This site is closed to new comments and posts.

Notice: This site uses cookies to function.
If you are not comfortable with cookies then please don't browse this website.

park slope eruv - Page 2 — Brooklynian

park slope eruv

2

Comments

  • brooklynpotter
    brooklynpotter
    kensingtonmom wrote:
    Frankly I knew that was your underlying reaction to my post.

    I am not anti-semitic. I am anti-fundamentalist of ALL religions across the board. I think ALL fundamentalist religions are basically oppressive to women. I don't like the conservative direction the world is taking since the new uprising of fundamentalism in EVERY religion. And by the way, none of my Jewish friends follow the esoteric Jewish rules followed by the Orthodox--none of my friends wear wigs or walk in the holy lane. I think I can criticize an element of fanaticism without being anti-semitic frankly.
    you want to criticize? go ahead. i never said you shouldn't criticize. or be curious and wonder and ask questions and form opinions. but your metaphor was disgusting.

    and, your jewish friends aren't orthodox which is why they're not covering their heads. (do i think that's stupid? yes, i do. but it's not like being forced to wear a burka)
  • stacey
    stacey
    kosherdave wrote: Wow, I lived in Israel and went to the most orthodox of orthodox yeshivas, and I never heard of the Eruv. Hmmmppf!
    I think that an Eruv is not necessary in Israel - does anyone know?
  • steve
    steve
    armchair_warrior wrote:

    damn bro i grew up in brooklyn and not even jewish and i heard of it :P.

    than again i have a thing for jewish girls.
    No, No, No! C'mon Armchair, we Jews have enough problems already!
  • kosherdave
    kosherdave
    armchair_warrior wrote:
    damn bro i grew up in brooklyn and not even jewish and i heard of it :P.
    hahaha, I know, weird huh! I guess I've been living in some type of anti-eruv shell!
  • steve
    steve
    KM actually has a good point about lumping in the ultra orthodox with other fundamentalists. The ultra Orthodox have willingly aligned themseves with Fundamentalist Christians who believe that unless Biblical Israel is all controlled by the Jews, the Rapture cannot begin.

    Hey, has anyone read the left behind books? Are they any good if considered sci-fi? I've always been curious to read the first one.
  • kosherdave
    kosherdave
    armchair_warrior wrote: lets test peoples ;) jewishness ;) whats a zit zit hehe(how ever its spelled)
    usually tzit tzit but you can really spell it how you want, since hebrew words are often translated in various ways (look at Chanakuah for one).

    Anyway, the little tassles that hang down from Jewish men's undergarmet sticking out of their clothing that you can see on the orthodox, those are tzit tzit. Also found on a Talit. There's your yeshiva lesson for the day.
  • steve
    steve
    kosherdave wrote: [quote=armchair_warrior]
    damn bro i grew up in brooklyn and not even jewish and i heard of it :P.
    hahaha, I know, weird huh! I guess I've been living in some type of anti-eruv shell!

    You're not the only one KD. THe first I heard of it was a couple of years ago, an article about a Manhattan Eruv.

    Who the heck puts the string up I wonder?
  • kosherdave
    kosherdave
    stacey wrote: [quote=kosherdave] Wow, I lived in Israel and went to the most orthodox of orthodox yeshivas, and I never heard of the Eruv. Hmmmppf!
    I think that an Eruv is not necessary in Israel - does anyone know?

    Actually, now that I think about it, that's probably what the wall around the city works as. I lived in Jerusalem, it's walled in (well the "old city" part at least).
  • anonymous
    anonymous
    brooklynpotter wrote: and, your jewish friends aren't orthodox which is why they're not covering their heads. (do i think that's stupid? yes, i do. but it's not like being forced to wear a burka)
    Well we can agree to disagree because I don't see much difference between a mandated wig and a mandated burka except in the extremes of coverage? I mean they are both being dictated by the men and they are both forms of controllling the body so.... whatever.
  • kosherdave
    kosherdave
    steve wrote:
    Who the heck puts the string up I wonder?
    Really TALL Jews?
  • kosherdave
    kosherdave
    kensingtonmom wrote:
    ...I mean they are both being dictated by the men...
    well, technically they are being dictated by god, right? I mean, from an orthodox standpoint...
  • anonymous
    anonymous
    kosherdave wrote: well, technically they are being dictated by god, right? I mean, from an orthodox standpoint...
    Well true...just funny that some men think god would want to exclude 52% of the population. Which sadly brings me back to my atheism again.
  • kosherdave
    kosherdave
    kensingtonmom wrote:

    Well true...just funny that some men think god would want to exclude 52% of the population. Which sadly brings me back to my atheism again.
    I'm not sure they think god wants to exlude the women, per say. I doubt they really think about it with that kind of outside standpoint to begin with... in fact, I am not sure what they really are thinking...

