Woman Screaming Help on 2nd Street at midnight
Comments
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I'm so proud of us all ganging together to so thoughtfully discuss race, racism, and the implications of, um...I give up.
It's just so easy to get irate/self-righteous/offensive on a message board. And not very productive, it seems. Like-minded people (on either side of any issue) gang up on those they disagree with. Everyone claims they know better than the rest. No one seems to change anyone else's mind.
I say next time an issue like this comes up, we all meet at a bar. We debate the issue for 30 minutes, max, then drink and talk about other things and get to know each other.
Anyone second the motion? -
No one seems to change anyone else's mind.
i wish i could figure out how to change some of their minds.I say next time an issue like this comes up, we all meet at a bar. We debate the issue for 30 minutes, max, then drink and talk about other things and get to know each other.
i'm in. i think that's a great idea.
Anyone second the motion? -
i'm in. i think that's a great idea
WAIT. is that safe? no really. this is my first board and all. -
I'm offended that someone posts something that's basically the equivalent of a newspaper write up on a police report and gets a new one ripped. So, sorry if I offended you, but obviously offense is taken pretty easily around here and it's ridiculous.
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i am forever interested in what i think of as visible and invisible categories -- descriptors that do and don't get applied to people. generally speaking, invisible descriptors -- those that do not get mentioned -- belong to whatever the speaker/society/whatever considers the dominant group.
for example:
rapper vs white rapper
construction worker vs female construction worker
lunatic vs naked lunatic
chimpanzee vs chimp in pants
there are dozens if not hundreds of these in general usage -- and many that jump out in older writing because they've fallen out of use as a given profession, etc., has become more mixed (c.f. "lady doctor", "woman driver"). it's good to question the assumptions behind these linguistic patterns, i think, but a mistake to assume that the person speaking or writing is necessarily doing anything "wrong" -- they're probably just speaking the common language, as we all do most of the time. seen in this light, a "black mugger" might be distinguished linguistically because "mugger" is most likely to be understood as white.... just something to think about.
all that said, one reason to identify perps by race (or any other potentially identifiable characteristic) and not victims is that there's no need to be on the look out for the victims. this might be different in the case of a perp who seems to commit racially motivated crimes -- like a white man with a habit of pummelling Inuit teens, for instance. the fact that LIGH DID NOT identify the races of the (non-white) couple is an indication, i think, that his description of the perps as black was intended in this way.
it is certainly often the case that crimes are treated differently by the media depending on the appearance of the perp and victims. (white woman vs black woman kidnapped, say.) but i don't think that's the case with LIGH's description. -
it's good to question the assumptions behind these linguistic patterns,
that's all i was doing. my original post asked ligh why?mistake to assume that the person speaking or writing is necessarily doing anything "wrong"
we need to start questioning the common language so that we can move towards change... just like it is now uncommon to say "lady doctor"one reason to identify perps by race (or any other potentially identifiable characteristic) and not victims is that there's no need to be on the look out for the victims
i get this and at some level agree.the fact that LIGH DID NOT identify the races of the (non-white) couple is an indication, i think, that his description of the perps as black was intended in this way.
except the perps had already been captured so we weren't on the look out.
again, i don't think ligh was intentionally putting out a racist statement or being a racist. -
lmboogie wrote:
yes, i should have been more clear. i meant that general practice of identifying perps visually is useful and that the style of LIGH's description -- which others have pointed out is a standard journalistic style -- is formed by that practical consideration.the fact that LIGH DID NOT identify the races of the (non-white) couple is an indication, i think, that his description of the perps as black was intended in this way.
except the perps had already been captured so we weren't on the look out. -
i meant that general practice of identifying perps visually is useful and that the style of LIGH's description
i'm with you and agree. thanks for engaging in the discussion instead of assuming i was "ripping ligh a new one" what ever the hell that really means. -
i meant that general practice of identifying perps visually is useful and that the style of LIGH's description -- which others have pointed out is a standard journalistic style -- is formed by that practical consideration.
Exactly. Discussion, at least about my reporting skills, over, yes?
Larger issues raised on this thread, well I'd split it off into a new topic or lmboogie, you can certainly start your own treaded post on the larger debate. For now, I'm signing off on this one.
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well I'd split it off into a new topic or lmboogie, you can certainly start your own treaded post on the larger debate
no sir, i'm done now.... unless you decide to report on the race of a perp captured... then it's on again. -
For all the lucky people here who obviously have never had any brushes with crime here's what you need to know - it is totally standard to identify race first in any report of a crime. Along with other details if there are any. Surely you've seen that, come on. If they know the guy is heavset they'll say that. If they know the guy has tatoos they'll say that. And, uh, YES they will say the guy is white if they know he is white. Why on earth would anybody think otherwise? It's absurd.
If the perps have not been caught yet, the descriptions can help the police find them. If they did catch them, like they did in this case, it can bring forth other reports that help the prosecuters put the guys away longer, if that's what's deserved. What if one block away somebody else got mugged by these guys but didn't call the cops? My husband got mugged in Park Slope years ago and didn't bother calling the cops about it. Happens all the time. But if he'd seen a police report about another mugging nearby that night or that week, maybe he would have stepped forward. -
littlehouseinbrklyn wrote: For all the lucky people here who obviously have never had any brushes with crime here's what you need to know - it is totally standard to identify race first in any report of a crime. Along with other details if there are any. Surely you've seen that, come on. If they know the guy is heavset they'll say that. If they know the guy has tatoos they'll say that. And, uh, YES they will say the guy is white if they know he is white. Why on earth would anybody think otherwise? It's absurd.
