Is Daily Heights only for white people?
Comments
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Subject: Back in the day...
My family moved to Park Slope in 1965. We are "white" and at that time we were one of only two white families on my block (actually not 5th Street). Back then the last Italian and Irish families were still holding out against what they saw as an invasion of "black" families after World War II.
I personally remember seeing a sign on the corner of Garfield and 5th Avenue that said "N***** Don't Be Here After Dark!" (that's the block, between 4th and 5th Avenues where Al Capone was born) and at that time the last Italian families on that block took that sign seriously enough that they shot some kid who was there at night for the simple reason that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Since those days the racial mix of Park Slope has steadly changed with the obvious change being a tremendous influx of rich white people. That having been said, I definately do not think that Park Slope is 98% white...because it isn't. It is still the racially diverse and mixed neighborhood that it has been for over 20 years and that gives it more flavor than less diverse neighborhoods in other parts of Brooklyn. -
Anonymous wrote: [quote=saintjohnsnear5th][quote=Guest II]As for all the stats, about 100 people live on my upper slope park block, and I'd say 8 are of color (not differentiating between black/yellow etc).
Good for you. I think you'll agree that your block is not necessarily representative of the whole neighborhood. In my building there are 6 tenants; two are white, one is black, one is Filipino, one is biracial (white and black) and one is of Chinese background. All are pretty affluent with two of them being Harvard grads, one a Princeton grad and one a Cambridge University grad.
Who is talking about affluence? I thought we were talking about the racial breakdown of PS? And, in my experience living here for 20 years on a street right in Center Slope, I would have to say that your building is not representative.
Do you know how many of my neighbors in this building over the last 20 years have been black? None. Same goes for Hispanic. I have had 3 Asian neighbors over the years. And, this is just in my building where many people have moved in and out oh these many years.
My point is that Park Slope is an AFFLUENT area and that affluent people of all races live here, including affluent blacks. As for you harping on and on about the lack of people in your building, again - your building is not representative of Park Slope - clearly. In north Slope especially there are a lot of blacks and Hispanics who own their buildings. Why is that such an upsetting prospect for you? -
Subject: Re: Back in the day...
The 5th Street Boys wrote: My family moved to Park Slope in 1965. We are "white" and at that time we were one of only two white families on my block (actually not 5th Street). Back then the last Italian and Irish families were still holding out against what they saw as an invasion of "black" families after World War II.
I personally remember seeing a sign on the corner of Garfield and 5th Avenue that said "N***** Don't Be Here After Dark!" (that's the block, between 4th and 5th Avenues where Al Capone was born) and at that time the last Italian families on that block took that sign seriously enough that they shot some kid who was there at night for the simple reason that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Since those days the racial mix of Park Slope has steadly changed with the obvious change being a tremendous influx of rich white people. That having been said, I definately do not think that Park Slope is 98% white...because it isn't. It is still the racially diverse and mixed neighborhood that it has been for over 20 years and that gives it more flavor than less diverse neighborhoods in other parts of Brooklyn.
Thanks for posting that interesting history - I had no idea Al Capone was born around here. I also agree with you about Park Slope very obviously not being 98% white. Some of the posters here seem to be getting Park Slope confused with the Upper East side!! Park Slope STILL is home to plenty of writers, gay couples, ethnic minorities... -
saintjohnsnear5th wrote: [quote=Anonymous][quote=saintjohnsnear5th][quote=Guest II]As for all the stats, about 100 people live on my upper slope park block, and I'd say 8 are of color (not differentiating between black/yellow etc).
Good for you. I think you'll agree that your block is not necessarily representative of the whole neighborhood. In my building there are 6 tenants; two are white, one is black, one is Filipino, one is biracial (white and black) and one is of Chinese background. All are pretty affluent with two of them being Harvard grads, one a Princeton grad and one a Cambridge University grad.
Who is talking about affluence? I thought we were talking about the racial breakdown of PS? And, in my experience living here for 20 years on a street right in Center Slope, I would have to say that your building is not representative.
Do you know how many of my neighbors in this building over the last 20 years have been black? None. Same goes for Hispanic. I have had 3 Asian neighbors over the years. And, this is just in my building where many people have moved in and out oh these many years.
