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5th Ave. Committee plans housing for junkies at 575 5th ave. - Page 3 — Brooklynian

5th Ave. Committee plans housing for junkies at 575 5th ave.

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  • alafairnadia wrote:


    yes, you can be mugged/raped/killed/whatever anywhere or at any time, but the chances of it happening are higher if you're surrounded by people more apt to do bad things.
    Well there are 11 registered sex offenders in 11215 zip code right now. These people will not be as monitored as the former drug addicts, or homeless people that the housing is proposed for.

    But instead of using the buzzword "sex offender", it is true what LostinGreenwood says, everyone needs to known more facts. I wouldn't want it RIGHT next door to me, but I would have no problem with it on my block. And can't the community request no paroled sex offenders? If that is the case, what is the problem?

    I can't get all weepy about overinflated property values (as I can't get weepy over kids interrupting someone's coffee).
  • escap wrote: [quote=MichaelKeys]
    Personally, in very simple terms, I feel it's "neighborhood fabric" thing. The devil you know and all that. And regardless, why should people--particularly families--be displaced unnecesarily? Especially if there are school-aged kids involved.
    Your point about "demographic ebb and flow" being a catalyst "to create diversity and exposure to different cultures and groups, hopefully leading to greater tolerance in the city" is truly a wonderful thing. And I welcome it. But before the Y and Z families move into the 'hood, I'd want that nice Mr. X and his wife and kids to be able stay here for another 10 years and not have to leave and move into a neighborhood where they are not comfortable, but have no recourse. Shouldn't we take care of our own first? I know I'd like to.
    Well, here's the problem with that. Basically, you're saying the government should intervene in the housing market to protect current residents of an area by somehow making the same housing cheaper for them than it would be for new entrants. But what about if the original residents were middle class, or upper class? The city has limited resources, and I'd much rather see housing subsidies going to the poor than to the middle or upper class. Indeed, I'd rather subsidies went to a poor person to help him move into a different neighborhood, than to a middle-class person to help him stay in his original neighborhood. Doing otherwise strikes me as a blatantly unfair use of of public money and goes contrary to the whole concept of the city intervening to help out the less fortunate. Also, as I alluded to before, you would be creating incentives for people to stay put and would therefore encourage static, exclusive communities where outsiders were unwelcome.

    Finally, you'd essentially be creating two housing markets--the unsubsidized one for outsiders would necessarily be far more expensive than it would otherwise be, and this would discourage people from moving into the city. Since we all know that the constant inflow of people moving into this city, both immigrants from abroad and Americans coming to NY to pursue their hopes and dreams, is what makes NYC so amazing, I would never want to do anything to discriminate against these entrants or to dissuade them from moving here and investing in our city.

    We absolutely agree, escap. I'd like to protect current residents that NEED it. In other words, working class people/families that are being out-priced, rent-wise. Not subsidies for middle and/or upper class residents. (Of which there don't seem to be that many percentage-wise in this part of the neighborhood.) Although it wasn't clear in my post it's what I was implying.

    Lately, we've witnessed numerous properties in this area being torn down to build multiple luxury dwellings in their stead. But this is private property and I respect the owners’ rights to do what they want with it, regardless of my feelings to the contrary. Which is why, if there is going to be govt involvement in housing, it has to be in a manner that ensures residents that need certain assistance in this realm, the chance to be able to afford living here. And if the appropriate current residents get first pick, even better. I think we can both agree on that.
    escap wrote: (For balance, let me also say that I do largely agree with your argument above about the consequences 575 5th Ave. I'm not sure exactly what to make of that issue, but I definitely think you made some very good points.)
    Thank you. Yeah, it's not an easy thing to figure out, perhaps, but first and foremost the safety and quality of life of the neighborhood should be paramount. Once the lack of a threat from this influx of new residents has been reasonably ascertained, good people should be welcomed into the neighborhood, regardless of age, financial, racial, social or medical condition. Fear of people for any of the above reasons is irrational. But to naively look the other way at the potential risks of inviting a possibly recidivist, destabilizing, criminal element into the area, in the name of some kind of misguided social justice, is quite foolish and can cause irreparable damage.
  • in any case, let's all think of different ways to prevent or undermine it's progress. since ultimately it's a really bad idea.

