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NYTimes Select (paid) Content on the way out! - Page 2 — Brooklynian

NYTimes Select (paid) Content on the way out!

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  • SevenOneEighty wrote: Frankly, I can only listen to people bash America for so long before I get bored.
    me too. that's part of why i hate conservative talk shows and radio and newspapers. because the stuff they rail against is "america", too.

    i'm gay -- i'm american
    non-christian people -- they're american
    people who oppose the war -- american
    people on welfare -- american
    feminists -- american
    democrats -- american

    i could go on, but you get the point.

    the thing that i can't stand on the liberal side, just for a little balance in this post, is the habit of contemptuously dismissing people they see as favored by the other side -- people from "red states" (speaking of harmful new habits of speech -- we all know all the states are basically purple, right? electoral votes are dumb.) and church-goers come to mind. i may be especially tender on this point since i grew up among a lot of southern, church-going democrats. i know what pride feels like, and sometimes the things that are said by my political allies about my people make me want to switch sides.

    this is every bit as short-sided as republicans writing off union members was. it will haunt the party for a long time if we don't get it together.

    image
  • All good points above. Especially the ones about people turning on Bush, etc. It is true we have some major screw ups to fix now.

    I actually feel sorry for the next president, because they are inheriting a really terrible world situation...I know Bush is going to hold on in Iraq until his term is up and let the next person to take the helm deal with it. If Hillary wins and she withdrawals troops, and then if chaos ensues in Iraq, she will go down in history in a BAD way... it sucks to make it a political argument, but I know that is what will happen. I am betting there will still be 130K +/- troops in Iraq in November 2008.

    And let's not kid ourselves, we definitely went for the oil (we can argue about the pre-war intel., but its not worth it and doesn't matter - it was all bunk) We love the stuff and can't get enough of it. It's in all of our cars and plastic for our ipods and PCs, and we will not stop using it until it runs out.

    I hate to say it, but we are NEVER leaving Iraq...Korea, Germany, Japan or any other place we go. I hope everyone understands that. I'm not trying to be cynical, but I really think that is the case.
    - Glenn Beck
    - Pat Buchanan
    - Tucker Carlson

    and yes, Joe Scarborough.
    Yes, that's 4 political opinions vs......it's a good start though.
    'My bad' on Joe Scarborough (he considers himself a moderate though)

    But regarding bias in reporting.
    But there is no way to report news without bias. No matter how professional someone is, their personal bias is going to affect their perception of the story and how they report it, and it's not always done consciously. I'm saying it's better to be truthful about your bias rather than pretend that a bias doesn't exist.
    I'm not so sure...I definitely think you can do somethings to curb it a little better.its like wearing a seatbelt to prevent injury in an accident. For example (I listed some of these above also, but here they are again):

    1. Have people in your newsroom from different backgrounds, educational levels, and parts of the country, have religious people and atheists as well. Allow them to have input and review of stories also. Allow them to write an editorial also.....you can never be perfect, but you have to start.

    Don't we have laws in this country that for years fought discrimination and sexism...it didn't end it, but they help curb certain behaviors...I'm just saying.

    2. Hire OUTSIDE of your normal pool of colleges and universities (i.e., NE Liberal universities, or middle American conservative universities). Allow those people to write, review and have input on stories being covered along with everyone else.

    3. Have all questions to people being interviewed have a subject, predicate and end with question marks....(Tim Russert is very good at this and I like him and his style of interviewing. Some people I won't name, are not).

    4. Make a point to have military and ex-military personal on staff as writers and editors. All people writing on current conflicts, must have experience IN those specific theaters of battle.Period.

    5. Stop depending on the newswires to run stories; Believe your own staff's eyes and ears when they witness a situation. Stop repeating newswires word for word in all publications.

    6. Have a part of the staff be responsible for "opinion review" of stories. Stories about cooking, theater and sports,etc. should not have political opinion in them -unless it is somehow related to the story. Their must be some wiggle room on this of course, but we're smart people and can figure it out.

    7. Realize that America is NOT the only country on the planet with screwed up leaders who take advantage of their people and hold ALL accountable.
    That you hold a shared opinion of a leader that hates Bush, doesn't make that leader a friend of yours...