My point is that Park Slope is an AFFLUENT area and that affluent people of all races live here, including affluent blacks. As for you harping on and on about the lack of people in your building, again - your building is not representative of Park Slope - clearly. In north Slope especially there are a lot of blacks and Hispanics who own their buildings. Why is that such an upsetting prospect for you?
You are the only one around here getting upset. I am not upset at all about anything. Go enjoy your neighborhood and your weekend and stop trying to fabricate things to be upset about. I am done. -
Anonymous wrote: [quote=saintjohnsnear5th][quote=Anonymous][quote=saintjohnsnear5th][quote=Guest II]As for all the stats, about 100 people live on my upper slope park block, and I'd say 8 are of color (not differentiating between black/yellow etc).
Good for you. I think you'll agree that your block is not necessarily representative of the whole neighborhood. In my building there are 6 tenants; two are white, one is black, one is Filipino, one is biracial (white and black) and one is of Chinese background. All are pretty affluent with two of them being Harvard grads, one a Princeton grad and one a Cambridge University grad.
Who is talking about affluence? I thought we were talking about the racial breakdown of PS? And, in my experience living here for 20 years on a street right in Center Slope, I would have to say that your building is not representative.
Do you know how many of my neighbors in this building over the last 20 years have been black? None. Same goes for Hispanic. I have had 3 Asian neighbors over the years. And, this is just in my building where many people have moved in and out oh these many years.
My point is that Park Slope is an AFFLUENT area and that affluent people of all races live here, including affluent blacks. As for you harping on and on about the lack of people in your building, again - your building is not representative of Park Slope - clearly. In north Slope especially there are a lot of blacks and Hispanics who own their buildings. Why is that such an upsetting prospect for you?
You are the only one around here getting upset. I am not upset at all about anything. Go enjoy your neighborhood and your weekend and stop trying to fabricate things to be upset about. I am done.
Interesting that you choose to post in in this particular thread as "Guest" when you are actually a forum member.
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saintjohnsnear5th wrote: [quote=Anonymous]You are the only one around here getting upset. I am not upset at all about anything. Go enjoy your neighborhood and your weekend and stop trying to fabricate things to be upset about. I am done.
Interesting that you choose to post in in this particular thread as "Guest" when you are actually a forum member.
That may or may not be true, but FWIW, the IP that guest is posting from has never been used by a registered board member to post. -
I was looking at the PS 2004 census numbers someone posted (60% white, 24% hispanic, etc) and from living here 10 years and frequently wandering around the neighborhood, I can say those percentages look pretty accurate to me. But that doesn't mean that the neighborhood FEELS that way. For instance, are the patrons 24% hispanic when you grab a burger at Bonnie's? Is it a 8% black crowd at Commonwealth? No, of course not. But do I care? Nope. Would I, as a person of color, like to see more diversity in the places I frequent in the 'hood? Sure. But I'm not getting bent out of shape over it, just as long as deliberate exclusionary tactics are not invloved.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we can all live in PS and experience it quite differently. (Being childless and only in the 'hood at night, I never come in contact with the disrespectfully monikered "stroller mafia", but I can't pretend they don't exist.) Our neighborhood's diversity is real but you can live here forever and escape most of it if you choose to. -
Subject: Re: Is Daily Heights only for white people?
saintjohnsnear5th wrote: I've noticed that so many posts and replies seem to assume that the original poster is white. And their seems to be a general assumption that certain concerns (having too much money, living in Park Slope, having overprivileged kids) only effect whites and not blacks or Latinos.
There seems to be a general consensus that whites are overprivileged and therefore must feel guilty and that blacks and other non-whites must be preserved in order to make the neighborhoods authentic and quench the white guilt.
But it must be said, I know quite a few pretty broke, disadvantaged white folks in the neighborhood and conversely I know quite a few rather privileged local blacks...
It does not change the fact that there is surely a race based vibe. Also, you all have too much time on your hands. I guess people assume you must be unemployed&therefore being taken care of by someone...ie..laptops every where at all hours of the day. -
what i'm white, yes finally i'm part of the club.