    then we can raise our kids in this neighborhood with a lower percentage of "section 8 loons" and noble recovering addicts in the environment.

    whaddya say! doesn't that make the most sense!

    why doesn't the city put it on schermerhorn or livingston street. let the bureaucrats live with their mess. Oh, just cuz they USE their parking lots, that's not cool!
  • self-serving cynic wrote:
    then we can raise our kids in this neighborhood with a lower percentage of "section 8 loons" and noble recovering addicts in the environment.
    cynic, since that "phrase" came from one my my posts i'd like to address it.

    if you go back through my posts over the past few months, you'll find what the regular readers of this board already know: i have a very difficult situation above me that involves harassment by a mentally ill section 8 rent stabilized tenant. read: we can never get rid of her. she's been here since time began, and stayed when the building went coop.

    i do not think all people who are section 8, or recovering addicts, are bad people. i think everyone deserves a nice place to live. but down here in south slope, we already live with the failed (my opinion) women's shelter situation. we don't need the possibility of any more trouble.
  • friendlypitbull wrote: What is your issue with 231 5th - I think a large % of owners and merchants do a horrible job of making 5th ave attractive (garbage everywhere, unneccesary full roll-down gates, graffitti not cleaned promptly) but I dont notice that 231 is any better or worse.
    I used that building as an example to see how they operate their properties. By the way, alot of owners on 5th avenue in that area has had problems with FAC about that building.
    I spoke to one of their managers about the characters they have in that building. His answer, I quote," They're animals, what are you going to do."
    If that is the attitude that their building and site managers have, then shouldn't everyone be informed about how they approach things?
  • brooklynpotter wrote: [quote=self-serving cynic]
    then we can raise our kids in this neighborhood with a lower percentage of "section 8 loons" and noble recovering addicts in the environment.
    cynic, since that "phrase" came from one my my posts i'd like to address it.

    if you go back through my posts over the past few months, you'll find what the regular readers of this board already know: i have a very difficult situation above me that involves harassment by a mentally ill section 8 rent stabilized tenant. read: we can never get rid of her. she's been here since time began, and stayed when the building went coop.

    i do not think all people who are section 8, or recovering addicts, are bad people. i think everyone deserves a nice place to live. but down here in south slope, we already live with the failed (my opinion) women's shelter situation. we don't need the possibility of any more trouble.
    BP you shouldn't allow a negative personal episode to taint your views on the benefits of this project for the community as a whole -- and yes. that community includes criminals.
    and it includes poor people.

    If you feel strongly enough about it you should attend the meeting tonight
  • q, the thing with my upstairzicka hasn't tainted my view, i was just explaining why i used that term.

    i have to work late tonight on my "art and craft thingys" so i unfortunately won't be able to make it. damn.
  • brooklynpotter wrote:
    i have to work late tonight on my "art and craft thingys" so i unfortunately won't be able to make it. damn.
    You still have the ability to write letters to CB7 and BP Markowitz, since the ULURP application will not move to City Planning's review for at least a month.

    When/if you write to CB7 or Marty, make sure to outline your issues in a point by point fashion, and reference the location, your location, etc.

    Helps separate the legitimate letters of concern (thou all are legit, right?) from rants.

    My advise...
  • thanks, lost, i'll do that.

    btw: do you know what's going on at the sites on 15th street? work seems to have stopped, and there has to be a story there. (i ask only because i think you're one of the people on the south south slope board)
  • brooklynpotter wrote:
    btw: do you know what's going on at the sites on 15th street? work seems to have stopped, and there has to be a story there. (i ask only because i think you're one of the people on the south south slope board)
    Which site on 15th? (since there are so many).

    Yes, I might be one of those folks ;)
  • the ones between 7th-8th, the ones that have destroyed the local buildings and created sinkholes
  • 406-408 15th St, eh?

    Currently the project has been stopped. DOB is working with the developer to "amend things" (yeah right.). The neighbors are working with an attorney...

