Clean and Articulate

Subject: Re: Clean and Articulate

Aaron Barlow wrote:
Which brings me to my point about this Forum: I find it unsettling. There seems little connection to the people who have lived in Crown Heights for years--and even little connection to the long-time residents of little Lefferts Manor.

Then please let's hear more from them here, to help build that connection. The way you have just done.

Aaron, I happen to be one of the Haitian-Americans you described...and the 2 subway stops you mentioned were my local subway stops during the 14 years I lived in what is now "Lefferts Gardens", so I must've lived close to where you do now. Your post reminds me of a joke amongst Haitians; we jokingly refer to each other as "black jews" or the "jews of the caribbean." The reference stems from the fact that, like 1 of the stereotypes attributed to jews, haitians put great emphasis on education and professional advancement. If you created a little community of Caribbeans, haitians would likely be the bankers, lawyers, etc. This explains in part why haitians were the "missing link" between the middle class and the lower class; because many of them belonged to the middle class but had most of their connections to the lower class.

I agree that 1 of the problems with gentrifiers is that they live around the existing neighborhood and not within it. I have tenants in a gentrifying neighborhood and I talk to them about this; they've explained that part of this behavior is for their own protection...particularly if they are of a different race than the majority of the community. They explain that because they are of a different race, they have a harder time differentiating amongst those of other races...they can't tell who is a pimp or who is a priest...and so to play safe, they mind their own business.

I think this is a fair reason to behave the way that they do; but I explain that it is at the cost of some serious resentment. Unfortunately, I don't see the problem improving. I don't believe that the majority of gentrifiers WANT a relationship with existing residents except to the extent that they need it to cope. I think that they want things to hurry up and change so that they can get comfortable and take their shoes off. And why does that surprise us? They're here for the cheaper rent...that's it! They weren't trying to be friends before getting priced out of NYC, and they aren't now. The community needs to do the same to them; use them for what it needs (i.e., greater police protection; more political power; etc.)...and the hell with the play dates.

The main difference between the middle class of the past in LG that connected with the area's lower clases is that at the end of the day, they and those lower classes were from the same tribe...and unfortunately, that sdeems to make all the difference in the world.

I'm one of the newcomers, I moved here in November of 2006 from Park Slope. I've made an effort to get to know my neighbors and am friendly with the people in the stores I go to. All of my neighbors have been great and so have alot of the people I've met on the street. But I've also come across alot of people who seem to care nothing about CH (mostly younger residents). And I've had 2 incidents with people that have made comments about me being white and living in CH.

The first was shortly after I moved here. An older woman commented loudly to her friend, "There's that white bitch that moved here." The other was last week while I was walking my dogs on Prospect Place between Franklin and Classon around 2 or 3pm. A young guy was sitting in front of the deli drinking a beer, as I approached he threw his half full beer bottle into the street in front of me. He started yelling stuff like "What the fuck are these white people doing in our neighborhood?" There was more but I can't recall all of it. His friend told him, "We don't need people like you in our neighborhood." I didn't react, said nothing, and kept walking.

I won't go so far as to stop interacting completely with the community but I will pick and choose who I'm friendly with. As a teenager I hung out in some shady areas of Brooklyn so I'm at an advantage as far as knowing who to stay away from. Some of the other newcomers may have led more sheltered lives so they feel they should stay away from everyone. Maybe after living here for a few years they'll realize they don't have to do that. But not all of us are like them so I think the old timers shouldn't paint us all with the same brush.

Also, I'm not middle class even though I lived in PS. My 1st apartment there was rent stabilized and a nightmare (which was why it was so cheap). I lived in my 2nd apartment with my ex and the building was owned by a friend of his family so we got somewhat of a deal on the rent. I'm no trust fund baby, I work 2-3 jobs to support myself and I work hard. And I am interested in becoming a part of the CH community.

Subject: Re: beer guy

gues wrote: Stuff like that really pisses me off, it's just ignorance from people that say stuff like that. I wish someone would throw a bottle of beer in front of me!

wait, who are you responding to? I'm totally confused by this post.

Aaron Barlow, nowhere in my post did I say I was going to allow these 2 incidents to "push me away". I'm not a delicate little flower who is going to let something like this run me out of town. And your idea of sitting down to talk to the guy sounds good but in this case wouldn't have worked. The guy was drunk and clearly trying to get a rise out of me. He is not someone I would choose to talk to, I would be much more inclined to want to talk to his friend.

