Clean and Articulate

It is just crazy that people have reacted so negatively to Mr. Barlow. Comments like "greeting your neighbors is neighborly & pleasant but not much else" make me see red. I mean that is just some ignorant ass shit! If you do not have the common courtesy to say hello to people you walk by 20 times a week, or at least smile in their direction or do ANYTHING to recognize their existence, you look like a fool, you are acting like a fool and... when the drunk in front of the deli throws a beer at you, you better not be surprised because you are the seemingly hauty ass fucker who tromps through the hood everday saying nothing to nobody. Beyond that, and in addition to the point Mr. Barlow tried to make politely in a follow-up post... what makes you so friggin' special?! Not a damn thing.

I remember one of the first posts I read on this board about 2 years ago was some guy complaining that the people on his stoop were slow to move out of the way when he had a big bag of laundry to carry up to his apartment. Does anyone seriously think this would have been the case had he ever said 'hello' to the folks on the stoop and had actually developed the most minimal level of mutual understanding with his neighbors beforehand?

Or, possibly I am totally ignorant of human relations and can be freely ignored.

Chris, did you even read my posts? You shouldn't be so quick to call someone you don't even know a fool. I do say hello to my neighbors and the people I see on a regular basis. Am I special because I dared to walk my dogs past this drunk? I've never seen that guy before so me saying hello or not has nothing to do with that situation. Haughty ass fucker? I have every right to live here and walk around the neighborhood without some drunk throwing a bottle at me. I will choose who I speak to and who I don't because that's a smart thing to do in any neighborhood. I'm a nice person and I treat others with the same respect as I wish to be treated.

at the risk of appearing defensive i feel i have to respond the same way as caseopele and suggest you read what people say a bit more carefully before lashing out

Chris wrote: It is just crazy that people have reacted so negatively to Mr. Barlow.

my post was in direct appreciation of mr. barlow's. what he wrote touched me, because i am just beginning to understand the complexities of the fabric of this community and i think he made valuable observations about ch and what we stand to lose if we do not look backwards and all around us as we proceed with our lives here

Chris wrote: Comments like "greeting your neighbors is neighborly & pleasant but not much else" make me see red. I mean that is just some ignorant ass shit! If you do not have the common courtesy to say hello to people you walk by 20 times a week, or at least smile in their direction or do ANYTHING to recognize their existence, you look like a fool, you are acting like a fool and...

again, i was very clear that i think it's great to say hello, i do it even though i am quite shy and it takes a bit of an effort for me (and i grew up in nyc where that wan't part of the culture).
the point i was trying to make however was that becoming part of the community is a process that takes time, you might start by saying hello but that only goes so far, it usually takes a bit more than a casual greeting for people to come to feel that you understand and care about their welfare as well as your own.
"outsiders" are often perceived as having a different agenda and as threatening to the status quo, i was just suggesting that if you want to be seen differently, it might require a bit more effort than a daily greeting.

ok,
i think i've totally pummeled that poor dead horse

Ilikesausage wrote:
News flash, people in most industrialized western societies aren't that friendly. Do you seriously think everyone in Nassau County says hi? I don't think so.

What makes me angry is people playing people like they fools. You want me to be "nice" to you, meanwhile you're facial expression all but verbally says "f-off cracker". I don't think so. You'd be suprised how nice and intersted us light-skinned folk are when people chill with the Malcom X "burn the white man" bullshit.

Do you say hi to your Jamaican neighbors? How about the Chinese delivery guy? Or maybe the Puerto Rican bodega clerk? *gasp*, the JEWS!?!?


Of course we're the ones who don't respect the community, even though the graffiti, trash and gun crime was all here before we were. We don't respect the history, even though the murals depecting it have gang tags on them and many historic brownstones layed burned out before people started renovating.


Why not be real here and say what you really think. You hate us and want us to go away.

I don't hate you, or any of the white people in this neighborhood. And implying that all of the people in this neighborhood have the attitude of "f-off cracker" is insulting, period.