    That and the owner is being brought up on criminal charges, but you didn't hear that from me ;)

    Oops! Guess you did. :twisted:
  • nicholas george kotsonis wrote: Making studio apts means that the housing is almost always temporary. 1 or 2 bedroom apartments, and the person may make it their permanent home instead of a place to get their lives sorted out and then move on to hopefully better things. plus studios are easer to maintain and properly oversee. They are also the fastest to turnover, which means that more individuals can take advantage of the program.
    Just coincidentally, I happened to see a piece on NY1 relating to this. Part of the preliminary Mayor's Management report found that the number of homeless families has risen 24%, while the number of single adults decreaded by 6%. Looks like the Dept. of Homeless Services will adjust its programs accordingly. So maybe the plans for the building will be modified as well...

    http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=1&aid=66825
  • It has been on my mind why they chose a plot of land that sits at the edge of south slope. Makes me wonder if this was a matter of convenience and land availability, or because if they proposed it being in north slope, more residents would raise hell. While I must admit that I'm glad it's not being built near me, i have friends who live there and I am concerned..
  • Just back from the CB7 public hearing. Went well, good dialog.

    More tomorrow.

    ilovecarbs, PS. the North Slope/CB6 has hundreds of units of "supportive housing for low income residents."
  • Seems that the South Park Slope Community Group / Concerned Citizens of Greenwood Hts. meeting on Tuesday may have assuaged many of the concerns and controversy over Fifth Avenue Committee's (FAC) and HPD's plans for 575 5th Ave.

    Here's my POV on the latest hearing...

    CB7's public forum started off at approx. 6:30 pm with another "fine tuned" presentation by HPD, FAC and FAC's architect. FAC's executive director, Michelle de La Uz, fielded questions from CB7 members first, ranging from parking issues, FAC's business practices and section of this "type of plan," screening of the applicants, community input, tenant selection for the 2000 sq. ft. retail space and again asked for clarification for some of the misconceptions that are floating out in the community (ex-offenders, substance abuse, level of mental disabilities, security, etc.).

    The biggest topic, and learning experience for FAC, CB7 and the community is earlier community input was definitely needed for this project...and something that MUST be done in future affordable housing projects within CB7. With 4th Ave. upzoned with a 20% affordable housing component, John Burns, CB7 Land Use Chair, was quick to point out that this wasn't the last time we'd see FAC coming before the Board.

    Then the forum was opened to the public. St. Michael-Emmanuel's church was full and over 40 folks had signed up to speak, including a rep from CM Gonzalez's office and CM DeBlasio. The meeting went on beyond 9:00 pm...

    What became very clear (and interesting) was that FAC had learned a few things with their first two meetings (mini-meeting with several CB7 members 2 weeks ago and the SPSCG/CCGH meeting Tuesday): stack the deck with positive examples of how "supportive housing" works. The majority of the initial speakers were either FAC advocates, associates of FAC (through other not for profit agencies) and even a tenant of their Warren St. facility. A neighbor to the Warren St. facility gave a short and sweet thumbs up to FAC's programs and asked the CB to welcome this project into the community.

    What we did not see where folks speaking out against the project. While the CB expressed concerns that needed to be addressed, the "public" seemed to have been satisfied with FAC's answers to their questions from SPSCG/CCGH meeting on Tuesday. We did not see many of the same folks from Tuesday. Very telling, in my opinion. In fact, of the 40 folks signed up to speak, on 2 spoke in opposition, specifically focusing on parking.

    The full Board is to vote on Wed. 02/21/07, but I have the feeling the project will move forward...stated in my humble opinion :)
  • I don't like junkies. But that's just me.
  • IMBY has a nice, in-depth examination of this project that has lots of specific info (including a rendering), and addresses/dispels a lot of the rumors and concerns voiced above:

    http://imby.blogspot.com/2007/02/575-5th-avenue-ulurp-application.html

    some choice remarks...
    FAC's strong focus on community organizing and their commitment to the rights of low-income people to control their own destinies... Their belief that volunteer efforts of local residents in collaboration with non-profits can bring forth beneficial changes in their community is shared by the residents of the South Slope, Windsor Terrace, and Green Wood Heights. FAC's recent behavior seems to be in direct contradiction to their core values in the way in which the plans for 575 have apparently been "revealed" fully formed, to the public. There is nothing left to discuss. The local residents have a prior history of being terribly disrespected by private developers in the area, especially on 15th and 16th Streets. If the residents feel that they have been left out of this public housing development discussion, than FAC needs to examine what went wrong, at least from a public relations standpoint. Maybe next time send out invitations to the party a little earlier.

