Memorial of beer bottles is a personal reference. Myself I plan on having a martini glass etched into my tombstone with the words "Keep partying for me". While I totally understand where you are coming from Tsarina and agree 100% on positive influences on our community, as a child of the 70's and 80's I WANT to remember the way my community took a turn for the worse and the great people who brought it back to its glory. In order to look to a brighter future you cannot forget the dirty past. Just like the saying "out of sight out of mind". In a perfect world, someone would print out Montrose's post and affix it to this memorial.

I do notice that there are quite a few people with the last name Richardson on that memorial.