Fact of the matter is that most people here do speak to one another. They talk to their Jamaican neighbors, and the Puerto Rican (and Middle Eastern) bodega owners and the folks at the Chinese restaurant, and yes, some of us even talk to the Hasidim (gasp!) even though they don't always talk back. If you think I'm lying why not ask some of these folks yourself. They'll tell you the truth about this neighborhood, that its no different than anywhere else. There are some really cool people and some idiots. Some kids that are polite and some that are knuckleheads. Some elderly people that will say hello and wave at you every time they see you and some that will mutter under their breath at you. There are families that you see together all the time and some folks that seem to come and go by themselves all the time.

I've lived in NYC, down south and upstate NY as an adult and I can truly say that Brooklyn is the only place where I have had neighbors that say hello. I've invited neighbors over to my house and gone to theirs. I don't make apologies for all of my neighbors. Some of them have problems and are so mired in negative behavior that they might never have a "normal" life. But this neighborhood is also made up of a lot of hardworking folks who don't appreciate being "discovered". We've been here for years and we have institutions and traditions that make this community home for us. Recognize that and respect it. That's all we ask.

BoogieKnight wrote: "But this neighborhood is also made up of a lot of hardworking folks who don't appreciate being "discovered". We've been here for years and we have institutions and traditions that make this community home for us. Recognize that and respect it. That's all we ask."

Homeowner, would you please be so kind as to list a few of these "instituitions and traditions..." for all of us who are following this thread.

And would you also, if you have the time, please illustrate how, if it's happening, that newcomers are either ignoring or actively disrespecting these institutions and traditions?

I ask, because sometimes I think we may be talking across each other, and some concrete points/examples may be useful to keep the conversation on point. Obviously, yours and everyone elses opinion and/or personal anectdotes are fair and valid...after all, that's all most of us are working with in the first place.

I feel white folks will never understand black people, period, so I feel its useless to try. In my eyes, the institutions and traditions would include everything you gentrifiers hate:

Crown Fried Chicken Joints
We Love chicken, its cheap, easy and affordable to most people in the hood who don't have money to eat at a thai or sushi resturant, that you beg for in these parts

Nail Salons and Hair Salons:
Time and time again I have read on these boards "why are there so many nair and hair salons" or "oh look another hair salon"
These places are important to our people, we love to look good and get our hair done for $10 or $15 dollars by the dominicans vs. that high end salon you flock to park slope too.

What about the 99 cent stores that cater to the neighborhood, that help people get by day to day? You hate those too right? Why should I have to pay more for aluminum foil...

We have plenty of churches, you know we are religious, so what if they are on everyblock, its apart of our culture. If you could have it your way, youd demo them for condos!

Yes we like our music loud, we party all night long and blast music out of cars, big deal. We have block parties in the summertime, we hang out in the streets all night, this IS BROOKLYN, it always has been this way since the beginning of time and always will be.

There is weed smoking in the street, drunks in front of the stores, SO WHAT???

I can go on an on about what people complain about on these boards, these are just a sample. Even if they may be trivial, they still represent a way of life in black neighborhoods. We take the good, the bad and the ugly and we deal with it. And thats just REAL TALK.

When gentrifiers who dont respect these ways of life no matter how good or how bad and try to change these things, they create hostility and resentment against them. The stores dissapear, the churches close (due to parishoners forced out of the neighborhood) families are split up, way of life changes..... no matter how much you ignore that, its still there.

I don't want people to reply to this post saying how I'm wrong, and I am a bigot or a racist, because I'm not. It's my opinion on how I feel about "new" people in the 'hood. You all need to hear this type of view. I respect you, and at the same time, I don't want you in my neighborhood--- yes.... MY NEIGHBORHOOD, which I have lived in all my life, good times and bad, BEFORE you got here looking for cheap rent or property. Because you didn't move here for anyother reason.

@ GentrifyThis -

For some reason, I don't think that too many black people are going to be bursting with pride when they read your summary of black culture.

GentrifyThis wrote: I don't want people to reply to this post saying how I'm wrong, and I am a bigot or a racist, because I'm not. It's my opinion on how I feel about "new" people in the 'hood. You all need to hear this type of view. I respect you, and at the same time, I don't want you in my neighborhood--- yes.... MY NEIGHBORHOOD, which I have lived in all my life, good times and bad, BEFORE you got here looking for cheap rent or property. Because you didn't move here for anyother reason.

