MERGED TOPIC: Race is almost never relevant (perp or not)?

oh and I would absolutely include the "perps" race if I knew it.

If I saw a Black guy mug someone?...I'm gonna say the mugger was a black guy, or Chinese or whatever he was, don't matter.

Race is not as relevant as socio-economics or a little package I call C.S.I.: "Cultural/ Socio-economic Indicators"

Someone smarter can develop a chart/ graph with numbers or something: age, income, education level, number of children...all are more important factors than "race" alone. If someone's CSI index number can then be used to describe them instead of race - like an SAT score or GPA for college admissions.

Except race is also a factor for that sometimes too...sigh.

Sunset Pete: You make an interesting point. Just last night, I was parking my car and a white guy (longish hair, backpack, teva-like sandals) was walking down St. Johns place. I was parking my car, drinking a cup of coffee, and sigh...talking on my cell phone. The point is, he was staring at me and it pissed me off. It pissed me off to the point that I mouthed, "What are you F looking at???" and managed to make some type of hand gesture to him. Now, to be honest, I'm not sure what he was looking at, but as a black woman, it made me very uncomfortable to have a white man staring at me for no apparent reason. For me, it became racial.

RBG, as a white man living on St. Johns and Nostrand, I know _exactly_ what you are talking about. Most people around there are not so small minded. I was actually kind of worried when I moved there. Now, on the occasions when that sort of nonsense happens, I smile and look away. There really isn't much point in worrying about other's prejudices in such a situation. Hopefully their mind will open up at some point. The _vast_ majority of people I run into are _very_ friendly and helpful, and although they note my whiteness against their blackness, they do not hold it against me. Although they often seem to assume that I have _no idea_ of how to shop or pick vegetables properly. Unfortunately, they are often right! I've saved a lot of coin and gotten some of the freshest veggies by making sure I listen to their helpful tips.

RBG: I'm just guessing here, but if the guy *was* staring with the intention of making you feel judged / uncomfortable, he was probably focused on your cell-phone conversation. Hard to believe, but there are still some people out there who seem to be morally (aesthetically?) offended by cell-phones. I'm betting that that guy stares at everyone, regardless of race, gender, what-have-you, who dares to talk above a whisper on his/her cell. You can cheer yourself with the thought that the dude is fighting a losing battle!

RBG wrote: An addendum; Had the man who was staring been black, I would have assumed he was flirting with me or liked my car. When a white person stares, I assume he/she is making judgements about me based on outside appearances, whether it be the color of my skin or the kind of bag I'm carrying.

I'm going to state right off the bat due to the sensitive nature of this topic that if you could hear my tone, you would hear that I'm talking to you and not jumping down your throat...

In this case though, you don't know what that guy was thinking, it's you that made all the judgments, it's you that made it racial. It was all in your head.

That being said, when you do interact with a person, how much of your reaction is based on what that person is actually doing/saying to you and how much of it is based on your fears and negative expectations? Doesn't your reaction get you your expected outcome?

So much of racial misunderstanding seems to be about perceptions and expectations and not about the actual interaction.

when I see an old white guy who is socialy akward I normally think he is a pedifile.

Let me be clear. The racism that I've experienced in the neighborhood is is not overt. Its subtle. Its the way people take their dogs across the street when my little dog is barking too loud. Its the look that says, "Don't you know how to train your dog?" Its the stares and strange looks that give me pause. The same person who acknowledges me when I'm wearing skinny jeans and stilettos will ignore me when I'm wearing my hair tied up in a scarf with a sweatsuit and sneakers. Looking llike you're from the hood somehow makes you invisible. Sometimes, I think they believe that black folks living in the 'hood are supposed to dress, speak, act, walk, talk, or simply behave a certain way. When white people in the 'hood see black people who don't fit certain stereotypical molds, they often act surprised. In SF, because there's such a small (almost non-existant) black middleclass, white people act really strange towards blacks who don't fit into their preconceived notions of what a black person is supposed to be. If an African-American isn't a crackhead, prostitute, or homeless, many of the white people I've encountered seem confused. Its like we're some strange, odd hyrbid breed of black folk...To me, this behavior is beyond strange, its racist.

I'm with you, doublediamond.

greg, exactly.

This thread is going to turn into a love fest very soon. :-) Group hug!!!

sprite wrote: This may be true, but RBG didn't come out of the womb with these assumptions. I have to assume she's had a number of bad experiences in which people made it clear they were judging her that way. And that really sucks.

Along the line with what others have mentioned, doublediamond very eloquently in her last post, I'm more inclined to believe that reactions such as RBG's, which she has aknowledged as being unfair (thanks for sharing by the way RBG), are the result of what one brings to the table, rather than a "number of bad experiences".

I'm very aware of how much casual and virulent racism I heard from loved ones and community members about blacks, whites, jews, etc whilst growing up. None of these people actually lived near us by the way.

Lucky enough that none of it really stuck so that by the time I actually started interacting with these people (high school years) I didn't bring too much negative crap with me ( I hope).

