Fear of Pitbull
Comments
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It makes sense that it would be disproportionate, though, because drug dealers, thugs, and people who breed dogs for fighting tend to own pit bulls and rottweilers rather than cocker spaniels and poodles. I think we can all agree that dogs who are trained to fight and attack people or who are raised by abusive owners are likely to be dangerous.
But the original question was whether pit bulls are inherently dangerous, whether a pit bull raised from puppyhood with love and kindness is someday going to "snap" and kill the baby because pit bulls are just like that. -
thanks for that article, precious. it was very informative.
in regards to how Beck determined population numbers, as the article states his mathematics are flawed. he based his computation on "estimated pit bulls numbers using UKC registrations, and then added to it based on several sources." but that's just it: he used REGISTRATIONS for his base number. unfortunately, i don't think there is any way to account for non-registered animals, and since the article doesn't shed any light on his "other sources", i don't feel a strong hypothesis can be made. i know my dog isn't registered, and i'm going to guess that most pit owners don't register their animals with the UKC. so i think in this instance, it's just a guess.
and yet, i will still reserve judgement, and i still think meanderthal's point merits some research. i'll see what i can dig up, and i'd be very appreciative if anyone out there would be willing to share data with me. -
Precious Williams wrote: I have not heard of a single Poodle, Chi or Yorkshire terrier ever killing a human though.
HaHa. you are probably right!
but i'm not debating the fact that OTHER breeds are more dangerous or lethal. i'm just debating the veracity of pits' dangerous proclivities. -
i'm reading the JAVMA article you posted for me, precious...
FYI: on page 839, it states: " Indeed, since 1975, dogs belonging to more than 30 breeds have been responsible for fatal attacks on people,
including Dachshunds, a Yorkshire Terrier, and a Labrador Retriever"
(i bolded those breeds for emphasis)
whodathunkit, eh? i'd laugh, except for the fact that they ARE talking about fatalities... -
shishkab wrote: i'm reading the JAVMA article you posted for me, precious...
Dayum! I never would have thought a Yorkie could kill a person!! WTF?!
FYI: on page 839, it states: " Indeed, since 1975, dogs belonging to more than 30 breeds have been responsible for fatal attacks on people,
including Dachshunds, a Yorkshire Terrier, and a Labrador Retriever"
(i bolded those breeds for emphasis)
whodathunkit, eh? i'd laugh, except for the fact that they ARE talking about fatalities... -
Black people are 12.8% of the US population, but blacks constituted 49.2 percent of the prison population.
The point is, there are bigger factors involved - it's not as simple as race or breed, as Rose was kind enough to point out - the wrong types are attracted to pitbull-types and other 'tough' dogs. Very rarely does a dog pick out his/her owner. You want further evidence? Find out how many pitbull-types are adopted or euthanized. I'll bet that that's way out of whack, too, because these same bad owners are abandoning them. Almost every responsible pitbull owner that I know has adopted or otherwise rescued their dog.Precious Williams wrote: My post was to illustrate the fact that while the smaller dogs are in no way perfect and do act out - they cannot do all that much damage.
I understand that - it was one of the points that I made. I simply pointed out what I did to emphasize that you really don't know dogs, and are not a source of a qualified opinion. Nothing against you, but you don't, and most people are in the same boat. Dogs don't talk, but they are ALWAYS communicating - you haven't learned what your dog is telling you, so how can you tell me (or any or dog owner) about the mental or emotional state of my dog? Quite honestly, if we just passed on the street, I wouldn't bother to correct you or anyone else on their lack of knowledge, but on this forum it would be a disservice to let you spread misinformation and uninformed opinion to others that may see you as being credible. -
WhyFi wrote: Black people are 12.8% of the US population, but blacks constituted 49.2 percent of the prison population.
I understand that - it was one of the points that I made. I simply pointed out what I did to emphasize that you really don't know dogs, and are not a source of a qualified opinion. Nothing against you, but you don't, and most people are in the same boat. Dogs don't talk, but they are ALWAYS communicating - you haven't learned what your dog is telling you, so how can you tell me (or any or dog owner) about the mental or emotional state of my dog? Quite honestly, if we just passed on the street, I wouldn't bother to correct you or anyone else on their lack of knowledge, but on this forum it would be a disservice to let you spread misinformation and uninformed opinion to others that may see you as being credible.