Subject: Check it...

Long rant, sorry.......

Aaron Barlow, if you really are the kind of person who would walk into a bodega and buy two beers, give one too and sit with a guy who just chucked a bottle at you and told you that "we don't need [insert your racial background] in our neighborhood", then you are a saint........

that said, the drunk's actions are intolerable and no one should be expected to put up with that behavior. I believe that there is nothing more owed to a community than being a good neighbor and decent human being..not a saint or activist or teacher...but just maintain your property(whether you own or rent), be polite, be civil, curb your children and pets, don't litter...and voila every neighborhood would be a far better place to live.

And to all of your talk of community and the line earlier that people are just moving in for the cheap rents....well yeah, people live in neighborhoods that they can afford. I'm pretty sure that all of those Haitians moved into your hood because it was cheap. And whatever bonus was to be gained from there being a lot of Haitians there beforehand was just gravy...but first and foremost they lived there because it was cheap. And after establishing themselves in manner that would insure their own families' security and well-being, I'm sure many of thse Haitians went on to lend a helping hand to others of their community.

But let's not forget that in this specific case it was mostly Haitians helping and living with other Haitians. The newcomers moving into Crown Heights today come from all sorts of different social levels and for different reasons, and in many cases are very different from the existing community. Not worse - not better - different. And to be fair, it's "your community" as long as you live there and interact civilly with other who live there, no matter when they showed up. If you're wondering why they're not talking to you, maybe don't throw bottles at them. Or stop assuming that their every waking thought seems to be wishing for all these black people to die or move out so that they can bring in a Starbucks. That's rude and not very community-minded.

Finally, all these posts exhorting that it is my personal responsibility to embrace, educate, feed, mentor every knucklehead and reprobate in my zipcode infuriate me to no end. We're all adults and are well aware of the rules and bounds of civilized society here in 2007 Brooklyn. If you 're not an adult then its the responsibilty of your parents/guardians to teach you (or teach yourself, if you're over 14 and have any sense in your head). If you can't or won't learn, then you're likely in for a rough ride, and best hope that the Aaron Barlow's of the world have tons of spare time to help you get your act together. Because I, and probably many others in our neighborhood, have our own problems, families and concerns to look after.

Being kind is one thing, putting yourself in a potentially volatile situation with a drunk person is another. Personally, I have no tolerance for drunks. It's one reason I purposely stay away from bars and clubs. A person who is drunk at 2 in the afternoon and throws a beer bottle directly in front of me into the street is someone I have no interest in knowing. It doesn't matter what race they are or what neighborhood they are in. Like I said previously, I would be much more inclined to speak to the drunk guy's friend.

Just because I choose not to interact with one ignorant drunk doesn't mean I think I have no responsibility to anyone but myself.

I moved here in july and even though i became actively "involved" from the get go, i am just arriving at a place where i can really appreciate the original post.

whether or not newcomers have a responsibility to become part of the community depends on whether or not they wish to be perceived as part of the problem or part of the solution.

the "problem" in caseopele's post is the issue of gentrification, which we all know exists.
i personally believe that if i move somewhere
i do have a responsibility to the community that is currently in place.
a lot of people cite "diversity" as a positive aspect of living in ch,
but i think few have stopped to consider what a delicate balance that is and how much actual "work" it takes to maintain that successfully.
i do truly hope that the "diversity" we are experiencing now is NOT a passing phase; not just part of the gentrification process
but instead, that it is something that can be sustained,
from experience however, i can tell you this will not be the case without some serious collective work.

greeting your neighbors is neighborly & pleasant but not much else.
as an outsider i think that to become part of the community you have to prove yourself and it might not happen in exactly the way you initially expect.
it took my mother a good 7 years to crack the surface of the small town in columbia county that she moved to from nyc
and it took serving up a lot of lasagna dinners as part of the women's auxiliary.
believe you me, it was a far cry from her former life, but she did it because she wanted to be part of where she had moved to.
becoming "a part of" is a process that requires time & energy and a lot of "2 steps forward 1 step back" but it is also rewarding.
i have no clue as to how i am perceived in the community at this point in time.
i have experienced everything great appreciation to outright resentment,
it doesn't really matter, what matters is that i am making a positive contribution which gives me the strength to overcome the negativity that i sometimes encounter. this makes me happy to live here.

