teenage girls attacked my daughter on Downing Fulton

Boygabriel wrote: Also your post seems to be hinting at some ulterior motive for the comments about 'black youths'. Personally I commented on black or non-white youths b/c they are who's relevant to this neighborhood. I didn't mention them simply because I think it's a problem confined to that socio-economic group.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I also honestly (and I keep saying "honestly" because I'm not being facetious or sarcastic here) don't understand the way you've interpreted some of the other posts...but I'll worry about my own. Perhaps it's something else at play. I mean, we're discussing Bedford-Stuyvesant....what other kind of youths would anyone be referring to?

Boygabriel wrote: Are the two issues really cut and dry separate? (feeling threatened v. resenting the posessions of others)

Although they can clearly be related in certain circumstances, I'm not sure that I see a necessary or causal connection between the 2. For example, in the example I gave about blacks trying to integrate white neighborhoods, the white community may feel threatened (or their way of life, at least), but I'd imagine that there is no resentment of the blacks' property from an envious/jealous perspective. I think it really all boils down to protecting your cave and the resources in it; if you see something that suggests you might not have that cave or those resources you've stored up, then you want to attack it.

Do you ask because you see the 2 issues, at least the way they're being played out in Bed-Stuy, as 1 and the same...meaning that the anger that young people here feel is actually jealousy towards new arrivals? I think that may be downplaying certain valid feelings that they have (notwithstanding the invalid ways they may choose to express them). It's really not that different from Minutemen "protecting " the Mexican border. Why is it that when its at play in Bed-Stuy it has to do with economics & jealousy whereas elsewhere its just anger, nationalism, etc.?

That may be the case in certain situations, but these kids weren't stuck on some desolate island until gentrifiers showed up. They had MTV, BET...not to mention some of the most gregarious displays of fast money ever. I mean, they didn't need gentrig

BK Allday wrote: Although they can clearly be related in certain circumstances, I'm not sure that I see a necessary or causal connection between the 2. For example, in the example I gave about blacks trying to integrate white neighborhoods, the white community may feel threatened (or their way of life, at least), but I'd imagine that there is no resentment of the blacks' property from an envious/jealous perspective. I think it really all boils down to protecting your cave and the resources in it; if you see something that suggests you might not have that cave or those resources you've stored up, then you want to attack it.

I 100% agree

BK Allday wrote: Do you ask because you see the 2 issues, at least the way they're being played out in Bed-Stuy, as 1 and the same...meaning that the anger that young people here feel is actually jealousy towards new arrivals?

no they're definitely separate issues, I just think they may be intertwined. In fact reading back over this thread, I think the iPod stealing is an effect of the larger issues you're speaking to.

BK Allday wrote: I think that may be downplaying certain valid feelings that they have (notwithstanding the invalid ways they may choose to express them). It's really not that different from Minutemen "protecting " the Mexican border. Why is it that when its at play in Bed-Stuy it has to do with economics & jealousy whereas elsewhere its just anger, nationalism, etc.?

I don't mean to downplay their feelings at all. I'm just at a loss as to how we can move forward together. And what constructive (and realistic) behavior would be from these kids.

I agree with your parallels to the "minutemen" on the Mexican border. In fact I think the "minutemen" are far more harmful and capable of more damage. And I think they have little justification for what they do.

see this thread for an interesating exchange on Bed-Stuy:

http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=361876#361876

Subject: keep it up

Kevin said:
Not trying to justify the robbery attempt of course, and posting the information on the blog is part of my attempt to do something. I was reporting my first reaction, and how I now see that, well of course the boundaries don't matter. It was just admitting that I found it more comforting to think that these were not people who know us. I think if these youngsters had known my daughter or she had known them as part of the neighborhood, this wouldn't have happened. At the same time I was also expressing a wish to know my neighbors better.

Hey Kevin, wake up!!!
More incredible yuppie humor. You folks really crack me up. The youth of this neighborhood have been robbing people they know forever.. Everyone knows everyone when you grow up here. Countless times the kids who get robbed know their attackers. The miscreants around here who go around robbing people very often know their victims, as unfathomable as it may seem to you. Often they come from the same building in their project. The more comments you folks make, the more you put your foot mouth and show your ignorance of our neighborhood. But do tell, please keep your comments/observations/theories coming. They are quite hilarious to us native folk. Please go on...

BeenHereAwhile wrote: see this thread for an interesating exchange on Bed-Stuy:

http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=361876#361876

Before I do, can you ask why you started a new thread instead of responding to the thread to which you took offense in the first place?

beenhereawhile, I don't think you've been here awhile.