The point is, there are bigger factors involved - it's not as simple as race or breed, as Rose was kind enough to point out - the wrong types are attracted to pitbull-types and other 'tough' dogs. Very rarely does a dog pick out his/her owner. You want further evidence? Find out how many pitbull-types are adopted or euthanized. I'll bet that that's way out of whack, too, because these same bad owners are abandoning them. Almost every responsible pitbull owner that I know has adopted or otherwise rescued their dog.
[quote=Precious Williams]My post was to illustrate the fact that while the smaller dogs are in no way perfect and do act out - they cannot do all that much damage.
I can't believe you are comparing black Americans to pitbulls. :shock: But anyway, my point is that I believe that certain breeds of dogs are capable of turning nasty and potentially killing, even if they've had great owners, have been properly trained and never abused.
So, you are suggesting that black Americans have a natural tendency to turn to crime even if they've grown up comfortably and had every advantage? Interesting. -
Precious Williams wrote: I have not heard of a single Poodle, Chi or Yorkshire terrier ever killing a human though.
Opinion on dog breeds and breed popularity regularly changes. Poodles were once seen as being very tough dogs (and they are - I wouldn't want to tangle with one, they also happen to be very smart... usually.) - in John Steinbeck's Travels With Charley, Charley was a stalwart standard poodle. -
WhyFi wrote: Black people are 12.8% of the US population, but blacks constituted 49.2 percent of the prison population.
I understand that - it was one of the points that I made. I simply pointed out what I did to emphasize that you really don't know dogs, and are not a source of a qualified opinion. Nothing against you, but you don't, and most people are in the same boat. Dogs don't talk, but they are ALWAYS communicating - you haven't learned what your dog is telling you, so how can you tell me (or any or dog owner) about the mental or emotional state of my dog? Quite honestly, if we just passed on the street, I wouldn't bother to correct you or anyone else on their lack of knowledge, but on this forum it would be a disservice to let you spread misinformation and uninformed opinion to others that may see you as being credible.
The point is, there are bigger factors involved - it's not as simple as race or breed, as Rose was kind enough to point out - the wrong types are attracted to pitbull-types and other 'tough' dogs. Very rarely does a dog pick out his/her owner. You want further evidence? Find out how many pitbull-types are adopted or euthanized. I'll bet that that's way out of whack, too, because these same bad owners are abandoning them. Almost every responsible pitbull owner that I know has adopted or otherwise rescued their dog.
[quote=Precious Williams]My post was to illustrate the fact that while the smaller dogs are in no way perfect and do act out - they cannot do all that much damage.
I just re-read your post. Why are you getting to bent out of shape? I have owned (small) dogs all of my life. Who are you to dictate to me what I do or don't know about my dog. You are extraordinarily arrogant and possibly also racist. If my Min Pin sees you, she'll kick your ass. -
WhyFi wrote: [quote=Precious Williams]I have not heard of a single Poodle, Chi or Yorkshire terrier ever killing a human though.
Opinion on dog breeds and breed popularity regularly changes. Poodles were once seen as being very tough dogs (and they are - I wouldn't want to tangle with one, .
Oh, please.
People like you elaborately defend the more aggressive dogs when, in fact, the statistics speak for themselves. Even allowing for the fact that SOME pits and rottis are owned by drug dealers and thugs - there are STILL a disproportionate number of pits and rottis (and not poodles, not Min Pins, not Yorkies) KILLING humans. Nothing you post here can change those statistics. Sure, I do not have experience of pits or rottis. Possibly its only a percentage of such breeds that turn on humans. But still it is clearly a problem. -
Precious Williams wrote: But anyway, my point is that I believe that certain breeds of dogs are capable of turning nasty and potentially killing, even if they've had great owners, have been properly trained and never abused.
You. Don't. Know. Dogs. You don't know how to properly train your dog, so who are you to say if a dog that 'snapped' was properly trained or not? This is my point. Give me 20 minutes with your dog and I'll bet you that, under my supervision, it wouldn't exhibit any of the negative behavior that you've described when it's under your supervision.Precious Williams wrote: So, you are suggesting that black Americans have a natural tendency to turn to crime even if they've grown up comfortably and had every advantage? Interesting.