Question for you, GT: What about me?

I'm a "new people" to the neighborhood, but I'm black. I love Thai food and Sushi, but I love block parties. I love chicken but I need inexpensive rent. I'm a perfect combination of the neighborhood you speak of and the change that you hate.

And on a seperate note: Why are you content to just "deal with" "the good, the bad and the ugly"? Even if white people didn't give YOUR neighborhood a second look, I can't fathom why you wouldn't want to see the neighborhood shine and get rid of the bad and the ugly. Help me understand your logic, buddy.

I like fried chicken. I just can't go into Crown's because it smells WAAAAAAY too greasy for me.

Here's the ugly part that I don't love and I can't imagine anyone else loves, all the trash on the ground. What's up with that? People who litter are miscreants - period.

Crown Fried Chicken rules! I loved it when I lived in Harlem and I love it here. do I get a free pass?

GentrifyThis wrote:
Crown Fried Chicken Joints
We Love chicken, its cheap, easy and affordable to most people in the hood who don't have money to eat at a thai or sushi resturant, that you beg for in these parts

Nail Salons and Hair Salons:
Time and time again I have read on these boards "why are there so many nair and hair salons" or "oh look another hair salon"
These places are important to our people, we love to look good and get our hair done for $10 or $15 dollars by the dominicans vs. that high end salon you flock to park slope too.

What about the 99 cent stores that cater to the neighborhood, that help people get by day to day? You hate those too right? Why should I have to pay more for aluminum foil...

We have plenty of churches, you know we are religious, so what if they are on everyblock, its apart of our culture. If you could have it your way, youd demo them for condos!

Yes we like our music loud, we party all night long and blast music out of cars, big deal. We have block parties in the summertime, we hang out in the streets all night, this IS BROOKLYN, it always has been this way since the beginning of time and always will be.

There is weed smoking in the street, drunks in front of the stores, SO WHAT???

sheeeeeeet!!! this is ghetto culture, not Black culture!!!! I'm a Black male and have been livin' in Bed Stuy for umpteenth...and I hate this type of shit!!!...unless it's in someone ELSE'S neighborhood of course

I feel white folks will never understand black people, period, so I feel its useless to try. In my eyes, the institutions and traditions would include everything you gentrifiers hate:

Crown Fried Chicken Joints
We Love chicken, its cheap, easy and affordable to most people in the hood who don't have money to eat at a thai or sushi resturant, that you beg for in these parts

Nail Salons and Hair Salons:
Time and time again I have read on these boards "why are there so many nair and hair salons" or "oh look another hair salon"
These places are important to our people, we love to look good and get our hair done for $10 or $15 dollars by the dominicans vs. that high end salon you flock to park slope too.

What about the 99 cent stores that cater to the neighborhood, that help people get by day to day? You hate those too right? Why should I have to pay more for aluminum foil...

We have plenty of churches, you know we are religious, so what if they are on everyblock, its apart of our culture. If you could have it your way, youd demo them for condos!

Yes we like our music loud, we party all night long and blast music out of cars, big deal. We have block parties in the summertime, we hang out in the streets all night, this IS BROOKLYN, it always has been this way since the beginning of time and always will be.

There is weed smoking in the street, drunks in front of the stores, SO WHAT???

I can go on an on about what people complain about on these boards, these are just a sample. Even if they may be trivial, they still represent a way of life in black neighborhoods. We take the good, the bad and the ugly and we deal with it. And thats just REAL TALK.

When gentrifiers who dont respect these ways of life no matter how good or how bad and try to change these things, they create hostility and resentment against them. The stores dissapear, the churches close (due to parishoners forced out of the neighborhood) families are split up, way of life changes..... no matter how much you ignore that, its still there.

I don't want people to reply to this post saying how I'm wrong, and I am a bigot or a racist, because I'm not. It's my opinion on how I feel about "new" people in the 'hood. You all need to hear this type of view. I respect you, and at the same time, I don't want you in my neighborhood--- yes.... MY NEIGHBORHOOD, which I have lived in all my life, good times and bad, BEFORE you got here looking for cheap rent or property. Because you didn't move here for anyother reason.