    ---------------------------------
    Hey, would we be complaining about the electoral college if Gore or Kerry won? Really. That is a good map and I have even used it before to show it is not just straight blue and red.

    But what it shows is Bush won, much to the surprise of many people in this region. More people still voted for him in the popular vote. I didn't vote for him and I was just as surprised given the press around here.

    The democrats need a strong solid message(s). The 'right' is very good at staying "on point" but the democrats meander and go tangential too much. I know that is the way of the world, but people need clarity. I think when you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one. Democrats really need to get back to basics and leave the fringe/ special interest stuff out.
    They have to stop rooting for America to "lose/fail" (at whatever) in order to be successful. That is a bad reactionary position to be in and unfortunately, some people have made a career out of wanting America to fail at everything.

    If there is a terrorist attack between now and the election, a Republican will win. That is an unfortunate truth: we always go back to our primal instincts when confronted with survival or in fear.
  • SevenOneEighty wrote:

    ---------------------------------
    Hey, would we be complaining about the electoral college if Gore or Kerry won? Really.
    Hey, I grew up in a liberal town in a state that tends to go republican in presidential elections*. I've been complaining about the electoral college since i was a 9 year old painting my own campaign signs on the backs of shirt boxes, thank you very much. it's a lousy system, and a national press takes care of most of what it was designed to address.


    * but my state also tends to have a dem gov and one senator from each party -- another example of how the whole red state/blue state thing is a stupid oversimplification.
  • The problem is that newspapers simply do not hire people who don't graduate from college with a 4-year degree in English and/or journalism. So you get a pretty homogenous self-selected group. I would submit that journalists are probably *less* liberal than before because in prior generations, journalists tended to come from the working classes and have that class bias. Nowadays, most journalists come from the middle-to-upper classes because only they can afford to go to college nowadays. Also many journalists today grew up under Reagan and have the neoconservative bias of many of my generation. You wouldn't have had a Bill O'Reilly or Joe Scarborough on television 30 years ago. They would have been dismissed as troglodytes.

    For your recommendations that the media rely less on news services and more on actual reportage, well, this is why journalism is a dying art. It's a corporate cost-cutting measure that has been going on for a couple of decades and with the continuing consolidation of the media, isn't going to change at all for the unforeseeable future.

    The reason why there is so little foreign coverage is because foreign news bureaus have been closed over the years.

    The *last* thing the corporate media wants would be ex-military writing in their pages, because ex-military are frequently the most vociferous critics of war policy. Have you noticed that the media functions mostly as a cheerleader in war coverage and a government propaganda station rather than a questioning critic? I'm not saying that to criticize is always to be right, but criticism is NECESSARY. It is because of the current administration's lack of tolerance of criticism that they have no concept of reality. And this is having disasterous consequences.

    The reason why media is in such a sad state is because of corporate control. And then they dare to pretend that there is no bias.

    I submit that it is IMPOSSIBLE to report without bias. Let's say there was, say, a fistfight that happened on your block that ten of your neighbors witness. Every single one of them will have a different version of events based on their past and present perceptions. It's not wrong; it's just human nature.

    I say that for far more honest journalism, require people to state their bias up front.
  • SevenOneEighty wrote: Hey, would we be complaining about the electoral college if Gore or Kerry won?
    I can't tell you how much fun my foreign friends had at my expense after the 2000 elections: "So, the candidate that the majority of people vote for can still lose? Great system you guys have..."
    SevenOneEighty wrote: But what it shows is Bush won, much to the surprise of many people in this region. More people still voted for him in the popular vote. I didn't vote for him and I was just as surprised given the press around here.
    With a country this divided--and despite a lousy candidate running against him--I'm not surprised Bush won 51%-49%. A landslide Bush victory would've been surprising but not the eventual outcome. A lot of people in this area were desperately hoping Kerry could defeat Bush, but no one could've seriously thought it was a done deal.
    SevenOneEighty wrote: Democrats...really need to get back to basics and leave the fringe/special interest stuff out. They have to stop rooting for America to "lose/fail" (at whatever) in order to be successful. That is a bad reactionary position to be in and unfortunately, some people have made a career out of wanting America to fail at everything.
    Excuse me, but "rooting for America to lose/fail" sounds like an incredible oversimplification and demonization of the Democratic party by the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. Does anyone truthfully, deep down think Democrats want their country to have even more dead soldiers in Iraq, half of its citizens without healthcare, soaring unemployment, a devalued currency, and the contempt of the rest of the world? Please. If people truly believed that, the Dems would have less followers than the Libertarian Party! That's exactly what I was talking about in a prior post, the kind of propaganda spewed by irresponsible conservatives every day, that ends up becoming "fact": "Those godless, ivy league, Volvo-driving, NYT-reading demons just want to make your boys gay, your girls have abortions every other month, and turn this country over to France."