Do you read? Read again - I'm saying absolutely the opposite - that numbers don't tell the whole story, that it's not that simple. Read this article on racial profiling and pitbulls. -
WhyFi wrote: [quote=Precious Williams]But anyway, my point is that I believe that certain breeds of dogs are capable of turning nasty and potentially killing, even if they've had great owners, have been properly trained and never abused.
You. Don't. Know. Dogs. You don't know how to properly train your dog, so who are you to say if a dog that 'snapped' was properly trained or not? This is my point. Give me 20 minutes with your dog and I'll bet you that, under my supervision, it wouldn't exhibit any of the negative behavior that you've described when it's under your supervision. your arrogance is laughable. My pup has been trained by a professional. She has shown very slight aggression only once in her young life. A young child was pulling on her legs and then teasing her with a stick and she growled. She did not touch the kid. Gimme a breakPrecious Williams wrote: So, you are suggesting that black Americans have a natural tendency to turn to crime even if they've grown up comfortably and had every advantage? Interesting.
WhyFi wrote: [
Well I have a degree in English literature from Oxford, so.....
Do you read? Read again -
:roll:
Do me a favor - don't respond to my posts again. I think you are a total asshole. -
Precious Williams wrote: I just re-read your post. Why are you getting to bent out of shape? I have owned (small) dogs all of my life. Who are you to dictate to me what I do or don't know about my dog. You are extraordinarily arrogant and possibly also racist. If my Min Pin sees you, she'll kick your ass.
I'm not bent out of shape - I just don't want you spreading misinformation. And I already know enough about your dog and how you handle it from your previous posts. It's has some aggression and dominance issues that you've nurtured - anytime a dog is in front of you, above you, on you, it's telling you about your rank relative to it, namely that you're a follower, and it's the one in control. When it acts out and you pick it up, you're simultaneously reinforcing the aggressive behavior while raising it's status is your two-person pack. I'm willing to bet that it zips to and fro on walks with you, deciding where it wants to go and what it wants to sniff. Again, a sign that it's in control, not you. When your dog growls at a little boy because it gets near his stick, again - dominance and possessiveness. A well-trained dog should automatically take a submissive role and only growl at a real threat. -
Precious Williams wrote: [quote=WhyFi]Do you read? Read again -
Well I have a degree in English literature from Oxford, so.....
Ask for a refund.Precious Williams wrote: Do me a favor - don't respond to my posts again. I think you are a total asshole.
Go ahead and think that I'm an ass, I know that you don't know anything about dogs. -
Precious Williams wrote: [quote=WhyFi]Do you read? Read again -
Well I have a degree in English literature from Oxford, so.....
And you sell hi-fi's for a living, right?
Is there an Ignore button facility on this board? Hopefully. -
Precious Williams wrote: And you sell hi-fi's for a living, right?
Again, something that you're totally ignorant about. Yes, I do. I got out of banking to join the audio industry because I plan on starting my own business within that industry, just as I helped my wife start her business within her chosen field. You think you know me because I sell hifi gear? Today I took payment from a client for an $18k CD player and I charge $100/hr for consultation/set up. Still think you know me? You know nothing about hifi or dogs. -
alafairnadia wrote: I actually really love rotties and pits. of course, I've only ever met rescued versions of these dogs, so they're always damaged. my mom's rottie, meadow, shreds cats for fun and has major problems with men. my ex's pit bull is terrified of the outdoors and would growl and snap if you tried to take him outside. inside the house, though, he snuggled with the cats and laid his velvety face in my lap.
does your mom's rottie literally shred cats? or he just chases them? it's so sad that people abuse animals and its not like the animals can even express their pain with words. I had two cats from a shelter who were like that. It took them 3 months to be able to sit on the sofa with me. They were terrified of men. Absolutely terrified.
. -
Precious Williams wrote: [quote=WhyFi]Black people are 12.8% of the US population, but blacks constituted 49.2 percent of the prison population.