    I should go on record saying it often does seem pretty misogynistic (at the orthodox level) to me too.
  • steve
    steve
    kosherdave wrote: [quote=steve]
    Who the heck puts the string up I wonder?
    Really TALL Jews?

    Is such a thing possible?
  • anonymous
    anonymous
    kosherdave wrote: [quote=kensingtonmom]

    Well true...just funny that some men think god would want to exclude 52% of the population. Which sadly brings me back to my atheism again.
    I'm not sure they think god wants to exlude the women, per say. I doubt they really think about it with that kind of outside standpoint to begin with... in fact, I am not sure what they really are thinking...

    I should go on record saying it often does seem pretty misogynistic (at the orthodox level) to me too.

    I guess not exclude--but give justification to control. Because lets face it--you can only really be sure who your mother is right? So to pass on your name and your property to the wrong offspring could be humiliating. But if you control women you are really just trying to control sexuality (because isn't that what those burkas do? those wigs and whatnot?) and then you can TRY to be sure of your legacy.

    Anyway this thread seems to about sci-fi now and I only delve as far as Star Trek on that subject.

    Mod note: Topic Split! Carry on...
  • brooklynjack
    brooklynjack
    stacey wrote: I think that an Eruv is not necessary in Israel - does anyone know?
    If you read the Wikipedia article there is a picture of an Eruv in Jerusalem, so it seems that yes, it is, well if you are a orthodox rabbinic jew
  • kosherdave
    kosherdave
    BrooklynJack wrote: [quote=stacey]I think that an Eruv is not necessary in Israel - does anyone know?
    If you read the Wikipedia article there is a picture of an Eruv in Jerusalem, so it seems that yes, it is, well if you are a orthodox rabbinic jew


    Yeah, that's true, however that's not the old city, that's the new, so maybe outside the walls one is needed and inside it is not? I'm speculating here. I'll ask Aish.
  • grandzu
    grandzu
    and, your jewish friends aren't orthodox which is why they're not covering their heads. (do i think that's stupid? yes, i do. but it's not like being forced to wear a burka)
    How do jews who are not orthodox suppose to cover their heads?

    What does a burka have to do with orthodox women shaving their head? Are the two being compared?

    The shaved head is 24/7. The burka is not.
  • h
    h
    grandzu wrote:
    and, your jewish friends aren't orthodox which is why they're not covering their heads. (do i think that's stupid? yes, i do. but it's not like being forced to wear a burka)
    How do jews who are not orthodox suppose to cover their heads?

    What does a burka have to do with orthodox women shaving their head? Are the two being compared?

    The shaved head is 24/7. The burka is not.
    Do Orthodox women shave their heads? I didn't think so. I thought they covered their heads because their hair is supposed to be something special and shared only with their husbands.......and I've also heard that the reasoning is not as sound today because the quality of available wigs has improved a lot (although I still see plenty of not-so-attractive ones) that it negates the purpose. Is that correct? Either way, I never understood women to have shaved heads under there.
  • stacey
    stacey
    Flexichick wrote: [quote=grandzu]
    and, your jewish friends aren't orthodox which is why they're not covering their heads. (do i think that's stupid? yes, i do. but it's not like being forced to wear a burka)
    How do jews who are not orthodox suppose to cover their heads?

    What does a burka have to do with orthodox women shaving their head? Are the two being compared?

    The shaved head is 24/7. The burka is not.
    Do Orthodox women shave their heads? I didn't think so. I thought they covered their heads because their hair is supposed to be something special and shared only with their husbands.......and I've also heard that the reasoning is not as sound today because the quality of available wigs has improved a lot (although I still see plenty of not-so-attractive ones) that it negates the purpose. Is that correct? Either way, I never understood women to have shaved heads under there.

    The Orthodox women I know had their hair cut very, very short. I never saw them without a wig or a kerchief on but it was never hanging over their ears. I do remember them telling me that there is a special bathing ceremony performed (I think) the day before a woman marries in which her head is "shaven" (that was the word used by the person explaining). I think the religion considers the hair "unclean".
  • anonymous
    anonymous
    grandzu wrote: What does a burka have to do with orthodox women shaving their head? Are the two being compared?

    The shaved head is 24/7. The burka is not.
    I made the comparison only in that they are both forms of controlling women or specifically controlling women's sexuality--the woman is ONLY to be attractive, gazed upon, whatever, by the husband in other words the master. They are both customs performed by the fundamentalist branches of mainstream religions.
  • brooklynjack
    brooklynjack
    kosherdave wrote: [quote=kensingtonmom]
    ...I mean they are both being dictated by the men...
    well, technically they are being dictated by god, right? I mean, from an orthodox standpoint...

