Drug Raid on Lincoln and Washington Last Night

dinkyla wrote: By the way, how in the world do you know this? Because if there's a book about how to deal drugs, I simply must buy it. I already know where to buy books on turning women out (author: Iceberg Slim).

Freakonomics has a great chapter in it about why most drug dealers live with their parents. AND- it was recommended to me by a black woman in Newark, lol, FWIW.

dinkyla wrote: daver, I'm not sure you understand the meaning of racism vs. the meaning of discrimination. Racism is a system. Blacks can't be racist against whites until we own the power structure. We can discriminate, which can feel awful, but it's not the same thing.

Though there are problems with this analogy, the way I often is explain it like this --

If a two-year-old child slaps her mother in the face, does that mean she has abused her parent? No. Because the slap can't be that strong, and ultimately mommy has all the power.

Of course, the problem with the analogy is that it equates being black to being a child, and that's where it is silly, but the power part of it stills hold up, I think.

Perhaps dreaddj shouldn't have put it in terms of black vs. white, but his point is still valid. Someone named "crooklyn" is complaining because there are drugs on her block. Doesn't anyone see the irony of this?

Eight years ain't nothin in the history of Brooklyn. Eight years ago is when the gentrification of Prospect Heights was really starting to ramp up. The only folks really qualified to talk about knowing this neighborhood IMHO are people who've bee here for 15 years or more. Yes, even before I got here. I'm as gentrified as the rest of you, with my boarding school and Ivy League self. But I'm not going around complaining about a neighborhood that I moved to because it was cheap. It was cheap because of the very stuff that's annoying everyone about it.

I am not white, I have a HUGE problem with that BUT I am NOT moving anywhere because I can still defend myself and I LOVE Brooklyn which is the only place I have lived in the US.
As for the outlaws, I am free to criticize them because your argumentation really serves those who patronize racism as it is a demonstration of the fact that what is wrong is fine because it is done by certain people living under particular circumstances in a specific neigbourhood. There is no logic to that, so quality of life is only reserved to white folks?????

I work hard, play hard and most important pay my taxes on time, I deserve a certain quality of life, reagardless of my skin color!

Cool, another racist to try and take a reasonable discussion of drug dealing and street crime and reduce it to blacks vs. whites. Again.

You get bonus points for directing your race-baiting statements at a BLACK person, sheesh.

There are a lot of good points and discussion happening in this thread, please don't derail it with this nonsense again.







It's obvious that you DIDN'T read the whole post and the moment that you made it a race issue you basically played yourselves. This is not a race issue it's an economic issue. Your obvious upset at my comments because of maybe you guys are embarrased by your fellow brothers and sisters actions. You are educated and have lived a priviliged life and I commend you for that, but the fact of the matter is this MOST of these individuals do the things that they do because first: it's all they know and two: their education and economic situation may have FORCED them to do this? or have you even consider that. That's why WE as a people cannot get further than we are now cause the priviledged (like yourselves) cannot or refuse to relate to the disinfranchised (like them). I understand and relate your love for Brooklyn but would you want a homginized Brooklyn with automitons walking around with their 2.5 children or do you want a brooklyn with life, vitality and a little bit of danger. I myself would rather have the latter beacuse that's what makes life interesting and it makes you aware of the dangers of this world and not isolated from them.

daver wrote: I don't see this as "obviously a race-related issue", seeing as that people on both sides of the issue are black. Some ways to talk civilly about race are to 1) not inject it into discussions where it is not needed, 2) not make blanket statements such as "you people", and 3) recognize that every color and culture in this country has been discriminated against and will continue to be discriminated against by someone somewhere.

Okay, well then we disagree about whether or not this is a race-related issue.

But my question is still valid. If one is having a discussion, and one person (and obviously I'm not the only one) feels something about the discussion is a race issue, how do people talk about it? I'm asking a real question here. Recognizing that everyone has been discriminated (or enslaved?) against is a good starting point, but surely there's more to it than that?

How is one to judge what discussion it is "not needed" in? And how is one to address the concerns of those people who do feel it's needed?

dinkyla wrote: Okay, well then we disagree about whether or not this is a race-related issue.