Subject: Re: How?

Savethecity wrote: Doublediamond,

How does one do what you say? There is racism everywhere and it guides us in everything we do. It's in our tv commercials, innocent-seeming statements we make about beauty standards, it's everywhere. How do we carve an identity outside of what we know, outside of what's ingrained.

Well, like Greg posted, in some cases, being exposed to those you racially stereotype changes ones belief. Being around a variety of human beings can make a person realize that we're all human and race not as meaningful as other things.

For me, growing up around family that exchanged both overt and subtle racism and paradoxically an inclusive liberal worldview (ah, the contradictions of my family), it is a matter of awareness. I didn't subscribe to my grandparents racial beliefs because it conflicted with my experiences with others and it was clear to me that it was outdated. Racism is taught, we're not born with it, so I paid attention.

I would say that overt stuff is easier to overcome because it's so ridiculous. It's been socially seen as ridiculous by the mainstream media my entire life, from 1970s to now. Children shows such as Sesame Street and The Electric Company wove in inclusiveness and racial harmony into their programming. A lot of us grew up with these messages in the home and outside of it.

The more subtle stuff, like beauty standards, gender issues, cultural images, ideas of safety and masculinity is harder to fight. It requires exposing the racism, education (formally and informally) a degree of self-awareness, being a critical thinker when exposed to the media, and interacting with individuals with a wide variety of experience. People accomplish this in their lives to varying degrees.

Subtle forms of racism require vigilance because we are overexposed to media images and messaging. So much of what we think of other races (and gender and sexuality) are being forced upon us by the media (TV shows, music and music videos, advertisements) instead of being drawn from individual interactions. We have to challenge what is being sold and to us about each other, because it's all a lie (and a lie perpetuated for profit).

So, a person has to be on top of it. They have to question, and they have to do their best to treat people as individuals. Whites in particular, white men even more so, need more awareness that even if they are not actively practicing racism, they have and are given privilege over others because of their race and gender. Is that necessarily the fault of an individual white male who is a nice person treating others fairly and not stereotyping others? Absolutely not, but being aware of it, exposing and challenging that privilege makes a huge difference in trying to change the larger American culture.

OK, haven't chimed in but doublediamond's comment has struck a nerve.

Whites in particular, white men even more so, need more awareness that even if they are not actively practicing racism, they have and are given privilege over others because of their race and gender. Is that necessarily the fault of an individual white male who is a nice person treating others fairly and not stereotyping others?

While we can agree to disagree, I call "shenanigans" on this comment. Sick and tired of hearing the "privilege of white males" and their need for diligence in respecting other races, cultures and women in particular.

Done to death. And in my book, 90% not true, at least not amoung the white males I know. I see far more of a sense of entitlement (conscious or not) and stereotyping coming from Latino, African American and Chinese friends of ours.

now for that other 10% I mentioned, I cannot vouch for those with bad karma in the human race. they will exist regardless of race or creed.

I have always lived in an ethnically diverse 'nabes, chosen them specifically for the diversity of culture, race, class and sheat, just 'cos we find darn nice folks as neighbors.

Keep up the great dialog. And let's not shoot from the hip when y'all come after me

lostingreenwoodhts wrote: OK, haven't chimed in but doublediamond's comment has struck a nerve.

Whites in particular, white men even more so, need more awareness that even if they are not actively practicing racism, they have and are given privilege over others because of their race and gender. Is that necessarily the fault of an individual white male who is a nice person treating others fairly and not stereotyping others?

While we can agree to disagree, I call "shenanigans" on this comment. Sick and tired of hearing the "privilege of white males" and their need for diligence in respecting other races, cultures and women in particular.

Done to death. And in my book, 90% not true, at least not amoung the white males I know. I see far more of a sense of entitlement (conscious or not) and stereotyping coming from Latino, African American and Chinese friends of ours.

now for that other 10% I mentioned, I cannot vouch for those with bad karma in the human race. they will exist regardless of race or creed.

I have always lived in an ethnically diverse 'nabes, chosen them specifically for the diversity of culture, race, class and sheat, just 'cos we find darn nice folks as neighbors.

Keep up the great dialog. And let's not shoot from the hip when y'all come after me

Like I said in my post, an individual can be kind, not practice any active racism, but because of gender and race, this person has a level of privilege not afforded to others. I'm not talking about a sense of entitlement, nor am I advocating or suggesting white male guilt. I'm addressing that on a cultural level this needs to be acknowledged and challenged. Just because a white guy is nice and not personally racist doesn't mean that he should not acknowledge what he's got based on his race, even if didn't request the privilege or consciously acted upon it to receive it.

What do I mean on a social level acknowledging white male privilege? Fighting for affirmative action. I don't think that as a country we need to be abandoning this just yet. Fighting for school desegregation. This is still an issue. Fighting to ensure that all schools get equal funding. Some examples.

Ok, I sound like a 70s liberal.