Mothers vs. Hipsters--is the divide that great?
Comments
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Connecticut Melons
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Yesss! This should be a new thread! So far we have:
Two Boobs
Teat Lounge
Connecticut Melons....
more more more!
And btw--breastfeeding anywhere a woman needs to is her right. If it freaks you out--get over it. Children are healthier--and that mom just might be a more attuned parent; thereby preventing all sorts of future problems. Who cares if their boobs are out?! She is doing what any one of you would (most likely) choose to do. It's healthiest, cheapest, and preventative for so many current ills; including obesity, allergies,sids, and asthma.
Off the soapbox.
But really--someone should start a new thread! -
I found the article annoying on the whole. And I forgot about the line about Fifth Avenue being comparable to the East Village. That's quite a stretch!
That being said, and I've read what everyone else read, I was in the TEa Lounge the other day. There were about seven moms and babies. They tend to block places where you might walk which is weird with strollers when there are other options. Then they didn't seem to talk about anything but their babies, their babysitters, their slings ... I know being a new mom must be overwhelming and exciting but can't you still talk about yourselves as people? about the world?
then there was a nanny across from them - totally separate, and separated - taking care of two babies. It was clear that she was not supposed to talk to them. It felt very uptight.
That article was presented as journalism - as an objective look - but it so wasn't. As a friend said, it was cloying. I felt like it was a love letter to Park Slope but needed to have some reality thrown in. Then again, I was curious what "SmartMom" would think so I looked at Only the Blog Knows Brooklyn and she thought it was a negative piece so?? -
cat wrote:
Wait, you sat there and listened to their conversation? Do you have nothing more important to do or think about?
That being said, and I've read what everyone else read, I was in the TEa Lounge the other day. There were about seven moms and babies. They tend to block places where you might walk which is weird with strollers when there are other options. Then they didn't seem to talk about anything but their babies, their babysitters, their slings ... I know being a new mom must be overwhelming and exciting but can't you still talk about yourselves as people? about the world? -
Huh?
I was sitting there for hours working on my computer. But enough drifted over. I was not that far away and it was sort of unavoidable (as are they). Not that I feel your snarky remark deserves comment since i'm certain you've been in coffee houses or restaurants and overheard other people's conversations. I certainly did have important things to do - and I DID them - but I also am curious about other people's lifestyles and this mommy thing is somewhat overwhelming in PS. Okay? -
Of course I overhear bits of other people's conversations and usually they are uninteresting to me, but I don't spend time thinking that their conversations are not up to my high standards for discourse or that the concerns of their lives are so banal that they should not be discussed at all.
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I think I should copyright the use of Two Boobs - or maybe it's blog-o-right, or forum-mark
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Sounds like any Mothers group. These are support groups for new Moms, and help them to get out of the house and not to feel so isolated.
Frankly, when you have a baby there really isn't anything more important than your baby, it's all absorbing. The darned little creatures take over every waking and sleeping section of your life for a little while.
Fortunately, children grow up and most Mothers become a little more interesting to people besides other Mothers.
Don't feel bad though. I listen in on other peoples conversations all of the time. -
thanks for putting it into perspective!
I can't help thinking that it might be good to vary the conversation a bit(from what I, yes, overheard -- it's hard not to be curious about what almost is being branded as another species, the Park Slope Mom, sorry!
) Even if it comes from the perspective that , like when babies are in the womb, they absorb what their moms are doing...filmlover44 wrote: Sounds like any Mothers group. These are support groups for new Moms, and help them to get out of the house and not to feel so isolated.
Frankly, when you have a baby there really isn't anything more important than your baby, it's all absorbing. The darned little creatures take over every waking and sleeping section of your life for a little while.
Fortunately, children grow up and most Mothers become a little more interesting to people besides other Mothers.
Don't feel bad though. I listen in on other peoples conversations all of the time. -
You know what intrigues me - it's the nature of mothering in the slope - where 50% are stay-at-home moms and 50% who hire nannies to raise their kids. The SAHMs congregate at certain places during certain hours and the nannies congregate at other certain places during other hours. It's fascinating to observe this phenomena.
I wonder if the "hire nannies" moms are envious of the women who let it hang out at Two Boobs? -
Then they didn't seem to talk about anything but their babies, their babysitters, their slings ... I know being a new mom must be overwhelming and exciting but can't you still talk about yourselves as people? about the world?