But my question is still valid. If one is having a discussion, and one person (and obviously I'm not the only one) feels something about the discussion is a race issue, how do people talk about it? I'm asking a real question here. Recognizing that everyone has been discriminated (or enslaved?) against is a good starting point, but surely there's more to it than that?

How is one to judge what discussion it is "not needed" in? And how is one to address the concerns of those people who do feel it's needed?

OK then, fair enough. I feel that drug dealing and street crime is NOT race issue. I agree with something someone said above about it being more of an economic issue. It you go to white areas with similar income/education levels, I guarantee that you will find similar problems.

Racism definitely exists, and there is a subset of white people that assume that a group of black youths hanging out on a stoop are dealing drugs, without regard to reality. That is bullshit. And it is also not what this thread is about. This thread was about _real_ (not perceived) drug dealing and drug busts in this particular area. Which I believe has nothing to do with the color of anyone's skin.

You seem to believe differently, so I ask you why do _you_ think it is a race issue?

Okay --

lower on the wikipedia page:

Sociological Definitions

Some sociologists have defined racism as a system of group privilege. In Portraits of White Racism David Wellman (1993) has defined racism as "culturally sanctioned beliefs, which, regardless of intentions involved, defend the advantages whites have because of the subordinated position of racial minorities,” (Wellman 1993: x). Sociologists Noel Cazenave and Darlene Alvarez Maddern define racism as “...a highly organized system of 'race'-based group privilege that operates at every level of society and is held together by a sophisticated ideology of color/'race' supremacy. Racist systems include, but cannot be reduced to, racial bigotry,” (Cazenave and Maddern 1999: 42). Sociologist and former American Sociological Association president Joe R. Feagin argues that the United States can be characterized as a "total racist society" because racism is used to organize every social institution (Feagin 2000, p. 16). This stands in contrast to a definition that presumes racism to be an irrational form of bigotry that is not connected to the organization of social structure.

But I like marijuana.

Are you saying that all drug dealers should operate by phone? Because that's racist. Seriously. There's a textbook somewhere that says this.

dreaddj wrote: [quote=dinkyla]daver, I'm not sure you understand the meaning of racism vs. the meaning of discrimination. Racism is a system. Blacks can't be racist against whites until we own the power structure. We can discriminate, which can feel awful, but it's not the same thing.

Though there are problems with this analogy, the way I often is explain it like this --

If a two-year-old child slaps her mother in the face, does that mean she has abused her parent? No. Because the slap can't be that strong, and ultimately mommy has all the power.

Of course, the problem with the analogy is that it equates being black to being a child, and that's where it is silly, but the power part of it stills hold up, I think.

Perhaps dreaddj shouldn't have put it in terms of black vs. white, but his point is still valid. Someone named "crooklyn" is complaining because there are drugs on her block. Doesn't anyone see the irony of this?

Eight years ain't nothin in the history of Brooklyn. Eight years ago is when the gentrification of Prospect Heights was really starting to ramp up. The only folks really qualified to talk about knowing this neighborhood IMHO are people who've bee here for 15 years or more. Yes, even before I got here. I'm as gentrified as the rest of you, with my boarding school and Ivy League self. But I'm not going around complaining about a neighborhood that I moved to because it was cheap. It was cheap because of the very stuff that's annoying everyone about it.

I am not white, I have a HUGE problem with that BUT I am NOT moving anywhere because I can still defend myself and I LOVE Brooklyn which is the only place I have lived in the US.
As for the outlaws, I am free to criticize them because your argumentation really serves those who patronize racism as it is a demonstration of the fact that what is wrong is fine because it is done by certain people living under particular circumstances in a specific neigbourhood. There is no logic to that, so quality of life is only reserved to white folks?????

I work hard, play hard and most important pay my taxes on time, I deserve a certain quality of life, reagardless of my skin color!

Cool, another racist to try and take a reasonable discussion of drug dealing and street crime and reduce it to blacks vs. whites. Again.

You get bonus points for directing your race-baiting statements at a BLACK person, sheesh.

There are a lot of good points and discussion happening in this thread, please don't derail it with this nonsense again.







It's obvious that you DIDN'T read the whole post and the moment that you made it a race issue you basically played yourselves. This is not a race issue it's an economic issue. Your obvious upset at my comments because of maybe you guys are embarrased by your fellow brothers and sisters actions. You are educated and have lived a priviliged life and I commend you for that, but the fact of the matter is this MOST of these individuals do the things that they do because first: it's all they know and two: their education and economic situation may have FORCED them to do this? or have you even consider that. That's why WE as a people cannot get further than we are now cause the priviledged (like yourselves) cannot or refuse to relate to the disinfranchised (like them). I understand and relate your love for Brooklyn but would you want a homginized Brooklyn with automitons walking around with their 2.5 children or do you want a brooklyn with life, vitality and a little bit of danger. I myself would rather have the latter beacuse that's what makes life interesting and it makes you aware of the dangers of this world and not isolated from them.

Any suggestions or best practices on how to "relate to the disinfranchised"? should I say Hi to them, Should I sell drugs with them or should I smoke weed with them in order to further my integration in "their" neighbourhood? I would really appreciate some concrete examples on how to build that relationship.

Secondly, I think you are abusing the word "privileged". In my opionion, Michael Bloomberg or Donald Trump's offspring can be considered as being privileged, I am just a regular person trying to survive.

Now THAT's an interesting point, Lemarseillais -- Where DOES privilege start?

My students pay $30,000 a year to go to school, have since they were in pre-k, and most of them consider themselves to be middle class. Not rich. I would say they're privileged. Then again, they probably know the Trumps, and know what REAL money looks like.

I almost got beat up for wearing a Brooklyn College jacket once because a bunch of kids thought I was showing off my cash and abilities (my dad went there, so I wear it with pride). Little did they know that I actually went to an IVY League school. So they thought paying $3,000 a year for school was privileged and hated me for it, when I paid $19,000 (thanks to sallie mae). But I didn't consider myself privileged. I have to work for a living or I will starve.

I know a guy who didn't deposit his paycheck for three months and was still able to survive, and he doesn't consider himself even upper middle class.

That fact of the matter is simply this of course no one wants crime in their neighborhood but it's everywhere and you have to deal with it one way or another. Everybody in this forum is on this "not in my neighborhood" mentality and would rather it be in somebody else's problem rather than their own. There was a time when the good of the neighborhood was able to talk to and deal with the bad of the neighborhood and come to a consensus or understanding of how they can go about their business and co-exist. There was a time when even the bad element of the neighborhood policed the neighborhood better than our own men in blue, but that was when a neighborhood was a neighborhood not a group of different individuals living in the same area. I think that the issue in this whole thing is that we are living in a neighborhood not a community, everybody is concerned about their own personal interest and not the group as a whole. If one actually bothered to see the other person in their shoes maybe we wouldn't be posting up our frustrations on the internet. We would be actually going out and doing something about it.

dreaddj wrote: Everybody in this forum is on this "not in my neighborhood" mentality and would rather it be in somebody else's problem rather than their own.

Not true. I was arguing parts of your point, too. And there were others.

There were actually quite a few Irish people who were brought here as indentured servants, which are like slaves, except that they were only slaves for a certain number of years.

In some parts of the caribbean, Irish people were actual slaves:

http://www.kavanaghfamily.com/articles/2003/20030618jfc.htm

"White" means a very specific thing now, but back in the time of the civil war, blacks and Irish were actually considered to be exactly the same. Ultimately, Irish came to be considered white, but that is a relatively recent phenomenon in the history of America.

For more information, google "Irish", "slaves", and "America."

I shouldn't jump in, this thread is already driving my blood pressure way up...but I have to now...

As nicely as possible, dinkyla and dreaddj, I disagree in the strongest possible terms with a lot of what you said. Forgive me beforehand for not tracking down and quoting each individual point y'all put out and addressing in turn, but as succinctly as possible...

1) The drug dealers were her 1st - Who cares? The criminals and their ilk shouldn't have been here 30 years ago when the nabe was ignored and forgotten and they shouldn't be here now. If they did in some capacity act as nabe watchmen and police (which I don't believe for an instant) that was symptomatic of the city's failing to provide adequate services and protection to its citizen. If a bunch of criminals take over that function or claim to...it’s just a BS rationalization and cover for them to be able to make the nabe a noticeably worst place for its law-abiding citizens (who are far and away the majority of every poor nabe.)

2) Drug dealers and criminals as accepted/integral part of nabe - Wrong. There's nothing honest poor and working class people hate more than the local criminal. They're leeches and menaces and offenses to everything the true working man and woman holds dear. The poor and the working class know damn well better than anyone how the cards are stacked against them. But the realization of how hard things are drive them to strive to make things better for themselves and their families. It doesn't make them quit honest society and say "screw it things are tough, me and all my future generations, we're all drug dealers now!"

3) Lemarseilles being some sort of superman for working hard to get ahead in life - Also wrong. His/her efforts were commendable and congrats for coming so far, but the lesson to be learned here shouldn't be that lemarseilles is some sort of genius, driven freak of nature (although he/she may very well be one). Hard work and determination are not solely the province(sic??) of the wealthy and the self-possessed. Everyone, regardless of class or race should subscribe to that ethic. To argue or excuse otherwise smacks of the worst sort of patronizing and infantilization. Saying that they don't know any better and can't be bothered to learn any different is basically writing off and condemning the fallen poor to an eternal underclass.

There were other comments that angered up my blood, but I’ve been typing forever now. Short anecdote... when I moved to CH eight years ago with my wife and my mom, my mom a religious woman was thrilled to find out that St Theresa's had a Spanish mass and a good sized Spanish assembly. She joined a church group that meets every Wed. evening. Her new friends, all of whom have lived in the nabe for 30yrs minimum, warned her of the dangers of walking along Franklin to and from church. Why? Because of the dealers and the violence that was associated with them. Neighbors on our block told her to be careful. My mother and I are black Latinos, our neighbors black and Hispanic all. Yet these same people of color, who had lived here for all their lives and knew the nabe, better than most, were warning my mother to be careful.

And it was the same story when we lived in East New York and Bushwick. And when my mom lived in Washington Heights for a few years. Watch out for the dealers and the hoods.

They're not your friends. They don't have your best interest in heart. Walk up to a bunch of dealers who are earning good bank on a particular corner and tell them that you don't appreciate their being there and that you want them to move on. And then tell them that you'll call the cops. Let’s see how friendly and community minded they are then.

Okay, I do hate the gross bodega so, point taken. Those guys are nice (sometimes) but sometimes they seem a little shady with the activity on that corner. They don't own the building and that is the start of the problem. However, are you suggesting NOT calling the police for illegal activity close to their home? The local businesses disagree with that. Go talk to the owners and ask their opinion about the drug dealers and thugs in the area they have had to tolerate for years.

Hopefully I'm using the tags correctly.

Anyway, that's not what I was suggesting. Anyone who feels unsafe or uncomfortable with the situation should definitely call the cops, and I agree that the trade brings all sorts of unpleasant side-effects, so I think we're mostly in agreement. My point is just that I don't think a single raid by the cops is going to have much effect over the long- (or even the medium-) term.

Not to be too nit-picky, but ...

animals generally don't throw bottles. To say that someone was rioting like an animal by throwing bottles is ridiculous unless you specify which animal (chimps, for instance).

Also, if a girl ran into the side of your car and dies, you should still stop, unless you are a child yourself or you hate the child. No matter what the reason for the death is.

Do you disagree? If so, please explain why, because I don't understand.

Ok. I seem to remember that the man in question was able to hold up in an apartment building lobby w/help from a bystandered and wait until the police showed up? A resident from that block had to have helped him into a locked building to keep out the mob! So, not 100% of the block residents are "animals".

There is a LONG history of antagonism between these two groups of people. So, if they acted out of line it leads me to wonder if the same treatment wouldn't have been meated out in the opposing neighborhood?
People tend to get VERY upset when a child is hurt!!! Don't tell me that you wouldn't do what you have to to stop a van from driving off from the scene of a crime, especially when it is obvious from the people screaming in your rear view mirror that they have hit a child!
Streat justice can be brutal, but often so is the crime that triggered the streat justice. It's not right, but when police take their sweet time showing up, people feel forced to take action, right or wrong!