I understand that - it was one of the points that I made. I simply pointed out what I did to emphasize that you really don't know dogs, and are not a source of a qualified opinion. Nothing against you, but you don't, and most people are in the same boat. Dogs don't talk, but they are ALWAYS communicating - you haven't learned what your dog is telling you, so how can you tell me (or any or dog owner) about the mental or emotional state of my dog? Quite honestly, if we just passed on the street, I wouldn't bother to correct you or anyone else on their lack of knowledge, but on this forum it would be a disservice to let you spread misinformation and uninformed opinion to others that may see you as being credible.
The point is, there are bigger factors involved - it's not as simple as race or breed, as Rose was kind enough to point out - the wrong types are attracted to pitbull-types and other 'tough' dogs. Very rarely does a dog pick out his/her owner. You want further evidence? Find out how many pitbull-types are adopted or euthanized. I'll bet that that's way out of whack, too, because these same bad owners are abandoning them. Almost every responsible pitbull owner that I know has adopted or otherwise rescued their dog.
[quote=Precious Williams]My post was to illustrate the fact that while the smaller dogs are in no way perfect and do act out - they cannot do all that much damage.
I can't believe you are comparing black Americans to pitbulls. :shock: But anyway, my point is that I believe that certain breeds of dogs are capable of turning nasty and potentially killing, even if they've had great owners, have been properly trained and never abused.
So, you are suggesting that black Americans have a natural tendency to turn to crime even if they've grown up comfortably and had every advantage? Interesting.
I've got to jump in here...
I disagree with Whyfi about the inherent aggressiveness of Pit Bulls, but there's absolutely nothing racist about his post. Quite the opposite, in fact. He is using the assumption that there are no inherent differences between races to illustrate the statistical concept of the epiphenomenon. It is a basic statistical and logical truth that correlation does not imply causation. He used the example of black Americans and prisoners because he assumed everyone would recognize that there is not an inherent tendency of blacks to turn to crime, but rather that other factors (differences in educational opportunities, economic differences, unequal enforcement of the law, for example) are responsible for the correlation. This is the opposite of your interpretation of what he said. He wanted to parallel his argument that although more attacks involve pit bulls than other dogs, other factors (such as the tendency of people who shouldn't own dogs at all to own pit bulls) are responsible for the correlation rather than anything inherent about the pit bulls themselves.
An additional statistical point that I feel compelled to add is that although fatal attacks on humans are more likely to involve pit bulls than other dogs, that does not mean that pit bulls are more likely to fatally attack people than other dogs. These are two very different statements, statistically and logically. For example, (to take the argument to its extreme), if there were one super-Cujo killer pit bull that attacked and killed many people throughout the U.S., while no other pit bull ever attacked a human at all, you could still have a disproportionate number of fatalities involving pit bulls while most pit bulls were even less likely to attack people than other dogs.
Anyway, I still think pit bulls are bad news, but Whyfi is being unfairly attacked here. -
shishkab wrote:
I rolled over onto it, it bit me, I did not say the dog was injured, but I sure was. And yes, it was likley because it was old, I said that.
but to play devil's advocate for a moment, isn't it possible that the reason why the dog bit you was not that it snapped, but because it was an old dog who was injured by YOU first?shishkab wrote:
I did not say they made the decision, just that he was put down. I believe it is the law where I am from, that this is done. Not sure on that one though, could just be talk.
i can't and won't make a judgment call on your parents' decision to euthanize the GSD.
Yo, be careuful, the more you assume things in this case, the more you weaken your arguments. This boils down to one thing only, any dog can snap. Obviously there are multiple factors involved, but when a dog bites someone it's lived with for YEARS, something is wrong with the dog. And just to point out, no, the dog had NO problems other than age, no arthritus, no "painful conditions." You're digging for ways to excuse the fact as anything other than what it was. An unfortunate dog attack.
there are many factors we need to take into consideration when it comes to protecting our children. 'nuff said. but please, dave... couldn't it be possible that the dog was old and perhaps arthritic (GSDs as a breed often get terrible, crippling arthritis as they age. they also often have worsening hip dysplasia, another painful condition), and you rolled over onto its bum legs causing it pain and it lashed out? lashing out is different than "snapping".
thanks.
and yes, i care.. i'm glad you have no facial scars. must have been an awful experience for you (and no. there is no sarcasm attached to that statement. just sincerity). -
Oh and I just want to point out that, for the record, I am a huge dog fan (and a fan of huge dogs, too). I'm not sure if there is anything inherently or genetically "wrong" with any breads. The stats on pits is a little scary though, and if I had time today, maybe I'd weight the numbers to account for the larger population of dogs, but I fear that would make the pits look even worse.