No one who currently lives in Bed-Stuy owns anything?

i meant to say shocked not "whocked" although that word does capture feeling shocked and rocked and whacked by housing prices.

Greeneism wrote: Simple fact,
There are a limited number of brownstones. People of means now want them. Bed-Stuy has the largest concentration of these houses on the planet. If people of means (and they can be of many ethnic backgrounds just see the NYT Real Estate section on alternate Sundays) decide that they want brownstones, and they are no longer available in "safer" environs, they will buy them in Bed-Stuy. (Whole houses, cheaper than apartments in Manhattan!) And there is almost nothing that can stop them. The power of the nation state itself is on their sides. Ultimately, these youth and their parents will be sent packing. See Park Slope, Puerto Ricans for an example of how all this is all done.

This is indeed a simple fact. And its naive to think that the youth of Bedford-Stuyvesant and other gentrifying communities don't realize this. It's also naive to think that it will stop at the lowest socio-economic levels being displaced. NYC is the cheapest major city worldwide right now; real estate is selling for thousands a square foot in Tokyo, London, Paris, etc. In a few decades when NYC catches up, today's gentrifiers will be getting displaced by Wall Street bonus wielders and int'l investors and it'll be the same kind of back and forth on similar blogs in the future but with different players.

Greeneism wrote: BK Allday,

Thanks for situating this discussion in international terms.

Only the pretext is international. My drift is that you shouldn't throw stones if you live in a glass house...and there's nothing but glass houses in this great city of ours.

Funny I didn't see many of you at the Precinct Council Meeting.

Kevin--so sorry about your daughter.

Regarding the oft-mentioned Precinct Council meetings--I've lived in Clinton Hill for almost ten years, and have gone to many of these, but have since given up.

After largely seeing the same items on the agenda, with little improvement year after year, it's hard not to believe that these are just a PR stunt for the 88th. And the community affairs officer, whose name escapes me, just isn't very good.

The only time in my recent memory where public outrage resulted in an improved police presence was the blockading of Grand Street last summer in response to the two shootings in the vicinity. This came about largely through the intercession of DA Charles Hynes and Tish James--I highly doubt that the 88th would have done anything on its own.

A good friend of mine is convinced that the fix is in at the 88th--why do so many drug dealers, numbers places and otherwise scary characters persist? I used to vehemently disagree with him, but now I think there may be some truth to this.

tinarina wrote: Kevin--so sorry about your daughter.

Regarding the oft-mentioned Precinct Council meetings--I've lived in Clinton Hill for almost ten years, and have gone to many of these, but have since given up.

After largely seeing the same items on the agenda, with little improvement year after year, it's hard not to believe that these are just a PR stunt for the 88th. And the community affairs officer, whose name escapes me, just isn't very good.

The only time in my recent memory where public outrage resulted in an improved police presence was the blockading of Grand Street last summer in response to the two shootings in the vicinity. This came about largely through the intercession of DA Charles Hynes and Tish James--I highly doubt that the 88th would have done anything on its own.

A good friend of mine is convinced that the fix is in at the 88th--why do so many drug dealers, numbers places and otherwise scary characters persist? I used to vehemently disagree with him, but now I think there may be some truth to this.

And with this Tish James has NOOOO power. The 88th Precinct and DA Charles Hynes put together operation GRAND SLAM. The community affairs officers have changed since last summer to the statement about community affairs just isn't valid. If you are not consistant in fighting crime then you need to shut up. At least the precincts have precinct councils where you can interact with the commanding officer and others in the precinct. You people on this board make me sick.

Anonymous wrote: [quote=Guvna][quote=Anonymous]Funny I didn't see many of you at the Precinct Council Meeting.

Do you know what they look like? :-s

I know the regulars and thats who was at the meeting not you dumb asses that complain on this site. You moved into the hood what 5 years or less and think you can take over. I don't think so.

Why does it matter how long someone has lived in a neighborhood? Is there a certain period of time that you have to live there before your ideas have any validity or "street cred"?

If a new person offers a way to improve a neighborhood why do some people get their backs up about it?

It's like working in an office environment. If the new kid offers a suggestion on ways to save money or increase profits everyone dismisses the idea. However if one of the old guard throws out the exact same suggestion people are much more willing to accept the idea.

I always find that way of thinking ridiculous in an office environment and it's even more ridiculous when it comes to improving a neighborhood.

One doesn't have to accept "simple assualts" and drug dealers as the norm because "that's the way it's always been". The only people who want to accept that as the norm are those who are perpetrating those crimes.