a lot of what surface interpersonal relationships (interactions that occur on the street for example) boil down to is perception.
if i am dissed but i feel like i belong, it rolls off my back,
on the other hand, if i feel insecure because i feel not truly a part of something, i might become defensive
(and one thing i realized pretty early on was that me in ch feeling defensive was not going to work).

everyone has to make these choices for themselves, but our collective future will be formed as a result of these individual decisions.
to pretend there isn't going to be an issue when people from a different socio/economic/racial background move into an area is silly,
to not feel a responsibility towards one's effect on a community as an outsider is a personal decision,
but it should be a conscious one.
it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at the streets of ch in the summer and figure out what the issues facing the community are
and there are only 3 possible outcomes:
1. the community starts drifting backwards due to lack of caring
2. it stays relatively the same until it is crushed by development
3. it grows and morphs with some degree of consciousness and humanity
personally, if it's #1 or #2, i am eventually out of here,
since that leaves #3, my choice concerning involvement is pretty clearly defined.

i have had times in my life when i have done community work and times when i haven't,
but i have always recognized it as being a matter of my own personal priorities and taken responsibility for that.
when i stopped being actively engaged with my community the last time, i realized it was the beginning of the end for me there
and when i was eventually pushed out of a neighborhood that i had helped to build but had stopped working to maintain,
i was angry but i understood why it had happened
and this is true whether you are black or white, new or old,
it's not only the newcomers that play a role in the life or death of a community
life doesn't stand still and the economic growth of the city certainly doesn't either,
unfortunately, being a long term resident somewhere does not give you a ticket to sit back and relax.
maintaining one's community requires an effort on the part of all its members or it will be at the mercy of outside forces, it's that simple.

just as i say here:
the virtual discussion is one thing but it's the actual involvement in the physical world that is going to make a difference
i say to the guy with the beer bottle:
don't be too busy focusing on me in front of you as the enemy
or you'll surely get whacked by that bulldozer coming up behind you

sidebar:
as far as engaging with someone who has just thrown their beer bottle into the street,
that person needs a little lesson in community consciousness
(i am assuming he didn't clean up after himself)
as well as some anger management skills
until he gets the latter i am not sure i would take on the former
and i'm also not convinced that he needs another beer.

here are 6 ideas:

77th precinct community council meetings
see this post: http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=361939&highlight=#361939
2nd monday of the month/location changes
next meeting:
5/14, 7:30pm
Marcus Garvey Nursing Home/810 Saint Marks Ave/between NY & Brooklyn)

Community Board 8 meetings
2nd thursday of the month (i missed last night's)
http://www.brooklyncb8.org/calendar.htm#meetingmonthly
for info

Crown Heights Coalition
a community coalition started by Assemblyman Camara
pm me or i will post the next meeting and see below

Crow Hill Community Association
see http://www.crowhillcommunity.org/ for boundaries
CHCA meets on the third Tuesday of each month at 7:30pm,
next meeting 4/17
Haitian-American Daycare Center
1491 Bedford Ave
(at Bedford & St. John's)


2 upcoming projects:

Youth & Family Resource Fair
the first event sponsored by the Crown Heights Coalition
Sat may 19th: 10-2 light lunch will be served
this fair will bring together parents/kids/teachers with 20-40 providers of services geared towards the youth & families of crown heights
services include everything from daycare to summer camp to job opportunities
if you are interested in working on this project
OR
if you know of a resource that should be included
PLEASE pm me
this is part of a much larger project that involves building a database of all resources available to the community

Damon S. Allen Day of Unity
A community gathering for all of Brooklyn focused on bringing
positive solutions to eradicating violence in our community
Saturday June 30th - 10 Am - SUNSET
Brower Park, Brooklyn
An all day event featuring Music, Inspiration, Activities, Community Resource tables, Refreshments
We will end with a ceremony honoring the victims of violence in our community
If anyone is interested in working on this project please pm me

and for those who don't know who damon allen is:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dsny/html/pr2006/090906.shtml
http://onlytheblogknowsbrooklyn.typepad.com/only_the_blog_knows_brook/2006/09/sanitation_work.html#comments

This is so absurd--you are trying to blame people for not being neighborly enough while admitting they are in a hostile environment. Boogie Knight was spot on.

If someone doesn't join some community group they're not participating in the community.

If they do then they're a gentrifier and trying to change things to suit thier yuppie ways. No good either.