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kosherdave wrote: I'm not sure if there is anything inherently or genetically "wrong" with any breads.
And this is all that I'm saying. I defend the breed because they've come to be coveted by thugs and criminals who mistreat and otherwise abuse them. These mistreated, unstable dogs then lash out, and somehow it's a matter of the breed being psycho?! No, it's the owners that deserve our disdain, not the animals.
Oh, and to further support my claim that public opinion has regularly swayed on dog breeds, have a gander at this, the ultimate family dog - recognize him?
How 'bout now?
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I've been a lurker on this board for months, but I feel like I have to jump in here. I think it's important to observe and correctly interpret individual dog behavior first, while keeping in mind the breed and what those breed tendencies are.
In Brooklyn, I think it's hard to make any generalizations about pit bulls, as almost all of them are actually mixes. Some are definitely more dog aggressive than others, but I know others who have been raised with children and other pets and are total marshmellows. I proceed with caution with the Pits I don't know when I'm out with my dog, but it's usually little dogs that act aggressively toward her - little dogs seem to get away with all kinds of things that would land a bigger dog in trouble. Luckily my dog has never reacted back at them in kind.
I don't want to gang up on Precious here, but on the subject of breed profiles: many Min Pins have dominance and aggression issues, and from the behavior you've described in your own dog, it's something you should watch carefully, not get all defensive about. Whether or not your dog is big enough to do the same damage as a Pit, any kind of aggressive reaction coming from a dog still in the puppy stage should be taken seriously. Being lunged at, snapped at etc. by a dog is very unpleasant no matter their size. WhyFi is correct in saying that if you pick up a small dog when it's misbehaving, that only reinforces the bad behavior.
Basically, a lot of owners are ignorant of/in denial about what their dog is communicating to others, and that's what you have to be careful about. I don't care what size/breed the dog is, I don't want to hear owners saying "oh, he's just being friendly" when he's obviously not, or making excuses for whatever the dog is doing, instead of correcting the problem. -
Thanks for posting the pic Why Fi Those roving gangs of kids with unleashed pitbulls have really become a problem in Prospect Park.
I'm curious about why you guys choose to own pitbulls though. People in my neighborhood seem to like them because they're intimidating and aggressive. Why not go for a breed that comes with less baggage? -
Once again, I am not suggesting that Min Pins are an easy or perfect breed. What I am saying, again, is that even the wildest most aggressive Min Pin in the world could not do the damage that Pits have done. That's all. This is not some kind of freakin contest about who has the best behaved dog, I just raised the fact that I *fear* certain breeds may be naturally more prone to kill humans than others. I am certainly not a dog trainer or a qualified animal behaviorist but then - correct me if I am wrong - neither is Why-Fi and neither are any of you who have posted here.
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Yavel wrote: Thanks for posting the pic Why Fi Those roving gangs of kids with unleashed pitbulls have really become a problem in Prospect Park.
Good question Yavel! Unfortunately, I doubt you will get much more than a lecture on rescuing dogs and how many pit bulls are abused and have needs and so on.
I'm curious about why you guys choose to own pitbulls though. People in my neighborhood seem to like them because they're intimidating and aggressive. Why not go for a breed that comes with less baggage?
Frankly, are there any traits endemic to the breed that make it a particularly good dog to own? They are very loyal, but most dogs are, the only difference is this one can back it up physically. Are they particularly smart or anything?
Sadly, I think most of the responsible dog owners getting pits are lookign to make a statement, either of their laughable street cred, or that they do not have a yuppie retriever or am hip toy dog.
For what it's worth, my dog is a mutt, which does reflect my own disdain of purebred anything. -
Yavel wrote: Thanks for posting the pic Why Fi Those roving gangs of kids with unleashed pitbulls have really become a problem in Prospect Park.
in my case, my pit mix, is a rescue.