/dances and screams. "I'm a white man, praise white jesus".
/looks into mirror
noooooooooo its not fair!!! you suck for giving me false hope. me and uncle ruckus are not amused. -
Enter a year/ decade and race, then zoom in:
http://www.socialexplorer.com/pub/maps/map3.aspx?g=1&animation=true -
OK, I'll bite...
Race is and always has been a dead issue...it's all economics...black, white, yellow, brown, whatever...the issue is economics...
I come from a farm town of about 120 people, but have lived most of my adult life in very diverse urban areas -- Buffalo, Detroit and Brooklyn. I grew up in an all white community, but I would rather raise my kids in a racially mixed community, largely to prove the point that people are people. Where I grew up, status had to do with economics and nothing else, since there was nothing else.
I've experienced poverty, and it is completely color-blind. I've seen wealth and it too is color blind. My brother and his family live on government-supported and subsidized services, while my family does quite well here in Brooklyn. Is it because he's black and I'm white?
Nope -- it's economics. Duh.
Once people of whatever color get over the pigment thing and focus on economics, then we'll get some focus on the issues. Economics fuels everything -- education, careers, healthcare, access to culture, poltics -- but most people can't trouble themselves to think so largely and have to fall back on a color pallette. Too bad, as this school-yard attitude just distracts from getting anything done, thus self-condemning large groups to a death-spiral dearth of ideas and solutions. -
right on, its always been money.
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sterling2000 wrote: OK, I'll bite...
What a nice sentiment - if you really believe that people-of-color play on a level playing field and that there is equal access for all. Here's some economic reality for you...
Race is and always has been a dead issue...it's all economics...black, white, yellow, brown, whatever...the issue is economics...
I come from a farm town of about 120 people, but have lived most of my adult life in very diverse urban areas -- Buffalo, Detroit and Brooklyn. I grew up in an all white community, but I would rather raise my kids in a racially mixed community, largely to prove the point that people are people. Where I grew up, status had to do with economics and nothing else, since there was nothing else.
I've experienced poverty, and it is completely color-blind. I've seen wealth and it too is color blind. My brother and his family live on government-supported and subsidized services, while my family does quite well here in Brooklyn. Is it because he's black and I'm white?
Nope -- it's economics. Duh.
Once people of whatever color get over the pigment thing and focus on economics, then we'll get some focus on the issues. Economics fuels everything -- education, careers, healthcare, access to culture, poltics -- but most people can't trouble themselves to think so largely and have to fall back on a color pallette. Too bad, as this school-yard attitude just distracts from getting anything done, thus self-condemning large groups to a death-spiral dearth of ideas and solutions.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/opinion/17wed2.html?ref=opinion -
Race is and always has been a dead issue...it's all economics...black, white, yellow, brown, whatever...the issue is economics...
Know what it's like to get followed in a store no matter how well you're dressed? Happens to me all the time and I'm 35. Know what it's like to see white women cross the street in the middle of the day when they see you coming? How about getting followed by police for no reason while driving? Happens to me several times a year and I have a perfect driving record. No tints. Ever been stopped on the street and searched by a cops while walking in a nice neighborhood at night? How about descrimination at a job? You probably haven't seen groups of Black men rounded up by cops daily on Brooklyn streets and rousted, searched and humiliated, I suppose.
Race "is and has always been a dead issue" to you because you are white, and have nothing to lose by by feeling that way. Your beliefs must make it pretty easy for you to live in Brooklyn. Not all white people feel the way you do, but I have come across many who share your perception, as well as Blacks. I consider people like you as dangerous as open racists.
*To the rest of the DH'ers, apologies for steering this thread in this direction but I had to respond. -
And thank you for doing so!
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liftandcut wrote:
white women cross the street in front of me all the time LOL. that point i think you're reading into things. you perceived more than most.Race is and always has been a dead issue...it's all economics...black, white, yellow, brown, whatever...the issue is economics...