I really don't want to start an argument based on the responses here but you must be kidding!!
If the perps have not been caught yet, the descriptions can help the police find them. If they did catch them, like they did in this case, it can bring forth other reports that help the prosecuters put the guys away longer, if that's what's deserved. What if one block away somebody else got mugged by these guys but didn't call the cops? My husband got mugged in Park Slope years ago and didn't bother calling the cops about it. Happens all the time. But if he'd seen a police report about another mugging nearby that night or that week, maybe he would have stepped forward.
You justify that your husband DID NOT call the police when he got mugged because he was not aware there were other muggings that night?/ (Could I be reading this correctly?) duh.. So your husband gets mugged, does not report it.. what about the poor shmuck that gets mugged that same night 2 blocks a way and does report it . The cops follow through thinking that mugging was an isolated incident that night.
Sorry.. It is hard for me to consider whatever you posted about the subject of the thread when your moral standards seem to screwy to me. -
I'm not saying what he did was superfabulous. Hardly. Read my post again. All I was saying is for whatever reason it's something people do, to decide not to report a crime. It's common. I call the cops at the drop of a hat! So I don't get it either. But it's human behavior, and I was merely pointing it out in order to show why "police blotter" reports can help motivate people to report crimes when they see something similar to the crime they experienced.
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Another thing, Veets, for "not wanting to start an argument" your comments were very judgemental and pretty offensive. You read things into my post, that I didn't even say. You need to watch the heated tone and read people's posts more carefully when you are online. Otherwise you really will start lots of arguments.
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But if he'd seen a police report about another mugging nearby that night or that week, maybe he would have stepped forward.
this is absurd. is it possible your husband didn't report it because he couldn't identify the perps? let me get this straight.... a crime is committed, you don't report it but then see a blurb on a police blotter saying two white men mugged a couple on 3st and you decide to report it because two white men mugged you. -
Well, I'm just glad the couple is well and that the (alleged) muggers were caught.
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i been mug more times than everyone combined on this message board lol probably. i could list all the punks by race to make everyone feel better.
i got mug by asian kids twice.
i got mug by white kid 3 times.
i got mug by hispanic kids 7 times.
i got mug by black kids 11 times but i lost count after that.
anyway it depended where i was living at the time. but after many times i lost count. this is all pre mid 90's. after the 90's never got mugged. -
lmboogie wrote:
Yep.. what Littlehouse said struck me as pretty absurd!!But if he'd seen a police report about another mugging nearby that night or that week, maybe he would have stepped forward.
this is absurd. is it possible your husband didn't report it because he couldn't identify the perps? let me get this straight.... a crime is committed, you don't report it but then see a blurb on a police blotter saying two white men mugged a couple on 3st and you decide to report it because two white men mugged you.
And then on top of that she insults me for pointing out the absurdity!
Well I am ready to let go of the insult.
Affirmation to follow
Poof poof .. May I be surrounded by a white light that protects me from muggers off all shapes and sizes and races and "Newbies" on this forum that insult me. -
Hey Veets.... when did you get so sensitive?
I don't think littlehouse's idea was so absurd. Anyway - you did respond pretty harshly. People should be able to have a difference of opinion without getting slammed. -
Jamzer.. I agree with you!
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If a black person mugs, it is useful to say so. Same for a white person. "The witness told police the perp was a white male in his 20s, wearing a Fendi baseball cap." Nothing racist about merely stating skin color. And, when more white males mug people than do black males, perhaps people will cease being afraid of encountering black males at night and begin fearing white males. Sad, but true.
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more white males mug people than do black males, perhaps people will cease being afraid of encountering black males at night and begin fearing white males.
i know what you mean. when i see white males at night, i'm afraid they are serial killers and are going to kidnap me and then eat pieces of my body. if i see a white male during the day... i usually yell for my neighbors to grab their kids cuz i'm afraid he is going to molest them. if i see a group of white kids i'm terrified they are on their way to shoot up the school.
does that in any way sound ignorant to you? just a little bit? -
This debate again? OK, lmboogie, time for you to start a thread on this very topic. I'd throw it into the "Brooklyn & Beyond" board. PM when you have and I'll cross post it...may be
Try to be objective as possible, but with your own POV, of course. Ought to be a good discussion... -
hey, how do i get private messages from my outbox to my sendbox? i just realized some messages go to outbox instead of sent box. sorry, just learning how to use the PM.
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I received your PM just fine, so you are doing it AOK
They goto out box first, then sent once they have been read by the recipient. -
LordBrock wrote: If a black person mugs, it is useful to say so. Same for a white person. "The witness told police the perp was a white male in his 20s, wearing a Fendi baseball cap." Nothing racist about merely stating skin color. And, when more white males mug people than do black males, perhaps people will cease being afraid of encountering black males at night and begin fearing white males. Sad, but true.
So what do you tell the cops if a
bi-racial Asian man with a suntan who might be Hispanic or then again black mugs you?
I would think that height and body frame would be more important. -
As Imboogie says, race is almost never relevant, but whenever I've tried to avoid giving race as a descriptive (I was talking to Bob. You know Bob - the tall guy who sits over by Marie in marketing?) people usually don't cotton on until I mention that he's black. There's an underlying assumption that a man is white unless otherwise stated.
I assume that in Africa, saying someone is white may be the quickest way to identify them. I think people always look for the most distinguishing feature when describing someone. But it is sad, and I hope eventually this kind of description goes the way of "lady doctor." -
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