    What the Dems need to do is get their message across. Crazy as it sounds, they need to convince people that the lack of healthcare for all, the belittling of science and education, the corporate plundering of retirement funds, dilapidated military hospitals, the capricious suspension of our civil liberties etc etc etc are all VERY BAD THINGS. And that those who support these things are NOT ON YOUR SIDE, no matter how many flags they wear on their lapels or how many times they invoke God in their speeches. But the Dems have their work cut out for them: if Republicans could convince the masses that the scion of a Northeastern political dynasty was actually a down-home, good ole boy, political outsider from Texas, then formidable oponent is quite the understatement.
  • Well, it didn't help that he had the Supreme Court on his side, too, preemptively ending the recount.

    Oh, and *cough* Diebold *cough*
  • Excuse me, but "rooting for America to lose/fail" sounds like an incredible oversimplification and demonization of the Democratic party by the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. Does anyone truthfully, deep down think Democrats want their country to have even more dead soldiers in Iraq, half of its citizens without healthcare, soaring unemployment, a devalued currency, and the contempt of the rest of the world? Please. If people truly believed that, the Dems would have less followers than the Libertarian Party! That's exactly what I was talking about in a prior post, the kind of propaganda spewed by irresponsible conservatives every day, that ends up becoming "fact": "Those godless, ivy league, Volvo-driving, NYT-reading demons just want to make your boys gay, your girls have abortions every other month, and turn this country over to France."

    Okay, Long rant:

    Yes, an oversimplification but I must say, I am personally feeling that some days - especially when I tried listening to Air America or some editorials or Hollywood. Hey, give me some credit - Sean Hannity? I think some people don't even realize what they are doing. But there is a "blame America first" crowd out there. There are many reasons, but some have made a career out of it.

    I truly believe there is an underlying element of people - American and non-American- who want America ( as a concept and/or country) to fail.
    I can write an in depth analysis of this in several chapters, but will stick to the basic premises. But to answer your question: YES, these people do exist, their behavior is completely ironic sometimes because many times it comes from successful people with a platform - people who are successful because of an American system, mind you.

    Now this is NOT some mantra about never criticizing your country; the USA has many faults and should be criticized and questioned. What I sometimes question are the methods and agendas of the groups/ people/ organizations. There is a type of thinking that seems to be against the US. here are a few examples off the top of my head.

    1. The USA is the root of all evil and suffering in the world. No other world leaders are responsible for the suffering, and will get a pass when interviewed or discussed.

    2. If something happens to the US, it is the fault of the US via it's global policies - always.

    3. If something happens to the US or it's citizens, it was a conspiracy by the US government for an agenda...(we've covered this one).

    4. Report ALL failures or perceived failures of US policy but NEVER tell ANY success story or downplay it as much as possible. ( i.e., talk about the explosions at a market without context, don't mention it is other Iraqis/muslins killing each other, ignore that number of girls schools and reconstruction - NEVER mention it). I think the war -all war-sucks, but the coverage is really terrible and incomplete: lazy press with an agenda.

    5. Always portray American military as evil, killing, raping machines duped in to military service because of their low i.q. (calling Brian DePalma) and play up to foreign governments and press for movie awards.

    6. Play up to, admire and worship any know enemy to the US (Holocaust deniers and funders of terrorism are best) and invite them to speak in your neighborhood. As long as they hate Bush as much as you do, that's all that matters (Castro, Chavez, Ahmadinejad are great candidates). It doesn't matter what their domestic record is - America's is obviously worse and treats its people terribly.

    6a. NEVER let a conservative or republican speak in the same venue - if they try - SHOUT THEM DOWN (Columbia University); they don't deserve to speak. (it is usually liberals that do the shouting down on college campuses, preventing people form speaking). I don't think anyone should be banned, but give all a chance to speak in the name of academia...if that is the true purposes...but if it isn't....