Nope, you can't. At that stage you ceasse to exist as a person in your own right, and more as a baby-appendage. It passes.
That being said, if you were the nanny sitting apart, would you want to be part of this group?then there was a nanny across from them - totally separate, and separated - taking care of two babies. It was clear that she was not supposed to talk to them. It felt very uptight.
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[quote="germfree!"]
Then they didn't seem to talk about anything but their babies, their babysitters, their slings ... I know being a new mom must be overwhelming and exciting but can't you still talk about yourselves as people? about the world?
Nope, you can't. At that stage you ceasse to exist as a person in your own right, and more as a baby-appendage. It passes.
That being said, if you were the nanny sitting apart, would you want to be part of this group?
HA. Okay, i guess not but I imagine even if that wasn't the "better" alternative, the nanny would still feel excluded somewhat. And I agree with other poster, there is a whole separation of the moms and babies and nannies and babies. Are the nannies outdoors at the Park?? -
cat wrote:
Birds of a feather, as they say. Moms hang with moms. Nannies hang with nannies. I think it really has more to do with common interests than exclusion.
Nope, you can't. At that stage you ceasse to exist as a person in your own right, and more as a baby-appendage. It passes.
That being said, if you were the nanny sitting apart, would you want to be part of this group? -
cat wrote:
I am just curious about why you single out the mothers for their horribly uninteresting conversation. Were the other people in the cafe discussing ways to end world hunger or how will deconstructionism survive the death of Derrida, or whatever topics you consider worthy of discussion? Because when I overhear people talking in cafes, usually they are talking about real estate or else "So, then I was all like, really? And he was like, yeah, I think so. And I was all, no f*cking way, and then he was like, yeah, and then . . . . "
I can't help thinking that it might be good to vary the conversation a bit(from what I, yes, overheard -- it's hard not to be curious about what almost is being branded as another species, the Park Slope Mom, sorry!) -
cat wrote: thanks for putting it into perspective!
Well, it might be good to vary the conversation but a Mother's group is ... er .. a Mother's group! That's what they are there for. Believe me, they do save your sanity. The thing unique about P.S. for Mothers is not what they talk about but the fact that there *is* so much support. When I moved to Montclair, it was depressing to go to the park and find no other Mothers there. There were plenty of Nannies and Au Pairs though, they spent all of their time talking to each other and didn't have much to say to me.
I can't help thinking that it might be good to vary the conversation a bit(from what I, yes, overheard -- it's hard not to be curious about what almost is being branded as another species, the Park Slope Mom, sorry!) Even if it comes from the perspective that , like when babies are in the womb, they absorb what their moms are doing...
I used to go to the Park every day and I met plenty of other Mothers there. I'm quite sure that our discussions were as dull as watching grass grow, it just didn't seem like it at the time!
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it's the nature of mothering in the slope - where 50% are stay-at-home moms and 50% who hire nannies to raise their kids.
i don't think this is a park slope phenom. try central park playground on either upper west or upper east. same deal, stay at home moms gathered in one corner... nannies in another corner, taking care of the kids. -
The Chipster wrote: And btw--breastfeeding anywhere a woman needs to is her right. If it freaks you out--get over it. Children are healthier--and that mom just might be a more attuned parent; thereby preventing all sorts of future problems. Who cares if their boobs are out?!
Now this I do have a problem with. I do not want to see another woman's bare boobs hanging out with a kid sucking a bodily fluid out of her while I am eating. Yes, women can breastfeed anywhere but does that mean they can't do it a little discreetly? The scene described at Two Boots was absurd. Unzipping your hoodie with nothing on underneath and walking around with your babies nursing? That woman was either daring someone to say something to her or was an exhibitionist. No, I don't think women's breasts are always sexual but I'd rather not see something like that while I'm eating. I don't make alot of money so when I do get to go out to eat (even when it's not a "fancy" place) I like to enjoy it as much as I can. I've seen mothers breastfeeding discreetly without drawing as much attention to themselves as possible. It can be done. I'm not saying they should feel ashamed or go hide in a corner but blatant disregard for other people is not okay. I try to be thoughtful of others around me, all I ask is the same. -
"cat" wrote:
I don't want to come across as patronizing but you don't know what parenthood is until you are in it. It kind of blindsides you. Nobody warns you how hard it is (or how great it is). The first few months are overwhelming. Often you are thrown together with other women (because if you don't get out of the house you will scream and bang your head against the wall) who you have NOTHING in common with except that you gave birth. Most of us don't live near our mothers and are desperate to figure things out. That doesn't give people the right to block aisles with strollers (that is just self centered either with kids or without) or ignore nannies (that is just classist and obnoxious with kids or without). I am just addressing why mothers talk about things like strollers, nursing etc. It is this "secret" information that you need other mothers to help you with. How to breastfeed, when did you try solids, and is the crying driving you crazy and whatnot. And god knows you CANNOT discuss ANY SMALL PART of parenthood with your friends who don't have children. They don't want to hear it unless you are making witty ironic comments. So that help to make a divide between parents and non-parents frankly.