    So far they have done a great job at dispelling myths and misconceptions in regards to our unfounded fears about who will occupy the building. The great majority of local citizens are not anticipating a Trojan horse filled with ex con pedophiles, to be set loose on their unsuspecting children. [could've fooled me by reading this thread...] This building will not be a temporary shelter like the Armory up the slope on 8th Avenue. The new occupants will be capable of paying their own way to the best of their abilities.
  • Very telling, in my opinion. In fact, of the 40 folks signed up to speak, on 2 spoke in opposition, specifically focusing on parking.

    The full Board is to vote on Wed. 02/21/07, but I have the feeling the project will move forward...stated in my humble opinion
    This is great news. Thanks for the update. This project is of critical importance to the community. I'm glad the CB is asking questions, but hopefully this project will get approval tomorrow.

    Can I just say - thank God for the 5th Ave. Committee. Few organiztions have done more to help make Park Slope around 5th Avenue what it is today. I would encourage anyone reading this thread to go onto their website and learn about what they have done and continue to do to promote affordable housing.
  • Hey I live on a block where housing for single abused mothers with their babies live.. trying to avoid their male friends who were supposedly threatening or stalking them or whatever. How this facility got placed here with no input from the community probably has to do with the property being owned by the church. Hey.. I am a baby boomer, summer of love hippie now grown up but on a summer evening when there is a convention of mothers with infants( who should be asleep 3 hrs ago) and young men all standing outside at night cursing at each other my liberalism goes out the window. remember the Phil ochs song... Love me I am a Liberal?

    I don't know the details of this specific facility but I find myself so much less open to "live and let live" after feeling the effect of various other facilities that have opened in the Slope.. And this is from someone who managed subsidized housing in this city for decades.. with dedication to the idea that affordable housing allowed people a jump start to improve their lives and society.
  • I think that drug addicts aren't so bad. Sex abusers too. As a writer it adds a bit of grit to my life that I never had the chance to experience in Iowa.

    Elimating this project robs me of my right to have a hellish atmoshpere from which I can gain a sense of inspiration, especially as I am too afraid to step out of my cozy middle class lifestyle.

    R. Mutt
  • vapid writer, nice vapid thought.

    Don't lose your day job, OK? Try to post on topic...less sarcasm. Ask your creating writing Prof about that one ;)
  • hey vapid writer, your post was on topic enough for me.

    don't let these posh not-for-profit cosmopolitan goody two-shoes get all righteous on you with their "ooh, look at me, i'm a fellow in the waspy public advocacy foundation from the pantywaist school of law"

    you be as sarcastic as you want to be. furthermore, i would encourage you to enjoy a moderately excessive quantity of wine or perhaps gin before you post!
  • When I moved out a week and a half ago (I was living down the street from the proposed site) the 5th Ave committee had people on the street all "can I talk to you for a moment about greenpeace" style. When I said no the woman got really aggressive and followed me for about a half block. I finally stopped and explained that there was a moving van in front of my house waiting for me and she backed off. It was strange--you think rather than accosting people out on the street that they'd make some sort of central area where people could come to them if they had questions--there's empty storefronts and tables that could be set up and whatever.
  • Hey, isn't this the place next door to the laundromat that I hate?
  • erikka wrote: When I moved out a week and a half ago (I was living down the street from the proposed site) the 5th Ave committee had people on the street all "can I talk to you for a moment about greenpeace" style. When I said no the woman got really aggressive and followed me for about a half block. I finally stopped and explained that there was a moving van in front of my house waiting for me and she backed off.
    That's just weird. There's nothing wrong with trying to get a message out, but harassing people is a poor way to get their support for a project.
  • I think Jackie's 5th Amendment is going to be seeing some more business.
  • A recap from one of the news groups on yesterday's CPC hearing. Y'all should read...
    I attended yesterdays ULURP public hearing at the City Planning Commission in Manhattan for 575 5th Avenue. This was the third stop in the ULURP process, and one that counts almost a much as the final vote my City Council.

    The attendance was tremendous. I'd guess that there were approx 150-200 folks from the community (for and against the proposal), FAC, rep's from our elected officials (including CM Bill DeBlasio making an appearance).