    7. Support illegal activity that undermines the safety and security of the country (encourage ILLEGAL immigration, speaking English, etc...). If anyone has an issue, label them a racist and end the conversation quickly.
    Even if the persons has a reasonable argument, change the subject.

    8. Use bad behavior to justify other bad behavior.

    9. There is no right and no wrong; Just different (and misunderstood). We have no right to make any judgments ever. Unless it's America involved and America is always wrong.

    10. Foreign press is always correct in their perception of America - especially when they are against America. ( when was the last time an American publication was critical of France's immigration policy?)

    All of there are oversimplifications, but I am sure you recognize some of these traits in media, Hollywood and maybe people you know. Surely you recognize some of this behavior. As I said, America has had some bad policies and has done some terrible things, but why does everyone else in the world get a pass (middle eastern royal families, foreign dictators who steal foreign aid while their people starve, genocides, corrupt-ass Mexico, etc.)

    At some point, we do have to come together as a nation and give our nation some credit. I am not sure we want to live in a world where America is NOT powerful and strong. I do believe there is enough to go around for everyone and some US policies must change for that to happen- but so do the policies of other nations, dictators and governments too. You may think those examples are far-fetched are wrong, but they are just my personal assessments.
  • SevenOneEighty wrote:
    4. Report ALL failures or perceived failures of US policy but NEVER tell ANY success story or downplay it as much as possible. ( i.e., talk about the explosions at a market without context, don't mention it is other Iraqis/muslins killing each other, ignore that number of girls schools and reconstruction - NEVER mention it). I think the war -all war-sucks, but the coverage is really terrible and incomplete: lazy press with an agenda.
    wait, i've heard stories like this. so NEVER is not true.
    SevenOneEighty wrote:

    5. Always portray American military as evil, killing, raping machines duped in to military service because of their low i.q. (calling Brian DePalma) and play up to foreign governments and press for movie awards.
    ditto this. not to mention that it's our precious little administration who would rather have us think that soldiers involved in bad things (like abu gharaib or slaughtering their wives on return home) are just crazy loose cannons rather than people who have been broken by some very bad things coming from higher up the chain of command.
    SevenOneEighty wrote:
    6. Play up to, admire and worship any know enemy to the US (Holocaust deniers and funders of terrorism are best) and invite them to speak in your neighborhood. As long as they hate Bush as much as you do, that's all that matters (Castro, Chavez, Ahmadinejad are great candidates). It doesn't matter what their domestic record is - America's is obviously worse and treats its people terribly.

    6a. NEVER let a conservative or republican speak in the same venue - if they try - SHOUT THEM DOWN (Columbia University); they don't deserve to speak. (it is usually liberals that do the shouting down on college campuses, preventing people form speaking). I don't think anyone should be banned, but give all a chance to speak in the name of academia...if that is the true purposes...but if it isn't....
    i assume you're talking about the minutemen guy, in which case, this is apples and oranges. columbia's ADMINISTRATION invited both ahmadinejad and the minuteman; the STUDENTS shouted down the latter. incidentally, i believe the ADMINISTRATION has invited him back, because they think he shouldn't have been shouted down. also, if you heard columbia's prez talking on npr about why to invite ahmadinejad, you'd know that it's not a question of admiration or even agreement.
    SevenOneEighty wrote:
    7. Support illegal activity that undermines the safety and security of the country (encourage ILLEGAL immigration, speaking English, etc...). If anyone has an issue, label them a racist and end the conversation quickly.
    Even if the persons has a reasonable argument, change the subject.
    i'm not at all clear about what english-speaking has to do with security.
    SevenOneEighty wrote:
    10. Foreign press is always correct in their perception of America - especially when they are against America. ( when was the last time an American publication was critical of France's immigration policy?)
    um, i've read lots that is critical of it. and i pretty much only read american pubs. the guest worker policy has been raked over the coals, esp after the riots. but the US is not the only country in the world, and it is important to know how other countries perceive us.
    SevenOneEighty wrote:
    As I said, America has had some bad policies and has done some terrible things, but why does everyone else in the world get a pass (middle eastern royal families, foreign dictators who steal foreign aid while their people starve, genocides, corrupt-ass Mexico, etc.)
    i think the liberals are the only ones beginning to question giving the saudi royal family a free pass -- you know, the guys who really did have a lot of responsibility for 9-11, the guys who think women shouldn't drive/vote/exist, the ones who think it's better to let girls BURN ALIVE than to unlock the gate of their fucking school and let them risk being seen without their veils but who let us have our bases on their land (all of this in contrast with iraq, which had nothing to do with 911, had a secular (if troubled) government and comparative equality for women).
  • SevenOneEighty wrote: [quote=pitu][quote=SevenOneEighty, lover of foxes]The NY Times gave a "family and friends" discount to Moveon.org (snip)
    The MoveOn ad was on a Monday -- much lower ad revenue/ad load day. Guiliani wanted the rate on a Friday, their big ad day along with Sunday.
    :roll:
    "Liberals" have never gotten a particular break from the NYT in terms of ad sales. They don't give away anything over there (except for TimesSelect, of course. ha.)