That being said, and I've read what everyone else read, I was in the TEa Lounge the other day. There were about seven moms and babies. They tend to block places where you might walk which is weird with strollers when there are other options. Then they didn't seem to talk about anything but their babies, their babysitters, their slings ? -
"bklyngirl" wrote:
Funny that was my experience in liberal Park Slope but since leaving the slope--that has NOT been my experience. I know TONS of nannies now and when I am in the playground I often sit and join them. I haven't made a lifelong friend but then I haven't made a lifelong friend of any of the moms this year either.
Birds of a feather, as they say. Moms hang with moms. Nannies hang with nannies. I think it really has more to do with common interests than exclusion. -
WTGirl wrote: And god knows you CANNOT discuss ANY SMALL PART of parenthood with your friends who don't have children. They don't want to hear it unless you are making witty ironic comments. So that help to make a divide between parents and non-parents frankly.
This is very true.
On the nanny thing, okay, my kids are teenagers so this was a while ago, but the woman I hung out with most when I was home with my kids was a nanny who took care of a kid across the street. Most of the other mothers were kind of dismissive when they learned that I was planning to go back to work in the short-term -- not in a mean way, but they clearly weren't going to put any energy into being friends with me. -
WTGirl wrote: [quote=bklyngirl]
Funny that was my experience in liberal Park Slope but since leaving the slope--that has NOT been my experience. I know TONS of nannies now and when I am in the playground I often sit and join them. I haven't made a lifelong friend but then I haven't made a lifelong friend of any of the moms this year either.
Birds of a feather, as they say. Moms hang with moms. Nannies hang with nannies. I think it really has more to do with common interests than exclusion.
Not my experience. Where do you live? -
For women who have been given dirty looks for nursing, thrown out of stores by a rude and ignorant Brooklyn Toys R Us employee; for Jackie Mercado who lost custody of her child for 6 MONTHS after nursing him at Eckerd's because she was charged with "sexual performance on a child"; because breastfeeding women will have to nurse in public whether they OR you like it or not; for these reasons and more; I say
GET OVER IT.
Maybe that woman at Two Boobs was an exhibitionist; but if we were used to seeing it more--she wouldn't be reacting to her surroundings, and you wouldn't be reacting to her.
You'd be indifferent.
Mothers in Africa, Mexico, Peru, India, all wear their babies and nurse "in public." Are those mothers disrespected in their culture? Or are they valued and depended upon? Do we romanticize them while criticizing our own mothers?
Cultural norms.
Breasfeeding should be one.
(But please, don't expect me to let you cut in line just because you are a nursing mom. Respect works both ways mama)
Off soapbox.
Drink down. -
Many things should be the cultural norm here but they aren't. And comparing the woman at Two Boots with Jackie Mercado is inappropriate. Since no one else has brought it up then I will. Bare breasts are bare breasts. Why does the act of breastfeeding make it okay to expose yourself? If one group of women are allowed to show their boobs then all women should be allowed to show their boobs. And I don't have a problem with women breastfeeding in public. I have a problem with women who do it in such a way as to attract as much attention as possible. I don't romanticize mothers in other countries while criticizing mothers here. I don't romanticize mothers at all. I refuse to believe that there's just no way at all to breastfeed without letting it all hang out.
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As loathe as I am to employ the cafeteria analogy as used by the writer of the Times article, the nanny/mother dynamic can be seen in this light. Apart from exchanging casual pleasantries, why would the twain ever meet?