    Hum, well you have to seperate biblical(torah) law from rabinic law (talmud). For instance the bible says not to seath the kid in the milk of the mother so the rabbies say sepperate meat and milk.

    But if you are a Karite jew, a branch of judaism insome ways more "orthodox" than the rabinic orthodox you don't do that. The Karites just say there ain't a chance that is going to happen so we don't sepparate. Karites only follow the law from the Torah and not the Talmud
  • brooklynpotter
    brooklynpotter
    i'll try to explain about the hair and wigs, if i can. (remember, i don't believe in this, just explaining)

    orthodox women cover their hair, the degree of what they cover depends on how religious they are. some wear hats or caps, some cover the whole thing, some wear a wig. the hair is, supposedly, something only the husband should see.

    i have heard that many of these women have very short hair or buzzed hair. i know some who do only because it gets awfully hot under that wig. it's not mandated to shave your head.

    as for the ritual "bathing" it's a dip in something called the mikvah. i believe the water is blessed, and the women walks in and dunks herself in over her head. contrary to popular belief, it's not about being dirty vs. clean. it's a ritual like any other. women who are getting married go to the mikvah before they marry. they also use the mikvah regularly. hair is not unclean.

    perhaps if you're all bored later you can come by and feel my head to see if i have horns. if i do, you can drop my karma points even further
  • rose
    rose
    stacey wrote:

    The Orthodox women I know had their hair cut very, very short. I never saw them without a wig or a kerchief on but it was never hanging over their ears. I do remember them telling me that there is a special bathing ceremony performed (I think) the day before a woman marries in which her head is "shaven" (that was the word used by the person explaining). I think the religion considers the hair "unclean".
    I don't think it is that women's hair is considered unclean; I think the idea is that men are driven wild with desire by the sight of a woman's hair :roll: ; therefore, married women cover their hair so as not to tempt men other than their husbands.

    Basically, it's the idea of modesty that you see in many religious traditions.
  • apollonia666
    apollonia666
    I gotta say, this has been one of the most educational threads I've seen in a while! It reminded me of a website I came across at least three of four years ago, written by a Hasidic rabbi, with an FAQ on Hasidim (just one subset of Orthodox, I know, but in case you're curious...) and tons of links for further exploration, so I did some Googling and it turns out the site's still up:

    http://www.pinenet.com/rooster/hasid1.html

    Might take a while for the page to load, but it's really fascinating, and the rabbi who maintains the site has a really accessible way of explaining things and sounds like a really nice, funny guy. Thought y'all might want to check it out.
  • brooklynpotter
    brooklynpotter
    Rose wrote:

    I don't think it is that women's hair is considered unclean; I think the idea is that men are driven wild with desire by the sight of a woman's hair :roll: ; therefore, married women cover their hair so as not to tempt men other than their husbands.
    actually, it's just that hair is a private thing for a husband to enjoy.
  • stacey
    stacey
    Thanks I wasnt really sure if the hair was considered unclean. I agree Appollonia it is really is an interesting subject.
  • sweet tea
    sweet tea
    i know that some of the custom of head shaving among lubavitch women is because you are supposed to be completely submerged in the mikvah and hair tends to float. it is not considered law but it is very commonly followed, as is the case with plenty of customs among all kind of people.

    and as for the elevators: the issue is that you cannot light a fire on shabbat. pressing switches is considered to be like striking a match, because of the electric current. there is nothing wrong with riding an elevator on shabbat, but there would be a problem with pressing the button.

    if you've never seen anna deveare smith's piece "fires in the mirror", i highly recommed it. it's the video version of a piece she put together after the crown heights riots. she interviewed a ton of people on all sides and then created a performance out of those interviews. it's amazing, and often quite funny, as with one character she performs of a lubavitch woman telling the story of convincing a black boy to come in and turn off her radio on shabbat. (a baby had turned it on, and none of the adults could turn it off, but while a non-jew could, they couldn't ask him directly.)
  • sweet tea
    sweet tea
    kensingtonmom wrote: [ Because lets face it--you can only really be sure who your mother is right?
    right, that's why you're only jewish (according to most) if your mother is.

    i admire your fiery defense of women's rights kmom, but i think you are being pretty harsh here. orthodox jews come in many different varieties, including plenty of women with high-powered, fulfilling careers, loving marriages, etc. different treatment for men and women doesn't have to mean mistreatment of women. of course, some jewish women really are held down, but i don't think eliminating the eruv will help any women -- they'll probably just have to carry more stuff on friday afternoon.

    and brooklynpotter, you get applause from me.
  • shishkab
    shishkab
    thanks for posting the webpage, apollonia. it was very interesting and enlightening!
Sign In or Register to comment.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Sign In

Categories