    Not true at all- Nope. That is straight spin there, I'm afraid.

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/09132007/news/nationalnews/times_gives_lefties_a_hefty_di.htm

    According to Abbe Serphos, director of public relations for the Times, "the open rate for an ad of that size and type is $181,692."

    A spokesman for MoveOn.org confirmed to The Post that the liberal activist group had paid only $65,000 for the ad - a reduction of more than $116,000 from the stated rate.

    A Post reporter who called the Times advertising department yesterday without identifying himself was quoted a price of $167,000 for a full-page black-and-white ad on a Monday
    Now it is the NYPost - but it is true....

    ack
    too much long ranting for reading
    so I'll just duck in to point out that you're ignoring some of the basic facts by slipping around with the eels at the Post
    1. rates for "it'll run whenever we don't have someone else willing to pay more" are lower than "a firm deal, it'll run on Monday"
    2. rates for different days are different
    that's not spin - just info about how ad buys work

    it's not that much different from how hotels book rooms -- rack rate, package deals, early in the week is cheaper, if you are willing to take any date/location they give you it's cheaper ETC
  • pitu wrote: [quote=SevenOneEighty][quote=pitu][quote=SevenOneEighty, lover of foxes]The NY Times gave a "family and friends" discount to Moveon.org (snip)
    The MoveOn ad was on a Monday -- much lower ad revenue/ad load day. Guiliani wanted the rate on a Friday, their big ad day along with Sunday.
    :roll:
    "Liberals" have never gotten a particular break from the NYT in terms of ad sales. They don't give away anything over there (except for TimesSelect, of course. ha.)

    Not true at all- Nope. That is straight spin there, I'm afraid.

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/09132007/news/nationalnews/times_gives_lefties_a_hefty_di.htm



    According to Abbe Serphos, director of public relations for the Times, "the open rate for an ad of that size and type is $181,692."

    A spokesman for MoveOn.org confirmed to The Post that the liberal activist group had paid only $65,000 for the ad - a reduction of more than $116,000 from the stated rate.

    A Post reporter who called the Times advertising department yesterday without identifying himself was quoted a price of $167,000 for a full-page black-and-white ad on a Monday
    Now it is the NYPost - but it is true....

    ack
    too much long ranting for reading
    so I'll just duck in to point out that you're ignoring some of the basic facts by slipping around with the eels at the Post
    1. rates for "it'll run whenever we don't have someone else willing to pay more" are lower than "a firm deal, it'll run on Monday"
    2. rates for different days are different
    that's not spin - just info about how ad buys work

    it's not that much different from how hotels book rooms -- rack rate, package deals, early in the week is cheaper, if you are willing to take any date/location they give you it's cheaper ETC

    hey, no ranting...
    but this came out today, straight from the horses mouth...so to speak, i think they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/23/opinion/23pubed.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
    The Public Editor
    Betraying Its Own Best Interests

    Article Tools Sponsored By
    By CLARK HOYT
    Published: September 23, 2007

    FOR nearly two weeks, The New York Times has been defending a political advertisement that critics say was an unfair shot at the American commander in Iraq.


    But I think the ad violated The Times’s own written standards, and the paper now says that the advertiser got a price break it was not entitled to.