Know what it's like to get followed in a store no matter how well you're dressed? Happens to me all the time and I'm 35. Know what it's like to see white women cross the street in the middle of the day when they see you coming? How about getting followed by police for no reason while driving? Happens to me several times a year and I have a perfect driving record. No tints. Ever been stopped on the street and searched by a cops while walking in a nice neighborhood at night? How about descrimination at a job? You probably haven't seen groups of Black men rounded up by cops daily on Brooklyn streets and rousted, searched and humiliated, I suppose.
Race "is and has always been a dead issue" to you because you are white, and have nothing to lose by by feeling that way. Your beliefs must make it pretty easy for you to live in Brooklyn. Not all white people feel the way you do, but I have come across many who share your perception, as well as Blacks. I consider people like you as dangerous as open racists.
*To the rest of the DH'ers, apologies for steering this thread in this direction but I had to respond.
stop letting race getting in the way of self development. its not the only thing in the world. yet alot of people are hangup on it and won't let it go.
trust me i been spat at, beaten, chased, and taunted while growing up asian in white and black and hispanic areas of brooklyn. there was no china towns or asian areas here in brooklyn before. best revenge or snub to a racist would be to make something out of yourself and rub it in their faces.
cops stop me in ghettos at night sometimes. after jobs. they don't think i belong there. they would ask me what am i doing in the area. i usually tell them i had to delivery something etc.. they check the van and let me go.
its about economic class today. i would say it used to be race. but race isn't a big deal as class.
alot of times i been treated like shit due to race and alot of times i been treated like shit due to class. especially by poor people. where they are the most vocal and least self controlling of any economic group. -
#1 I've been stopped multiple times in different places, and I'm white. A couple weeks back I got stopped for meditating in a park in NJ. "We got calls of a suspicious person, and it is you!" I had to justify my presence in a public park eight ways from Tuesday, because my appearance didn't fit into the upperclass area (I was there on a job). I've been stopped in black areas because of being white, because obviously if a white person is in black area they must be buying drugs. Right? Whatever. My point here is that this market is far from cornered.
#2 Anyone who thinks that racism doesn't exist is foolish.
#3 Anyone who thinks that all whites or all blacks or ALL of any class/creed/color is racist is also foolish.
#4 Anyone who blames their current circumstance in life in the US on a single item, be it their parents, their skin color, etc. is most likely wrong.
So, to wind up here, my considered opinion is that there is a middle road here. Not everything that happens to a black man happens because of his color. Which is not to say that things _don't_ happen to him because of his color. The true racism we speak out against, and try to repair as a society. And, as a society, we recognize that some things are just bullshit and have nothing to do with race. We ought to fix those things too.
Peace, love, harmony, and may you live your life at ease and all that jazz.
P.S. http://www.overheardinnewyork.com/archives/012101.html
http://www.overheardinnewyork.com/archives/012096.htmlThree-year-old girl to no one in particular: The white man is everywhere. [Mother looks at her, puzzled. Girl gazes up at crosswalk sign] The white man tells us when to go.
--86th & 2nd
Overheard by: Damn the man! -
Not everything that happens to a black man happens because of his color.
True, but Black people know when their color is the cause. It's something that many of us learn to recognize as early on as childhood, and it is often difficult to convey to whites. Why does there have to be a "middle road," by the way, and how can you possibly qualify a Black person's life? -
liftandcut wrote:
There has to be a middle road because of what you acknowledged above, namely that not everything happens to a black person because of their color. Which isn't to say that nothing happens to a black person because of their color. That is pretty much it.Not everything that happens to a black man happens because of his color.
True, but Black people know when their color is the cause. It's something that many of us learn to recognize as early on as childhood, and it is often difficult to convey to whites. Why does there have to be a "middle road," by the way, and how can you possibly qualify a Black person's life? -
There has to be a middle road because of what you acknowledged above, namely that not everything happens to a black person because of their color.
Stating that there is a middle road implies that there is a choice to walk that middle road all of the time. Since that is not possible, what is the point of making such statements? My writing that not everything happens to Blacks because of their color has nothing to do with your middle road, it's just my life experience. Maybe there "has" to be a middle road for you because it makes you feel better. I can only speculate. -
You are misinterpreting my point. So be it.
In the meantime, enjoy one of my favorite short films from long ago.