I'm curious about why you guys choose to own pitbulls though. People in my neighborhood seem to like them because they're intimidating and aggressive. Why not go for a breed that comes with less baggage?
i was looking for a dog to adopt, ideally a pug
and i came across my girl as a 7 month old puppy
who had been left to die on bedford avenue
she was all scarred up and her skin had mange, so her hair had fallen out
the scars came from kids trying to make her into a fighting dog
when that didn't work out, they used her as a bait dog
when i saw how badly she needed my help. i couldn't say no
so i didn't choose a pit. her breed wasn't a concern
just that most of the dogs that need rescuing on the streets of brooklyn are pit mixes -
Oh, and my Min Pin growled at a kid who was mishandling her ONCE. WTF is up with this leap to the conclusion that my dog has dominance and aggressive issues? As I have already posted, the kid in question had her own dachsund with her. She was tugging hard on the doxie's legs and laughing and the dog didn't mind. Before I could stop her, she started tugging on my Min Pin's legs and then snatched her stick away and tapped her on the head with it. My Pin growled.
Anyway, Min Pins ARE known for being overly boisterous and very hard to train. I will openly admit that this breed is not for everyone and that the breed as a whole has a couple of not-so-great traits. But then, in my opinion, breeds like Pits often have far more worrying traits. If you get unlucky! -
steve wrote: [quote=Yavel]Thanks for posting the pic Why Fi Those roving gangs of kids with unleashed pitbulls have really become a problem in Prospect Park.
Good question Yavel! Unfortunately, I doubt you will get much more than a lecture on rescuing dogs and how many pit bulls are abused and have needs and so on.
I'm curious about why you guys choose to own pitbulls though. People in my neighborhood seem to like them because they're intimidating and aggressive. Why not go for a breed that comes with less baggage?
Frankly, are there any traits endemic to the breed that make it a particularly good dog to own? They are very loyal, but most dogs are, the only difference is this one can back it up physically. Are they particularly smart or anything?
Sadly, I think most of the responsible dog owners getting pits are lookign to make a statement, either of their laughable street cred, or that they do not have a yuppie retriever or am hip toy dog.
For what it's worth, my dog is a mutt, which does reflect my own disdain of purebred anything.
If people are adopting pits and pit mixes from the pound to save them from being put down, that's a good thing. But I personally would be scared to have a pit or pit mix in my home and not know anything about its background. Its a fact that some pits are spefifically bred for aggressive traits. How do you know that's not what you're getting? How do you know that one day, something might happen that triggers it? -
kosherdave wrote: [quote=shishkab]
I rolled over onto it, it bit me, I did not say the dog was injured, but I sure was. And yes, it was likley because it was old, I said that.
but to play devil's advocate for a moment, isn't it possible that the reason why the dog bit you was not that it snapped, but because it was an old dog who was injured by YOU first?shishkab wrote:
I did not say they made the decision, just that he was put down. I believe it is the law where I am from, that this is done. Not sure on that one though, could just be talk.
i can't and won't make a judgment call on your parents' decision to euthanize the GSD.
Yo, be careuful, the more you assume things in this case, the more you weaken your arguments. This boils down to one thing only, any dog can snap. Obviously there are multiple factors involved, but when a dog bites someone it's lived with for YEARS, something is wrong with the dog. And just to point out, no, the dog had NO problems other than age, no arthritus, no "painful conditions." You're digging for ways to excuse the fact as anything other than what it was. An unfortunate dog attack.
there are many factors we need to take into consideration when it comes to protecting our children. 'nuff said. but please, dave... couldn't it be possible that the dog was old and perhaps arthritic (GSDs as a breed often get terrible, crippling arthritis as they age. they also often have worsening hip dysplasia, another painful condition), and you rolled over onto its bum legs causing it pain and it lashed out? lashing out is different than "snapping".
thanks.I think Dave's experience sort of suggests that dogs CAN just snap. I very much doubt Dave's parents were drug dealers or thugs who trained the GSD to bite people. It sounds as though the dog was a loved and reliable family pet. Well, reliable until that night.
and yes, i care.. i'm glad you have no facial scars. must have been an awful experience for you (and no. there is no sarcasm attached to that statement. just sincerity). -
Precious Williams wrote: But then, in my opinion, breeds like Pits often have far more worrying traits.
And you admit to having no experience with pits - what I'm saying is, get some personal experience with the breed before spreading your negative opinion of them - would you give your opinion on the handling characteristics of 330i without ever driving a BMW? I wouldn't.
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