    Here is my recap and take away from the day...sorry, it's a long one.

    Due to the overwhelming response for folks to speak, Chair Amanda Burden decided to alternate between those folks who were "for the project" and those "apposed tho the project." First Michelle De La Uz of FAC, their architect and a representative from HPD gave their testimony. As as in the past, they did a decent job (given the time alloted 3 mins + and questions from the Commissioners) discussing the proposed project. No need to recap that here again...

    On behalf of the CCGH, I gave very specific testimony as to the Borough Presidents "recommendation" (after his disapproval of the project--advisory only, just like CB7's approval of the project) which called for a spot rezoning of 575 5th Ave (and the lots on either side of it) to a higher density (10,000 sq. feet) which would create yet another out-of-scale 7-8 story building in the South Slope. I did not address any of the current controversy over the project that has arisen "pro and con" in recent weeks in the immediate vicinity of the proposed site. I also gave our endorsement of the project.

    I will say that both sides, either for the project or apposed to it were given their 3 minutes to speak, and quite often the Commissioners asked questions, especially to those apposed to the project, about concerns in regs to community awareness of the project, outreach by FAC, concerns about what type of person would be eligible for both the supportive program (men and women transitioning out of the shelter system with mental handicaps) and the affordable housing program (those in the community who are making less than approx $30K a year).

    There were quite a few new faces/speakers from the community, who live in close proximity to the site, who spoke for in favor of the site and gave very positive and clear reasons why they supported the program. I hope to see them (and everyone, quite frankly) to be active in the community as many of us have through the rezoning and the continued issues with development (for profit) in the area.

    In my personal opinion, I was happy to see some of the speakers who were against the proposed project admit they have support for the "idea" of supportive/affordable housing in CB7. I also was pleased to see the Commissioners on several occasions push those speakers in defining what they would like to see at that location OR what could be done to lessen some of their fears/concerns and allow them to feel comfortable endorsing the plans for 575 5th Ave. The answers ranged from greater outreach by FAC to the immediate community, a clear understanding of the Community Advisory Board (CAB) and more transparency by FAC on what the screening process will be and consideration on some of the BP's and CB7's recommendations. All great dialog and steps towards bridging some of the rift (for some of the opposition) that has occurred with FAC, within the community and in the press surrounding this proposed development.

    I am sure FAC was taking notes and that CPC will be looking for them to address some of the concerns raised at the hearing.

    Then there was the other side of the opposition. In an honest appraisal, Iwas shocked at some of the misinformed, biased, NIMBY and quite frankly fear mongering and bigoted comments about the project, the posed residents and FAC. After sitting through 4 presentations of the project, i have become familiar what this project is and what it is not.

    What I heard from this portion of the opposition ranged from the angry to the bizarre. Comments ranging from "the mentally disabled need to be kept in hospitals, not facilities like this" to" this is not a NIMBY issue, we just feel this facility needs to go some place else" and the final shocker "Park Slope is the most liberal thinking place in Brooklyn, but we don't what THOSE people here."

    OK, everyone is entitled to their opinions, questions, fears and any skepticism. Total freedom of speech. But these "neighbors" of mine to the north around 15th/16th St. scared the hell out of me. I call them "my neighbors" as we regularly shop in the area, have friends on 16th St. and the fact we FOUGHT HARD to preserve the community in that part of South Park Slope.

    My take away, after 5 hours (sorry that we could not stay the whole day) is there is still work needed to be done by FAC in answering questions and setting up a strong community based CAB. I also feel there needs to be a serious look at who is really part of the community on 16th/15th St and whether THEY are going to be good neighbors to this new facility, not the other way around.

    My hope is that all involved (pro or con) can put the past month behind us, work together as a single community (South park Slope & Greenwood Hts, though this effects all of CB7), and place the blame and anger behind us, working with FAC, HPD and our elected officials to make sure the proposed facility at 575 5th Ave is an asset to the diverse community of South park Slope.

    Again, this is my personal and sincere thoughts on what has transpired to date.

    Your dilligent reporter
  • and the final shocker "Park Slope is the most liberal thinking place in Brooklyn, but we don't what THOSE people here."
    *facepalm*
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