In the playgounds I always found the nanny 'gang' to be a phalanx of rather intimidating women who all sat together and seemingly knew each other. On the other side of the playground/cafeteria was a ragtag bunch of mums chasing after our kids, and, dare I say, monitoring their interaction with the kids whose nannies weren't paid enough to look after them sufficiently.
Oh, yes I did. -
"germfree!" wrote: As loathe as I am to employ the cafeteria analogy as used by the writer of the Times article, the nanny/mother dynamic can be seen in this light. Apart from exchanging casual pleasantries, why would the twain ever meet?
I live in Windsor Terrace and use a playground used heavily by WT and Kensington Families. Some of the nannies live a few blocks from me. What do we have to talk about? For one thing? The kids. Another? Stuff on T.V. Another? their kids. Another? Headlines in the news, recipes etc. Most of the nannies i know watch the kids better then some of the mothers. I am not the only mother who hangs out with the nannies. There is a kind of "we are in this together" attitude as we all chase and help each other with kids.
In the playgounds I always found the nanny 'gang' to be a phalanx of rather intimidating women who all sat together and seemingly knew each other. On the other side of the playground/cafeteria was a ragtag bunch of mums chasing after our kids, and, dare I say, monitoring their interaction with the kids whose nannies weren't paid enough to look after them sufficiently.Oh, yes I did.
I agree with Rose though--I am in limbo. I don't work full time and so the stay at homes don't really bother with me. In some ways there is a jealousy because I worked out a "deal" where I work from home part time and have a caregiver those days. But there are no "deals", I am fortunate to have worked to create this freelance life, but I work hard the days I work (no time at a watercooler) and am often alone. -
caseopele wrote: [quote=The Chipster]And btw--breastfeeding anywhere a woman needs to is her right. If it freaks you out--get over it. Children are healthier--and that mom just might be a more attuned parent; thereby preventing all sorts of future problems. Who cares if their boobs are out?!
Now this I do have a problem with. I do not want to see another woman's bare boobs hanging out with a kid sucking a bodily fluid out of her while I am eating. Yes, women can breastfeed anywhere but does that mean they can't do it a little discreetly? The scene described at Two Boots was absurd. Unzipping your hoodie with nothing on underneath and walking around with your babies nursing? That woman was either daring someone to say something to her or was an exhibitionist. No, I don't think women's breasts are always sexual but I'd rather not see something like that while I'm eating. I don't make alot of money so when I do get to go out to eat (even when it's not a "fancy" place) I like to enjoy it as much as I can. I've seen mothers breastfeeding discreetly without drawing as much attention to themselves as possible. It can be done. I'm not saying they should feel ashamed or go hide in a corner but blatant disregard for other people is not okay. I try to be thoughtful of others around me, all I ask is the same.
i agree here. breastfeeding is both a mother's right and child's need. nobody is arguing that. but there seems to be this familiarity aspect at play. just because you're in a place where moms enjoy congregating, a place that is baby-friendly, doesn't mean you should act as though you're in your own home in regard to feeding your baby.
would a group of moms nurse this way if they were sitting in the playground? if they were outside at two boots? i don't think so.
there should be some decorum at play, and basically it comes down to whether you'd walk around half naked if you came to visit me in my home. would you? because a restaurant is not that much different from a private home when it comes to this. if you walked around shirtless in my home, i'd think that was exceptionally rude and inappropriate. if you wouldn't do it in someone's home, why would you do it in a restaurant? -
Chipster, considering you described PS women as
"no makeup, frizzy hair, loose pants, new pedicure, waxed eyebrows, $300. cell phone permanently attached, overpriced hoodies, old granny panties, recognized by her self entitled p.c. aroma.. "
I'm not sure why you're suddenly all behind the mommy cause. It's not exactly like you were pro-mommy in the Park Slope uniform thread. If they're so frumpy and awful, why you wanna see their boobies? -
Wow, germfree - your choice of descriptive terms to describe mothers and nannies speaks volumes...."nanny 'gang' to be a phalanx of rather intimidating women..." vs. "ragtag bunch of mums chasing after our kids..." Got issues?
And, if breast-feeding were a crime...
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I don't think a single person on this thread has said that women shouldn't be allowed to breastfeed in public. The thing people have taken issue with is how the individual described was breastfeeding in that particular location (a restaurant). Enough with the hyperbole about "breastfeeding is not a crime."
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whoa carni - where's that sense-of-humor this morning?
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