Black People Hate Me and They Hate My Glasses -
Black People Hate Me and They Hate My Glasses
Ok, so the relevance of this video collection of worthless prattle is...
The director accomplished, uh, what?
Only thing I can say is that it makes "Do the Right Thing" look like a brilliant piece of movie making. -
Anonymous wrote: I do give you this, I do not think of Asian people as people of color, my bad.
There are many Asians out there who don't consider themselves "people of color" either, to my uttder amusement and dismay. And this is the curse of the "model minority" myth: Asians are not thought of as minorites by other minority groups (blacks, Hispanics) and they will never be considered to be white enough by whites. Therefore they are despised by both minorities and whites. No wonder there is so much self-loathing among Asians in this country.
In the interest of full disclosure, I say this as an Asian male who immigrated to the U.S. at the age of five grew up here. And no doubt I have benefitted from the opportunities afforded Asians in this society to pull ourselves up by our proverbial bootstraps, and I acknowledge that those opportunites are not always available to ther minorty groups. So I do understand the animosity that some blacks and Hispanics have toward Asians. Though any kind of preconceived notion people may have toward an ethnic group is wrong. Racism is racism regardless of where it comes from and where it's directed.
I agree that these days economics really is more the issue than enthicity. -
And no doubt I have benefitted from the opportunities afforded Asians in this society to pull ourselves up by our proverbial bootstraps, and I acknowledge that those opportunites are not always available to ther minorty groups. So I do understand the animosity that some blacks and Hispanics have toward Asians.
To add to what you wrote, a lot of that animosity comes from the pathological tension between Blacks and some Asian business owners in predominantly Black neighborhoods. For example, when Korean markets are open in Black neighborhoods, Black patrons often feel like they are treated like potential shoplifters, and with disrespect. With no other place to shop, these patrons often feel forced to buy from people who the patrons perceive as hateful towards them. This fuels resentment and animosity on both sides. The same goes for fastfood Chinese Restaurants in Black neighborhoods. I've seen it so many times. A Black person will come in and bark a food order at a Chinese person behind bullet-proof glass. The Chinese person reacts to that with negativity, and it happens over and over again. Often it all starts with a simple language barrier. It's unfortunate. -
Livetotravel wrote: What a nice sentiment - if you really believe that people-of-color play on a level playing field and that there is equal access for all. Here's some economic reality for you...
That you quote economic stats proves my point.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/opinion/17wed2.html?ref=opinion
I believe people being steered into bad loans is a by-product of economics in terms of economics equalling access to education, knowledge of loan processes, navigating bureaucracies and securing appropriate paid counsel from lawyers, etc.
If this study was equalized across household incomes, I would dare say you would find few hispanic or black households valued at $150-250K a year falling for bad mortgage terms. -
liftandcut wrote:
Yes, experienced all the above -- with suspicion from cops, women and jobs. Many times.Race is and always has been a dead issue...it's all economics...black, white, yellow, brown, whatever...the issue is economics...
Know what it's like to get followed in a store no matter how well you're dressed? Happens to me all the time and I'm 35. Know what it's like to see white women cross the street in the middle of the day when they see you coming? How about getting followed by police for no reason while driving? Happens to me several times a year and I have a perfect driving record. No tints. Ever been stopped on the street and searched by a cops while walking in a nice neighborhood at night? How about descrimination at a job? You probably haven't seen groups of Black men rounded up by cops daily on Brooklyn streets and rousted, searched and humiliated, I suppose.
Race "is and has always been a dead issue" to you because you are white, and have nothing to lose by by feeling that way. Your beliefs must make it pretty easy for you to live in Brooklyn. Not all white people feel the way you do, but I have come across many who share your perception, as well as Blacks. I consider people like you as dangerous as open racists.
*To the rest of the DH'ers, apologies for steering this thread in this direction but I had to respond.
Danger is in the harm people do to their own perceived demographic and the world at large through an oversimplication based on a color pallette. Admittedly, it's easier to understand the shades of a color wheel versus the complex interactions of economics and all its associated +/-'s. But then again, easy doesn't necessarily always mean better.
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