    On Monday, Sept. 10, the day that Gen. David H. Petraeus came before Congress to warn against a rapid withdrawal of troops, The Times carried a full-page ad attacking his truthfulness.

    Under the provocative headline “General Petraeus or General Betray Us?” the ad, purchased by the liberal activist group MoveOn.org, charged that the highly decorated Petraeus was “constantly at war with the facts” in giving upbeat assessments of progress and refusing to acknowledge that Iraq is “mired in an unwinnable religious civil war.”

    “Today, before Congress and before the American people, General Petraeus is likely to become General Betray Us,” MoveOn.org declared.

    The ad infuriated conservatives, dismayed many Democrats and ignited charges that the liberal Times aided its friends at MoveOn.org with a steep discount in the price paid to publish its message, which might amount to an illegal contribution to a political action committee. In more than 4,000 e-mail messages, people around the country raged at The Times with words like “despicable,” “disgrace” and “treason.”

    President George W. Bush called the ad “disgusting.” The Senate, controlled by Democrats, voted overwhelmingly to condemn the ad.

    Vice President Dick Cheney said the charges in the ad, “provided at subsidized rates in The New York Times” were “an outrage.” Thomas Davis III, a Republican congressman from Virginia, demanded a House investigation. The American Conservative Union filed a formal complaint with the Federal Election Commission against MoveOn.org and The New York Times Company. FreedomsWatch.org, a group recently formed to support the war, asked me to investigate because it said it wasn’t offered the same terms for a response ad that MoveOn.org got.

    Did MoveOn.org get favored treatment from The Times? And was the ad outside the bounds of acceptable political discourse?

    The answer to the first question is that MoveOn.org paid what is known in the newspaper industry as a standby rate of $64,575 that it should not have received under Times policies. The group should have paid $142,083. The Times had maintained for a week that the standby rate was appropriate, but a company spokeswoman told me late Thursday afternoon that an advertising sales representative made a mistake.

    The answer to the second question is that the ad appears to fly in the face of an internal advertising acceptability manual that says, “We do not accept opinion advertisements that are attacks of a personal nature.” Steph Jespersen, the executive who approved the ad, said that, while it was “rough,” he regarded it as a comment on a public official’s management of his office and therefore acceptable speech for The Times to print.

    By the end of last week the ad appeared to have backfired on both MoveOn.org and fellow opponents of the war in Iraq — and on The Times. It gave the Bush administration and its allies an opportunity to change the subject from questions about an unpopular war to defense of a respected general with nine rows of ribbons on his chest, including a Bronze Star with a V for valor. And it gave fresh ammunition to a cottage industry that loves to bash The Times as a bastion of the “liberal media.”

    How did this happen?

    Eli Pariser, the executive director of MoveOn.org, told me that his group called The Times on the Friday before Petraeus’s appearance on Capitol Hill and asked for a rush ad in Monday’s paper. He said The Times called back and “told us there was room Monday, and it would cost $65,000.” Pariser said there was no discussion about a standby rate. “We paid this rate before, so we recognized it,” he said. Advertisers who get standby rates aren’t guaranteed what day their ad will appear, only that it will be in the paper within seven days.

    Catherine Mathis, vice president of corporate communications for The Times, said, “We made a mistake.” She said the advertising representative failed to make it clear that for that rate The Times could not guarantee the Monday placement but left MoveOn.org with the understanding that the ad would run then. She added, “That was contrary to our policies.”

    Arthur Sulzberger Jr., the publisher of The Times and chairman of its parent company, declined to name the salesperson or to say whether disciplinary action would be taken.

    Jespersen, director of advertising acceptability, reviewed the ad and approved it. He said the question mark after the headline figured in his decision.

    The Times bends over backward to accommodate advocacy ads, including ads from groups with which the newspaper disagrees editorially. Jespersen has rejected an ad from the National Right to Life Committee, not, he said, because of its message but because it pictured aborted fetuses. He also rejected an ad from MoveOn.org that contained a doctored photograph of Cheney. The photo was replaced, and the ad ran.

    Sulzberger, who said he wasn’t aware of MoveOn.org’s latest ad until it appeared in the paper, said: “If we’re going to err, it’s better to err on the side of more political dialogue. ... Perhaps we did err in this case. If we did, we erred with the intent of giving greater voice to people.”

    For me, two values collided here: the right of free speech — even if it’s abusive speech — and a strong personal revulsion toward the name-calling and personal attacks that now pass for political dialogue, obscuring rather than illuminating important policy issues. For The Times, there is another value: the protection of its brand as a newspaper that sets a high standard for civility. Were I in Jespersen’s shoes, I’d have demanded changes to eliminate “Betray Us,” a particularly low blow when aimed at a soldier.

    In the fallout from the ad, Rudolph Giuliani, the former New York mayor and a Republican presidential candidate, demanded space in the following Friday’s Times to answer MoveOn.org. He got it — and at the same $64,575 rate that MoveOn.org paid.

    Bradley A. Blakeman, former deputy assistant to President Bush for appointments and scheduling and the head of FreedomsWatch.org, said his group wanted to run its own reply ad last Monday and was quoted the $64,575 rate on a standby basis. The ad wasn’t placed, he said, because the newspaper wouldn’t guarantee him the day or a position in the first section. Sulzberger said all advocacy ads normally run in the first section.

    Mathis said that since the controversy began, the newspaper’s advertising staff has been told it must adhere consistently to its pricing policies.
    The public editor serves as the readers' representative. His opinions and conclusions are his own. His column appears at least twice monthly in this section.
    I'm just saying....

    Also, if it wasn't guaranteed to be run at a specific time, wasn't it very convenient that it ran when it did? Coincidence or something else, maybe?
  • It really sounds like a clusterfuck situation, people made mistakes, not a deliberate attempt to give Moveon.org a break. Someone didn't read the manual carefully enough, and somehow that mistake wasn't caught.
  • Here's a good one:

    Before MoveOn's "General Betray Us," there was Limbaugh's "Senator Betrayus"

    "Rush Limbaugh has called the MoveOn.org 'General Petraeus or General Betray Us?' advertisement 'contemptible' and 'indecent,' but months earlier, on his radio show, he told his audience that he had a new name for Senator Chuck Hagel: 'Senator Betrayus.' Though Limbaugh has taken exception to accusations that he has attacked the patriotism of his political opponents, the "Senator Betrayus" remark is one of several instances in which Limbaugh has done so."


    No backlash over that one. Or how he confuses Barack Obama with Osama Bin Laden, who are, by the way "on the same page."

    Something tells me that if the Sept 11th tragedy had happened on Bill Clinton's watch and some short time later he'd said about Bin Laden "I just don't spend that much time on him really," Bill would've been bbq'd like a Salem "witch".
  • I think the point was that "General Betray Us" violated NYT policy.

    I think we should smear the right as much as they smear us. Some things shouldn't be tolerated. But that is separate from NYT advertisement policy. So what MoveOn.org did wasn't wrong, it was just the wrong forum for it.

    Much as we liberals don't like to fight dirty, it's necessary. It's the only reason why Chuck Schumer prevailed against Al D'Amato, because he was the only Democrat who was willing to get as lowdown and dirty as D'Amato.

    The only caveat is that should we smear, we should smear 'em with the truth. The Republican party has certainly given us more than enough ammunition.
  • lilbangladesh wrote: ...should we smear, we should smear 'em with the truth. The Republican party has certainly given us more than enough ammunition.
    Politics is a dirty business and Republicans recognize it as such. (To see John McCain and Shrub embrace after Rove and co. disseminated slanderous and race-baiting lies about McCain in the south, brought the point home clearer than ever.) I've always said, as long as you're not lying or unjustly defaming someone, go for it and do whatcha gotta do to get there. You can be the nice guy once in power.
  • lilbangladesh wrote: It really sounds like a clusterfuck situation, people made mistakes, not a deliberate attempt to give Moveon.org a break. Someone didn't read the manual carefully enough, and somehow that mistake wasn't caught.
    You're joking, right?
    Did you read that article by the editor posted above? LOL!
    Here's a good one:

    Before MoveOn's "General Betray Us," there was Limbaugh's "Senator Betrayus"

    "Rush Limbaugh has called the MoveOn.org 'General Petraeus or General Betray Us?' advertisement 'contemptible' and 'indecent,' but months earlier, on his radio show, he told his audience that he had a new name for Senator Chuck Hagel: 'Senator Betrayus.' Though Limbaugh has taken exception to accusations that he has attacked the patriotism of his political opponents, the "Senator Betrayus" remark is one of several instances in which Limbaugh has done so."

    No backlash over that one. Or how he confuses Barack Obama with Osama Bin Laden, who are, by the way "on the same page."

    Something tells me that if the Sept 11th tragedy had happened on Bill Clinton's watch and some short time later he'd said about Bin Laden "I just don't spend that much time on him really," Bill would've been bbq'd like a Salem "witch".
    Yea, Limbaugh is an idiot.

    I first became a fan of Al Franken reading his book, "Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot" - literary brilliance. But Rush is an entertainer...even he admits that and claims to be that. He does NOT pretend to be an unbiased media source; the NY Times and others DOES claim to be this. Rush also clearly labels himself as a conservative, republican, etc.

    That is the biggest difference. It might be time to reveal more of that "axe to grind" as they did in the above admission from Sunday. He is a powerful influence on a lot of people, but he is not the press.
  • I was making the distinction between a paper's editorial policy and it's advertisement policy. Those often don't coincide. It is understood that the paper does not endorse everyone or anyone who buys advertising in their pages. The editorial stance is different. That *is* representative of the paper.

    But this bolsters my point that bias should stated upfront and we should chuck any pretense to objectivity since it's impossible to begin with.

    If Rush is *just* an entertainer, there's a lot of "dittoheads" out there. Like it or not, he does have a large influence on politics.
  • sweet tea:
    abbreviated follow-up to response:

    4. No, not always. I just feel like I see press/ commentators behaving as though they are please to report casualties, explosions and problems without context. I cant help but believe their whole platform is based on Bush (America) failing. I hope the Iraqi people can pull it together for themselves and not necessarily for the U.S. I think all Americans should be hoping for that.

    5. Abu Ghraib did NOT go high enough in the chain of command with the punishments IMHO. More people should have been prosecuted and punished. I still believe 90% of the Us military are professional and trying to do their job. that is a higher percentage than I can vouch for in certain offices I have worked in.

    6. Yes, they did invite him back. But the Columbia University did not allow the ROTC on campus because of their "don't ask, don't tell" policies per the military policy. The Iranian prez. is calling for the destruction of Isreal, denies the Holocaust, was possibly one of the kidnappers in the 1979 Iran hostage crisis (according to witnesses Don Sharer) and, Supports and harbors terrorists killing US sioldiers according to analysts and military personal on the ground presently, stops free speech in his country and would have you in a hijab faster than you could say "Jihad".

    But he is allowed to speak at Columbia. He can be allowed, but you cant' have it both ways and claim to be fair is all I'm saying. There are other examples at Columbia as well, but I'll leave it at that.

    7. It has more to do with encouraging behavior that does not HELP the country (and a larger bad immigration policy). Learning multiple languages is a good thing, all who come here should at least WANT to learn English and be strongly encouraged to do so - not the other way around. national security is more complicated than borders and guns. Commerce, Trade,education, immigration are all related to national security.
    (yes, many do want and DO learn English, I am responding to people who call people RACIST for saying people should want to know the language of our laws, constitution and baseball team names). Also without encouraging it, you relegate people to automatic second class status - also not good for the country. CIA expert Robert Baer has some excellent points on how language plays an important role in security. His info is here but you have to read his books. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Baer

    10. Yes, we are NOT the only country in the world and should learn about others. All I ask is that we read their editorials and opinions as carefully and objectively as we read our own and understand THEIR agendas also. Just because they are bashing Bush doesn't make them your friend.

    YES, we need to really put pressure on the Saudis more than we are, but they've got us by the short ones., I'm afraid....No administration will. 15 of 19 of the hijackers on 9/11 were Saudi. That fact still haunts me and yes, the liberal side of the press has pushed this also, but will anyone do anything about it?

    oil.
    Oil.
    OIL.
  • Wow. That was an excellent post. And the only thing I really disagreed with is 4.

    I really don't think there is an agenda on part of the media that America should fail. I think contextless reporting is just par for the course in corporate dumbed-down media because to put anything in context would eat up precious ad minutes. This isn't about ideology. It's about MONEY.
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