Come on already...

erikka wrote: This is so absurd--you are trying to blame people for not being neighborly enough while admitting they are in a hostile environment. Boogie Knight was spot on.

if you are replying to me i distinctly said that being neighborly is one thing
but becoming part of a community is a long process that is based on a track record (be it good or bad)
and "blame" never entered into it, imho that's a defensive response

"hostile environment" is a matter of perception, even my husband and i will perceive the same event in different ways,
honestly i don't find ch hostile (certainly not compared to other places we looked)
but i do recognize what the issues are here.

erikka wrote: If someone doesn't join some community group they're not participating in the community.

community groups are only one way of becoming part of the community,
another particularly good way in ch would be to join a church.
i think i was just pointing out that participating means,
well,
participating
(as in actions speak louder than words)
saying hello is kind of low on that scale
(it is however both neighborly and polite)

erikka wrote: If they do then they're a gentrifier and trying to change things to suit thier yuppie ways. No good either.

i was also trying to make the point that participating DOESN'T mean gentrifying,
i am not saying to paricipate by only fighting for your personal agenda,
i am saying to participate by finding out what the long standing needs of the community are and then bringing your skills to the table to try to effect those changes.
one example would be to work towards a type of development that doesn't destroy the community,
like working to hold developers who are given tax breaks based on providing affordable housing responsible, for providing housing that is ACTUALLY affordable

BoogieKnight wrote: But, maybe I'm just whiny and cynical, but really...does every single newcomer to the neighborhood have to attend every community meeting? Every activity fair, or church sale, or what have you?

of course not, but just don't expect to become part of an existing community if you don't engage in it,
and there is no reason to become part of the community if that doesn't hold value for you,
and there is no reason not to create your own community within an existing community
and it's perfectly fine to live as an outsider (under most circumstances this is actually my personal choice)
but just know those are decisions that you are making and those decisions have an effect on how people will relate to you.
(for example, i am usually perceived as being distant and a loner, but i recognized that coupled with being white and a newcomer that wasn't going to play well here, so i adjusted my m.o. to suit the situation, being comfortable where i live & work is a HUGE priority for me so there is a TREMENDOUS personal payback for the effort i am making)

BoogieKnight wrote: Am I to believe that every single old-timer and their kids and grandkids attend each and everyone of these meetings? That the entirety of their spare time is spent in community outreach and mentoring? Really?

i see you didn't read the last part of my post too carefully, i put the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of oldtimers and newcomers alike
there is a tremendous amount of apathy in the community and unfortuanately that is why gentrification will probably bulldoze ch as opposed to proceding in a slightly controlled fashion

as i intimated i have been on both sides of the coin,
lived in a neighborhood that i got basically pushed out of after 25 years
came into a neighborhood where i am, to a greater or lesser degree, "the gentrifier"
and as i acknowledged, i know this neighborhood is undergoing many changes,
i am simply suggesting that one can participate in how those changes happen
or not participate

i was really responding to the original post by saying
(in a nutshell, if such a thing is possible for me)
that it has taken me a while to even begin to understand where i am living and how to become a part of the community
and that understanding has grown out of cumulative experiences
and the answers lie less in the issues that divide (race/money/etc) and more on there being a mutual willingness to co-exist and co-operate
and the easiest way to do this is to establish common goals and work on them
it's really not that complicated

I would like to start off saying that this is one of the best posts I've seen anywhere in a while, and has left me with no choice but to register and respond.


Here's the deal, Crown Heights became what it was because of the racism that existed during the time of it's transition. Now, it is 50 years later, and the same "people" that left CH for dead are slowly but surely creeping back.

Let's be real here, some members of the African-American community have "tolerance" issues with whites. Understandable? Of course, I would too. But let's not try to paint it as "Acceptable" either. Whatever our reason for being here, we're all in the same boat, so we might as well make it work.

As for the idea that persists across Central Brooklyn (note the Bed-Stuy boards as well) that it is a "black" communtiy, and belongs to the "black" communtiy, and should stay as a "black" community, I say this. As a white dude, if I said "Only Blacks live in CH" would you not be offended? If someone tried to paint Bensonhurst as belonging to the "white" community, would you not be offended? Sure, I read the history. The racism the black community faced is deplorable, and wanting to feel as though something belongs to you in a white society is understandable, but isn't the first thing we learned as children "do unto others as you would like others to do unto you?"

We all will rise and fall together. All of our mail says "Brooklyn" on it. Why can't anyone here see that?