Nobody understands anybody, not really. But it's immature to think you're different--we have more in common than we have differences.

Those are the best "institutions and traditions" you can come up with? This is where you take pride? Those things aren't even unique to black culture or Crown Heights.

I agree churches can be pretty good community-building institutions. They can also deplete the wealth of community members, perpetuate an us-vs.-them mentality, and brainwash people into not questioning authority, but then, I'm an atheist. Having a gathering place, a place where like-minded folk can go, is great. Not to be facetious, but I'm sure you realize that religion is a big part of most cultures ... .

I don't think people mind nail and hair salons--it's just that there are stretches of the neighborhood where they are literally every other store! Even that wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't to the exclusion of other kinds of stores. And again, it shouldn't surprise you that most people in most cultures care about their appearance and want to look good. The same with 99-cent stores. I love them! But you only need one or two every few blocks, you know?

As for fried chicken, well, as evidenced by the responses here, many people of all ethnicities like fried chicken. I hope you don't think such an ubiquitous dish is unique to Crown Heights either.

I thought of a few things you left out, and I'd hope you would appreciate them (as I do).

Hairstyles. You say you like lots of hair salons because they're cheap and people like to look good. Again, everyone likes to look good. But there are some black hairstyles that are gorgeous and unique. The creativity and skill put into some of the styles I've seen are amazing!

Music. Blues, jazz, soul, reggae, gospel, and R&B. I'm not a big fan of rap or hip-hop, but a lot of people (of many races, though) are. These are great (and varied) musical forms that at least started out as being unique to or were greatly influenced by black culture (although not just one black culture, in most cases).

Soul food. Maybe this is what you meant by "Crown Fried Chicken," but to me it's a different thing. Not to take anything away from fried chicken, but what about macaroni and cheese? Greens--collard, kale, chard ... yum! And what about West Indian food? Roti? Beans and rice? More greens!

Cricket games. This is certainly not unique to black culture, but I haven't seen a casual game played anywhere except in Crown Heights.

I don't mind people smoking weed on the street (I think it should be legalized, anyhow), and I don't care if people enjoy a beer on the street (until they get drunk and start throwing bottles at people), but these are neither unique to black culture nor anything to be particularly proud of.

White people like loud music too, and I don't think the disrespect for your neighbors and narcissism and self-involvement displayed when you blast it in a residential area late at night is a black or white issue, but more like an age issue. Teenagers think everything they do is special and nobody has ever enjoyed music so much and nobody has ever had so much fun. They will grow out of it. In the meantime, we grown-ups with greater responsibilities and a lot more experience have every right to complain.

Some people in Crown Heights are obnoxious or rude, but of those who are friendly, I find them to be more friendly and open than the friendly people of Park Slope (some of whom, too, are obnoxious or rude). I love the liveliness of Nostrand Avenue (for example). I like the block parties (as long as the party goers respect their neighbors and tone it down as the day ends). This is really a great neighborhood.

The things you list are not a way of life. They're anecdotes, little slices of life. It certainly has not "been this way since the beginning of time," and it will not stay the same ever. You wrote, "We take the good, the bad and the ugly and we deal with it." But you imply that by "deal with it" you mean just let it be. You don't have to agree with the status quo, you can work to change it. If you don't want to improve upon the bad and the ugly, that's your choice. But why fault people who do? And why assume we don't appreciate the good? --E.

It's amazing (or maybe it isn't) that of all the points raised on this thread, the one that's being responded to the most is the one regarding fried chicken & nail salons. Blacks need to start picking their own leaders and mouthpieces.

Back to the institutions and traditions of the neighborhood, does anybody know anything about the jazz musicians who played free concerts in the "space shuttle park" every Thursday evening last summer?

They were really good. They seemed like a bunch of very talented neighborhood guys who were musicians from the 60's era of jazz music.

What's their story? Will they be back this summer? Hope so.

What is "space shuttle park?"

Troof Hertz wrote: ...one carnivore even suggested that what he was experiencing here was race-based "hate."

For the record, this was not me. :roll: