Why does everyone hate Park Slope?
Comments
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sweet tea wrote: um, not all (or even, i'd guess, many) gay feminists hate families, sausage.
That's been edited out, no personal connotations meant
although i'm not personally nuts about people who call me a "failure of society". (what does that even mean?)
.
The truth is that I hate bigotry in all forms, including reverse. That's what Park Slope hating is all about. The above poster is right on target, since we can't hate Blacks, Latinos, Gays, Jews, Poor, Leftists, Anarchists, etc...those people strike back by hating White, Asian, Rich, Families, Christan, Bush voting people.
I do agree that Park Slope may use more ethnic diversity, but so could Bed-Stuy. Do pass of one set of segregation as different than another. -
Even across the Pond they hate Park Slope--
This is from the British Telegraph:
I don't know if there is an exact British equivalent of Park Slope Parents (PSPs), but in terms of the horror and dismay they engender among other New Yorkers, they would be somewhere between Black Death victims and Burke and Hare.
Known to other New Yorkers by such affectionate nicknames as the "Stroller Mafia" and the "People's Republic of Park Slope", they have much in common with middle-class, liberal-leaning, multiple-baby-breeding North Londoners.
Here, it's taken to extremes. After all, does Islington have a supermarket that insists that if you want to shop there, you have to work there, too? Park Slope does - on any one day, the food co-op is full of off-duty mums and dads putting in their statutory two and a half hours a month, cluelessly stacking organic beans in the non-organic condiments section.
So, when a typed notice went up on lampposts in this leafy, affluent, child-infested Brooklyn neighbourhood headed "Infant Burned", there was little sympathy with the PSPs who had posted it. The infant's parents, Cori and Stu, needed help: "Our infant was burned by his nanny at Starbucks... she spilled a hot cup of tea on him and he suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns on his face, neck and shoulder. If anyone witnessed this incident please contact..." When the notice found its way to Gawker, the New York gossip website, readers piled in with abuse and ridicule. Perhaps correctly, everyone assumed mom and pop were preparing to sue the pants off their nanny.
People tend to assume the worst about the parents of this enclave. "Why does everyone hate Park Slope?" asks NY Time Out this week. Park Slopers say that it's because they're jealous, especially arrogant Manhattanites. Critics say that it's because they are parent fascists. In a city of the smug, Park Slopers are reviled as the smuggest.
PSPs keep in touch via the message boards of ParkSlopeParents.com, many of whose 5,155 members can punch out 1,200 words on the hormonal damage caused by plastics or the pros and cons of "Ferberizing" at the drop of a hat.
Perhaps best not to mention hats, given the agonised debate that followed an innocent "found: boy's hat" email, with accompanying picture, that was posted on the site. "What makes this a boy's hat?", one mother asked, bristling at the gender categorisation. Another said that the finder's speculation that it belonged to an "older child" showed a lack of consideration towards "younger children who happen to have larger heads".
Other Park Slope controversies that have prompted weeks of online soul-searching included a mother who wanted help in finding the delivery man she suspected had defecated or been sick - she wasn't quite sure which - in her building's hallway. She wanted a scalp. "Has anyone else ever experienced such a thing? Over the last week?" she wrote. "If so, maybe we can put our heads together about where we ordered from..."
Another mother's diatribe, about being criticised by an unknown nanny for breast-feeding a somewhat old child in the playground, turned into a debate on lactation and, inevitably, into a hunt for the nanny. A Park Slope dad complained about his own nanny - she'd lost two toy pushchairs (belonging to his son) and he wanted to know if other PSPs thought he should charge her.
An English PSP friend raves about the area - reeling off the celebrities who live there (the list is probably slipped under your front door when you move in) but admits he often feels that his parenting is being scrutinised. Our neighbour, a former PSP, said that what most annoyed her were people stopping her in the street when she was with her son and saying things such as: "Now, you will breastfeed until he's four, won't you."
Inevitably, it is with some trepidation, mixed with the curiosity of a visit to the zoo, that we venture through Park Slope whenever we need to get to the big park on the other side. For us less hands-on parents, this is enemy territory.
The Leonard wagon train draws in closer, the safety catches are clicked off our parenting skills. The children mustn't get too far ahead of us or too far behind, or the natives will close in for the kill. We try not to stop for anything. As Marika says: "We wouldn't last a minute there." -
park slope slope is great. if i had the money. i would move there in a heart beat. i eat in ps all the time.
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i live with my gf in a 1bed and its not that expensive.
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since we can't hate Blacks, Latinos, Gays, Jews, Poor, Leftists, Anarchists
I keep reading similar comments to this and have to wonder.... what are you guys talking about? Why do you think it used to be ok to hate these groups but now it's not. I'm not trying to set anything off, just want to understand what these comments mean. -
WTGirl wrote: Even across the Pond they hate Park Slope--
Interesting post, WT Girl. Weird attack on the Food Coop, because it's not like anyone forces people to joing the coop, or as if there are no other supermarkets around. I know the British are just as allergic to anything cooperative as Americans.
This is from the British Telegraph:
Known to other New Yorkers by such affectionate nicknames as the "Stroller Mafia" and the "People's Republic of Park Slope", they have much in common with middle-class, liberal-leaning, multiple-baby-breeding North Londoners.
I lived in Islington, which is the London equivalent of Park Slope, and there were similar young families with hip strollers etc. but a bit more diverse than PS. London in general is more of a vibrant hustle and bustle place than New York, apart from the posh West-end.
The parenting anxiety seems to be a NY-specific neurosis, NY being a place where fears and narcissism breed happily anyway. European parents are way more relaxed in general. People are not as uptight about exposing kids to swearing, smoking, drinking and nudity. To them it's all part of life. -
Subject: Re: Lets get our definitions straight here ...
charlesbklyn wrote: It's almost impossible to make a point on this board without someone attacking your point of view. Can't we all just get along?
word. Lets hear it for economic diversity. Brooklyn in the '70s and '80s was no joke. Where's the flavor? it's been priced out.
The REAL BROOKLYN
1) Tolerance
2) Diversity
3) Love
4) Community
5) Toughness
Anything else is somewhere else, and not our problem.
And yes, whether your a new arrival, or you have been here for years, there has always been someone before you, and its up to you to make it work. I've been here from my beginnings, and I don't mind other people moving into the neighborhood one bit. Anyone who states they hate new arrivals because they are different then the people before them shouldn't be in Brooklyn in the first place. It should be remembered, the 1970's "white flight" was the opportunity of a lifetime for people who did not mind living with others. Those people were practically giving their buildings away. It was "insane!" (Crazy Eddie)
Live with others, be tolerant, and stop hating mothers with children. If most of you were here in the 1980's, you'd wish that was the biggest problem you had; suckers.
Just keep Brooklyn Brooklyn.
Charlesbklyn -
Subject: Re: Lets get our definitions straight here ...
yoda wrote: [quote=charlesbklyn]It's almost impossible to make a point on this board without someone attacking your point of view. Can't we all just get along?
word. Lets hear it for economic diversity. Brooklyn in the '70s and '80s was no joke. Where's the flavor? it's been priced out.
The REAL BROOKLYN
1) Tolerance
2) Diversity
3) Love
4) Community
5) Toughness
Anything else is somewhere else, and not our problem.
And yes, whether your a new arrival, or you have been here for years, there has always been someone before you, and its up to you to make it work. I've been here from my beginnings, and I don't mind other people moving into the neighborhood one bit. Anyone who states they hate new arrivals because they are different then the people before them shouldn't be in Brooklyn in the first place. It should be remembered, the 1970's "white flight" was the opportunity of a lifetime for people who did not mind living with others. Those people were practically giving their buildings away. It was "insane!" (Crazy Eddie)
Live with others, be tolerant, and stop hating mothers with children. If most of you were here in the 1980's, you'd wish that was the biggest problem you had; suckers.
Just keep Brooklyn Brooklyn.
Charlesbklyn
Word.
Word to 1,000+ homicides in the borough
Word to chrushing poverty
Word to unemployment
Word to awful race relations
Word.
Seriously, Brownsville is not economically "diverse". Neither is ENY or Flatbush. Where's the uproar there. People here seem to equate poverty and crime to "flavor". I got news to you, enough young children get killed here every year. We don't need a return to the 70's. Keep in mind, the majority of people affected by crime are Black and Hispanic, so I kinda wonder the intentions of somebody who wants to bring that kind of era back (ie: they distain Blacks and Hispanics).
The 1970s and 1980s should not be emulated. 1500 young people being killed every year is not "flavor", it's sad.
It's not a race thing either. If Park Slope was 99% Black but was wealthy and successful, I'd do chartwheels. But it's 90% white, and you know what? That's cool too.
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Subject: Re: Gentrification Blues
charlesbklyn wrote: I'm not sure if we are talking about the same "gentrification." Before about 1994, the city was so dangerous that moving to New York was still a substantial risk to health and safety. I believe the people moving to New York at this time would not be "gentirifers" in the common usage of the phrase. Adventurous and non-risk adverse, yes.
Um, the slope was full of what were considered fancy expensive strollers in the late 80's when my kids were little. Not having a fancy stroller was a sign that you were not one of the "elite" slopers with money. The La Leche League ran rampant (hated them), the food coop was what it is, there were tons of misplaced Manhattanites moving into Brooklyn and West Indian and Puerto Rican families selling their homes to them. What district you lived in for Public School also clearly defined your "status", even in the face of the highly liberal nature of the area.
Also, the technology on strollers has greatly improved, and many seem to be fansy due to that increase.
Charlesbklyn
While Brooklyn at the time was still not the safest place to live, but it was FAR safer than it was in the late seventies and early eighties and price-wise an excellent alternative to FAMILIES who wanted to stay in the city and there were many, many families who lived here although many (like us) did ultimately migrate on the brooklyn train to Montclair. We moved because we couldn't compete, we couldn't get our kids into the "right" school because we couldn't afford to move into the "right" neighborhood. We couldn't afford a home here and at the time, we could afford a home in the highly integrated (and again, less desireable) Lower to Middle Class South End of Montclair where all of the schools are pretty much equal in quality. -
modoki wrote:
Ha. I lived NEAR Islington for a while too. Used to take the bus to the park.
I lived in Islington
Seems as though I'm always a little outside of the hip neighborhood box! -
lmboogie wrote:
The only people that I hate are stupid people when I have to work with them or deal with them in any meaningful way. I have tried to learn to be more tolerant.since we can't hate Blacks, Latinos, Gays, Jews, Poor, Leftists, Anarchists
I keep reading similar comments to this and have to wonder.... what are you guys talking about? Why do you think it used to be ok to hate these groups but now it's not. I'm not trying to set anything off, just want to understand what these comments mean.
Seriously, I don't think that it used to be "ok". I think that it used to be "acceptable" to hate minorities, etc. Somehow, I find it hard to believe that people hate Park Slopers (or upper middle class white liberal families) anywhere near to that same level. This overreaction reminds me a bit of those white people who don't get into College when some minority student does and how they scream "racism" when, in fact, it's the first time that they've had to deal with feeling discriminated against. -
/It's more a thing that people think reverse-racism is cool or makes them more "in touch", when in fact, it only reenforces the views of racists-racists in the first place:
tolerance != hate against the majority
hating the majority is not a pre-requiste for being accepting and/or an advocate for the minorty (weither racial, politcal, sexual, or otherwise). Park Slope could turn all Black and Puerto Rican tomorrow and as long as the people are friendly, the schools stay good and the neighborhood is suceesful and enriching, I wouldn't care. But for some reason, becuase Park Slope is majority White, people have "issues".
Same with the fact that it's wealthy and a baston for families. All of these cries for "flavor" have one hippocritical fact attached to them: NYC has plenty of "flavor", in places like Brownsville, Soundview, East Flatbush, etc....
Many so called "hipsters/artists" are escapees from the suburbs who fear Brooklyn turning to what they escaped: A largley White, Upper class, Family oritented suburb. It would ruin their "coolness" -
I understand your point but to be honest, I think that comparing Park Slope hatred to the kind of hatred that minorities and gays experience is kind of outrageous!
I think that people "hate", which is a strong word for this, lifestyles that they don't understand. Hipsters look down on Blue Coller people from outer Queens and long Island who like to eat out at TGIF and outback. Long time New Yorkers look down on people from New Jersey.
It's a far stretch from the racist mob attacks of the late 70's and early 80's that I grew up with, being forced to sit in the back of the bus or the lynchings that my father grew up with. -
filmlover44 wrote: I understand your point but to be honest, I think that comparing Park Slope hatred to the kind of hatred that minorities and gays experience is kind of outrageous!
i'm sorry you had to deal with that garbage. And I'm not trying to downplay the experiences of gays and minorites. But the point is we should embrace all of Brooklyn. Bensonhurst is just as cultural as Bed-Stuy. NYers display shocking xenophobia over the demographic changes sweeping over the city. From Asians moving into Bay Ridge to Whites in Bed-Stuy to Blacks in Marine Park. There may come a time when there is no longer 80% Black neighborhoods or 80% White neighborhoods or what's what will change. There may be a Black Bay Ridge one day. Bed-Stuy could turn into the UES. It's all good 8)
I think that people "hate", which is a strong word for this, lifestyles that they don't understand. Hipsters look down on Blue Coller people from outer Queens and long Island who like to eat out at TGIF and outback. Long time New Yorkers look down on people from New Jersey.
It's a far stretch from the racist mob attacks of the late 70's and early 80's that I grew up with, being forced to sit in the back of the bus or the lynchings that my father grew up with. -
I think that comparing Park Slope hatred to the kind of hatred that minorities and gays experience is kind of outrageous!
To compare is not just kind of outrageous... more like ignorant.Seriously, Brownsville is not economically "diverse". Neither is ENY or Flatbush. Where's the uproar there
The uproar will come when these neighborhoods are "diversified"
No one gave a shit about Harlem either but as soon as the ray of light extended past West 96 Street, you suddently had the "rebirth of harlem" I doubt you can buy a house in Harlem for less than 1M today.
If you consider that 48% (I made this % up or maybe I just heard it on Oprah) of young black & latino boys growing up today will end up in prison then how do you figure crime has gotten better? Maybe in this neighborhood but I assure you it's gotten a lot worse in other neighborhoods, i.e Brownsville. -
lmboogie wrote:
So what's your solution? Gentrification has that tricky side effect of increasing eyes on the street, which lowers drug trafficking. Which, of course, saves Black and Latino lives.I think that comparing Park Slope hatred to the kind of hatred that minorities and gays experience is kind of outrageous!
To compare is not just kind of outrageous... more like ignorant.Seriously, Brownsville is not economically "diverse". Neither is ENY or Flatbush. Where's the uproar there
The uproar will come when these neighborhoods are "diversified"
No one gave a shit about Harlem either but as soon as the ray of light extended past West 96 Street, you suddently had the "rebirth of harlem" I doubt you can buy a house in Harlem for less than 1M today.
If you consider that 48% (I made this % up or maybe I just heard it on Oprah) of young black & latino boys growing up today will end up in prison then how do you figure crime has gotten better? Maybe in this neighborhood but I assure you it's gotten a lot worse in other neighborhoods, i.e Brownsville.
It's a shame Harlem was ignored before the Gentry came, but 99% of Black males will be killed by another Black male. So who's problem is it? -
I wish I had a solution but I don't so I'm just as frustrated.
We could stop building prisons and start investing in education. I think that would be a huge step in the right direction.
How about we stop all this diversity bullshit and go back to segregation? except this time let's make it fair and equal. Worked in Tulsa except the black community became far more prospersous and it had to be burned down.
Black on black crime stems from such deep rooted institutional racism and self hatred that I'm afraid to even comment. It's not as easy as saying that black men are the problem. -
lmboogie wrote: I wish I had a solution but I don't so I'm just as frustrated.
As a white person sitting here taking it all in, I don't know what the Black community wants us to do. We're demeaned when we flee to the suburbs but when we invest in neighborhoods like Bed-Stuy and Harlem, we're "Yuppies" and "evil gentrifiers". We live in Brooklyn because we like Brooklyn. Most yuppies could flee to Nassau or Bergen counties if they wanted to, but instead many choose to raise their kids and shop these stores becuase we like the brownstones, the caribbean food, the BAM, the subway to Manhattan, the music, the culture.
We could stop building prisons and start investing in education. I think that would be a huge step in the right direction.
How about we stop all this diversity bullshit and go back to segregation? except this time let's make it fair and equal. Worked in Tulsa except the black community became far more prospersous and it had to be burned down.
Black on black crime stems from such deep rooted institutional racism and self hatred that I'm afraid to even comment. It's not as easy as saying that black men are the problem.
I wish there were more wealthy Black and Latino Brooklynites. But before that can happen, Black and Latinos have to apprecate themselves period. The ghetto was here long before starbucks. And many of these "Gap"s and "American apparels" employ young minority Brooklynites who otherwise might be slanging and doing dumb shit.
I can't stand posters like the above who think the 1970s and 1980s were cool. The homicide rate among young Black and Latino men was 10x higher in 1975 than 2005. I'm sorry, but I like what Brooklyn is becoming, and wish more minorites could join in. I would not be the least bit sad to see "economic diversity" go in favor of "prosperity for all". -
lmboogie wrote:
There have been extensive studies showing that 78.3% of statistics are completely made up on the spot.
If you consider that 48% (I made this % up or maybe I just heard it on Oprah) of young black & latino boys growing up today will end up in prison then how do you figure crime has gotten better? -
Ilikesausage has been right on target approximately 94.3% of the time in this thread.
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Subject: Re: Lets get our definitions straight here ...
Ilikesausage wrote: [quote=yoda][quote=charlesbklyn]It's almost impossible to make a point on this board without someone attacking your point of view. Can't we all just get along?
word. Lets hear it for economic diversity. Brooklyn in the '70s and '80s was no joke. Where's the flavor? it's been priced out.
The REAL BROOKLYN
1) Tolerance
2) Diversity
3) Love
4) Community
5) Toughness
Anything else is somewhere else, and not our problem.
And yes, whether your a new arrival, or you have been here for years, there has always been someone before you, and its up to you to make it work. I've been here from my beginnings, and I don't mind other people moving into the neighborhood one bit. Anyone who states they hate new arrivals because they are different then the people before them shouldn't be in Brooklyn in the first place. It should be remembered, the 1970's "white flight" was the opportunity of a lifetime for people who did not mind living with others. Those people were practically giving their buildings away. It was "insane!" (Crazy Eddie)
Live with others, be tolerant, and stop hating mothers with children. If most of you were here in the 1980's, you'd wish that was the biggest problem you had; suckers.
Just keep Brooklyn Brooklyn.
Charlesbklyn
Word.
Word to 1,000+ homicides in the borough
Word to chrushing poverty
Word to unemployment
Word to awful race relations
Word.
Seriously, Brownsville is not economically "diverse". Neither is ENY or Flatbush. Where's the uproar there. People here seem to equate poverty and crime to "flavor". I got news to you, enough young children get killed here every year. We don't need a return to the 70's. Keep in mind, the majority of people affected by crime are Black and Hispanic, so I kinda wonder the intentions of somebody who wants to bring that kind of era back (ie: they distain Blacks and Hispanics).
The 1970s and 1980s should not be emulated. 1500 young people being killed every year is not "flavor", it's sad.
It's not a race thing either. If Park Slope was 99% Black but was wealthy and successful, I'd do chartwheels. But it's 90% white, and you know what? That's cool too.
bull dooky. Flatbush, ENY, etc. do have economic diversity btw.
The '70s and '80s was no joke - not that it was glorious but that it was scary (that's what "no joke" means - serious, scary). So I agree with you, although you misread the post in order to inflate your prose, methinks.
Pete Hammil's brother Denis wrote an editorial piece about brooklyn neighborhoods losing their flavor. He was referring to the Italian/Irish-American flavor that Park Slope use to have. So linking flavor to black and latino culture is way off base. Flavor is a sense of place - distinct language, culture, food, music, smell. Unhomogenized. PS is way vanilla, mucho vanilla. It's all that suburban blah blah pretentious preoccupation with stuff. Wouldn't it be nice if folks weren't kicked out of their homes of 20 years and could live side by side with Emma and Jim? That's economic diversity. A little bit of yuppy, a little bit of blue collar, making a richer stew than what exists now. You don't get a strong sense of place here anymore.
Change happens, and it isn't always for the better. It just "is". So I cry over spilled milk. I'll go somewhere else. What other choice is there? A lot of folks are moving out, mostly because it's a pretentious hellhole and it's unaffordable to regular somewhat privileged working people. -
Subject: Re: Lets get our definitions straight here ...
yoda wrote: [quote=Ilikesausage][quote=yoda][quote=charlesbklyn]It's almost impossible to make a point on this board without someone attacking your point of view. Can't we all just get along?
word. Lets hear it for economic diversity. Brooklyn in the '70s and '80s was no joke. Where's the flavor? it's been priced out.
The REAL BROOKLYN
1) Tolerance
2) Diversity
3) Love
4) Community
5) Toughness
Anything else is somewhere else, and not our problem.
And yes, whether your a new arrival, or you have been here for years, there has always been someone before you, and its up to you to make it work. I've been here from my beginnings, and I don't mind other people moving into the neighborhood one bit. Anyone who states they hate new arrivals because they are different then the people before them shouldn't be in Brooklyn in the first place. It should be remembered, the 1970's "white flight" was the opportunity of a lifetime for people who did not mind living with others. Those people were practically giving their buildings away. It was "insane!" (Crazy Eddie)
Live with others, be tolerant, and stop hating mothers with children. If most of you were here in the 1980's, you'd wish that was the biggest problem you had; suckers.
Just keep Brooklyn Brooklyn.
Charlesbklyn
Word.
Word to 1,000+ homicides in the borough
Word to chrushing poverty
Word to unemployment
Word to awful race relations
Word.
Seriously, Brownsville is not economically "diverse". Neither is ENY or Flatbush. Where's the uproar there. People here seem to equate poverty and crime to "flavor". I got news to you, enough young children get killed here every year. We don't need a return to the 70's. Keep in mind, the majority of people affected by crime are Black and Hispanic, so I kinda wonder the intentions of somebody who wants to bring that kind of era back (ie: they distain Blacks and Hispanics).
The 1970s and 1980s should not be emulated. 1500 young people being killed every year is not "flavor", it's sad.
It's not a race thing either. If Park Slope was 99% Black but was wealthy and successful, I'd do chartwheels. But it's 90% white, and you know what? That's cool too.
bull dooky. Flatbush, ENY, etc. do have economic diversity btw.
The '70s and '80s was no joke - not that it was glorious but that it was scary (that's what "no joke" means - serious, scary). So I agree with you, although you misread the post in order to inflate your prose, methinks.
Pete Hammil's brother Denis wrote an editorial piece about brooklyn neighborhoods losing their flavor. He was referring to the Italian/Irish-American flavor that Park Slope use to have. So linking flavor to black and latino culture is way off base. Flavor is a sense of place - distinct language, culture, food, music, smell. Unhomogenized. PS is way vanilla, mucho vanilla. It's all that suburban blah blah pretentious preoccupation with stuff. Wouldn't it be nice if folks weren't kicked out of their homes of 20 years and could live side by side with Emma and Jim? That's economic diversity. A little bit of yuppy, a little bit of blue collar, making a richer stew than what exists now. You don't get a strong sense of place here anymore.
Change happens, and it isn't always for the better. It just "is". So I cry over spilled milk. I'll go somewhere else. What other choice is there? A lot of folks are moving out, mostly because it's a pretentious hellhole and it's unaffordable to regular somewhat privileged working people.
Well, I didn't mean to misquote you. However, many people use buzzwords like "flavor" and "Diversity" to show their distain for the increasingly White and Wealthy influx coming into Brooklyn. So I figured you were the same deal.
Sure, we shouldn't lose sight of the middle class. However, a lot of their plight has to do with the fact NYS takes far too much in taxes than it really needs. $40 Billion on Meidcare alone is a scam. Not to mention the not-so-hot schools. If the City lowered taxes and reinstituted neighborhood schools so good hoods can go to public school, then you'd see a big change.
As for ethnicty, that's been declining in America in general. Once you cross the Hudson, save for Chicago, most of America is pretty homogenous, which is the reason many of us are living here in Brooklyn to begin with.
I kinda like Spike Lee's Brooklyn, where theirs a rich Black hood and a rich Latino hood and a rich Italian hood and rich chinese hood and you have all the flavor of Brooklyn without the crime and dirt of ethnic neighborhoods. That'd be interesting. -
I really dont see the over whiteness of park slope. Sure there are alot of white people but we live in the US which is full of white people. Its no china town or Harlem but I dont feel like im surrounded by white people all of the time but I guess I live next to Flatbush ave which has more of a mix.
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Subject: Re: Lets get our definitions straight here ...
Ilikesausage wrote: As for ethnicty, that's been declining in America in general. Once you cross the Hudson, save for Chicago, most of America is pretty homogenous, which is the reason many of us are living here in Brooklyn to begin with.
Uh, your on target % just plummeted. Don't read the news much? Ethnic diversity in America is most certainly not declining, nor has it been. Quite the opposite, just fyi.
Now back to the subject at hand. -
Ilikesausage wrote:
As a white person sitting here taking it all in, I don't know what the Black community wants us to do. We're demeaned when we flee to the suburbs but when we invest in neighborhoods like Bed-Stuy and Harlem, we're "Yuppies" and "evil gentrifiers". We live in Brooklyn because we like Brooklyn. Most yuppies could flee to Nassau or Bergen counties if they wanted to, but instead many choose to raise their kids and shop these stores becuase we like the brownstones, the caribbean food, the BAM, the subway to Manhattan, the music, the culture.
I'm so sorry that it's so hard for you to please all of the Black community but it isn't one big monolithic group that has a plan for you! I would certainly stop worrying about it and keep enjoying the culture!
Are you referring to me who thinks that the 1970's and 80's were cool cause I don't recall saying that and I can't figure who else you might be talking about since I'm the one who moved here in the late 80's. Ok...I did kind of think that they were cool cause I was young and having lots of fun but it has nothing to do with segregation and gentrification.
When my dad moved to the upper W. 90's in Manhattan in the 70's, he was a gentrifier but he wasn't white. There were crackheads all over the neighborhood into the mid 80's and the brownstones across the street were full of cats. I think that they are now worth several million dollars. Most of the "gentry" moving to Harlem over the past 20 years or so have been black. Gentrification just happens and it's something that people just have to deal with. I do happen to think that it's not a bad thing, it's normal. I also believe that mixed income is necessary for a thriving neighborhood. Without it, you have Seattle.
I also think that it's naive to think that it doesn't come without growing pains for all sides.
I agree with you that it's all good! Brooklyn rocks. -
Subject: Re: Lets get our definitions straight here ...
[quote="Sure, we shouldn't lose sight of the middle class. However, a lot of their plight has to do with the fact NYS takes far too much in taxes than it really needs. $40 Billion on Meidcare alone is a scam. Not to mention the not-so-hot schools. If the City lowered taxes and reinstituted neighborhood schools so good hoods can go to public school, then you'd see a big change. .
As a homeowner that pays a ridiculously LOW amount of taxes, i have to say that is absurd! The reason NJ has more quality schools is because they pay 8-10,000/year in taxes. What do the multi-millionaire's pay in Brownstones on the park? $3,500 a year in property tax? (If they have been assessed?) I am sure someone here has the figure. I know my property taxes are low and Bloomberg talks about a rebate? Why not tax those of us who own property and put that towards improving schools and building affordable housing? And put that affordable housing in wealthy neighborhoods to help increase the economic diversity--that is if you can build something in the wealthier neighborhoods without a public outcry of fear and organized campaigns to halt it.
I do think that NY was definitely grittier and scarier in the 70s BUT it sure was interesting. There was a lot of interesting art happening and of course that was due to affordable rents allowing creative people to live closer together. Theater was more affordable and not taken over by Disney, and the stores were not flagship chain stores. So with increased safety, I think something was lost too. -
Subject: Re: Lets get our definitions straight here ...
WTGirl wrote:
But don't forget NYC has its own income tax.
As a homeowner that pays a ridiculously LOW amount of taxes, i have to say that is absurd! The reason NJ has more quality schools is because they pay 8-10,000/year in taxes. What do the multi-millionaire's pay in Brownstones on the park? $3,500 a year in property tax? (If they have been assessed?) I am sure someone here has the figure. I know my property taxes are low and Bloomberg talks about a rebate? Why not tax those of us who own property and put that towards improving schools and building affordable housing? And put that affordable housing in wealthy neighborhoods to help increase the economic diversity--that is if you can build something in the wealthier neighborhoods without a public outcry of fear and organized campaigns to halt it.
Financing public schools with property taxes (as they do in NJ) has created huge disparities all over the country.
One problem we have in NYC is that the state taxes we pay end up disproportionately financing schools upstate and in Long Island. -
Subject: Re: Lets get our definitions straight here ...
WTGirl wrote: [quote="Sure, we shouldn't lose sight of the middle class. However, a lot of their plight has to do with the fact NYS takes far too much in taxes than it really needs. $40 Billion on Meidcare alone is a scam. Not to mention the not-so-hot schools. If the City lowered taxes and reinstituted neighborhood schools so good hoods can go to public school, then you'd see a big change. .
As a homeowner that pays a ridiculously LOW amount of taxes, i have to say that is absurd! The reason NJ has more quality schools is because they pay 8-10,000/year in taxes. What do the multi-millionaire's pay in Brownstones on the park? $3,500 a year in property tax? (If they have been assessed?) I am sure someone here has the figure. I know my property taxes are low and Bloomberg talks about a rebate? Why not tax those of us who own property and put that towards improving schools and building affordable housing? And put that affordable housing in wealthy neighborhoods to help increase the economic diversity--that is if you can build something in the wealthier neighborhoods without a public outcry of fear and organized campaigns to halt it.
I do think that NY was definitely grittier and scarier in the 70s BUT it sure was interesting. There was a lot of interesting art happening and of course that was due to affordable rents allowing creative people to live closer together. Theater was more affordable and not taken over by Disney, and the stores were not flagship chain stores. So with increased safety, I think something was lost too.
Now this is 100% on target.^^^^^^^ -
Santa wrote: i live with my gf in a 1bed and its not that expensive.
Well, yeah, if you have two incomes contributing to rent I'm sure it's fine.Ilikesausage wrote: Many so called "hipsters/artists" are escapees from the suburbs who fear Brooklyn turning to what they escaped: A largley White, Upper class, Family oritented suburb. It would ruin their "coolness"
I'm too old to be part of the currently reviled "hipster/artist" crowd, but I am a bohemian musician/artist type who works freelance ... I escaped the suffocation of white midwestern suburbia in the mid-80s by moving to to Manhattan (initially the LES). In 1992 I moved from the Chelsea Hotel to PS and was thrilled with the increased standard of living that I'm now (again) being priced out of ... my last move involved having to get rid of about 1/3 of my belongings to move into a much smaller apartment.
I realize neighborhoods and market values change - fine. I also know all too well that I'm not the kind of person who fits into Normal World - I can't stomach an office job, am severely allergic to corporate bullshit, and can't live with another person. So I shouldn't complain ("beggars can't be choosers", my mom always said), but once upon a time PS was a place where a person like me could feel at home and have a swell apartment (with a garden!), and now it is becoming, well, not so much. So yes I'm a bit sad and bitter, because I thought I would live here forever, and now I wonder what I have to do to keep up. And I'm sorry, but the idea that a crap 500 sq ft apartment with no closets in the south slope is 'an absolute steal' at $2000 is ridiculous to me.
Anyhoo, I really bristle at that "ruining their coolness" remark. It's like when my mother always used to say with irritation, "Oh you just have to be different!!". As if I had a choice.escap wrote: Ethnic diversity in America is most certainly not declining, nor has it been. Quite the opposite, just fyi.
Haven't really seen that in East Lansing, Michigan. When I go "home" I want to shoot myself in the head after about 20 minutes. And that's before we even get to the local "pieces-of-flare"-type restaurant.WTGirl wrote: I do think that NY was definitely grittier and scarier in the 70s BUT it sure was interesting. There was a lot of interesting art happening and of course that was due to affordable rents allowing creative people to live closer together. Theater was more affordable and not taken over by Disney, and the stores were not flagship chain stores. So with increased safety, I think something was lost too.
Very true, I think. I missed the 70s and early 80s but even the mid-80s were quite vibrant and exciting for me, I was going to art galleries several times a week. I really miss that time. -
Subject: Re: Lets get our definitions straight here ...
escap wrote: [quote=Ilikesausage]As for ethnicty, that's been declining in America in general. Once you cross the Hudson, save for Chicago, most of America is pretty homogenous, which is the reason many of us are living here in Brooklyn to begin with.
Uh, your on target % just plummeted. Don't read the news much? Ethnic diversity in America is most certainly not declining, nor has it been. Quite the opposite, just fyi.
Now back to the subject at hand.
Let me rephrase, the ethnic neighborhood is declining. More and more immigrants are opting for the suburban lifestyle the people here have. More intergration. More Wal-Mart.
at least from what I see.
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