3 queers need 2Bdrm for Oct. 1st...and GET a big discussion

doctorj wrote: I think that alafairnadia's response to apollonia666 quote of doublediamond's analysis of alafairnadia's reprise of laurenB's words could potentially be misconstrued or misinterpreted.

aww man! I was hoping my response could be TOTALLY misconstrued. and misinterpreted. preferably to spanish so I could continue with the mocking.

[quote=daver]

what are you trying to say here, daver?

This thread has been going on for sooooo long that I'm thinking laurenB is movin' into that 2 BDRM today.

and that album cover cartoon had what exactly to do with . . . what?

daver wrote: [quote=pitu]what are you trying to say here, daver?

This thread seems to consist mostly of 1) people who can't understand that it is perfectly sane and reasonable to put 'queerness' on the table when searching for a place to live,

you know I'm with you here

daver wrote: and 2) people who can't understand that some people who are not in fact 'queer' can understand that and appreciate it, while maintaining their 'non-queerness'.

can you point this part out to me? srsly.
nobody said "only queers understand this"
and the camp empathizing with laurenB includes both queers and straights, many of who went out of their way to thoughtfully talk about some of the issues raised.

This whole thread has left such a bad taste in my mouth. And to be honest, I feel a lot less comfortable being queer in this neighborhood than I ever have. Tho I know I will probably flamed for it, I will try one last time to explain why in terms that are hopefully unemotional enough that people can really get it without being threatened by it.

I've been out almost 20 years. Its been a long time. And in the course of that being out and queer I've had to face my own internalized homophobia more times than I like to admit to. Tho its not my proudest moment, one of the bigger times I was working as a rape crisis counselor on a hotline and in a hospital. One day I got a call from a gay man who had been raped. And it took me a while in my head to not think of that rape as different than "real rape." This was 10 years after being out, gay and feminist. And it hit me like a ton of bricks that I still had some work to do with my own perceptions around gayness and gender and all of that.

So here I am reading this thread. And every.single.gay.person is arguing a subtle point. It was not ok for anyone ANYONE to post a reply questioning the queer word. And the thing is, when every gay person is saying the same thing, maybe, just maybe there is something to it. Maybe to gay people it is offensive. Maybe its not ok to have to defend that as a selection criteria. Maybe as a gay person its ok to put that out there and have it just be accepted whether people get it or not.

I don't think the people who are on this thread and arguing that Lauren was at fault or rude or whatever you think are by nature being hurtful or mean or even homophobic. But I think there is a very subtle underlying homophobia in it. Regardless of intent. And I guess what is bothering me so much is that as a gay person I am always having those moments of check-in with myself to deal with my own internalized homophobia. Every gay person I know does the same thing. Almost everyone in our culture grows up with some internalized racism, internalized classism, internalized homophobia. Saying you don't have it and not being willing to challenge that you might is what bothers me here.

Listen, I am white as all get out. And one of the things I learned a long time ago is that the privilege of being white on the outside gave me some advantages that people of color didn't have. People can probably see that argument, right? And sometimes you have to challenge your reactions to things. I worry that people aren't challenging their reactions to things in this thread and in many others. Maybe its the nature of online forums. Maybe we all feel threatened a lot easier online, without the subtle things that happen in real life conversation. But I really wish from time to time people would stop and challenge their reactions to things on this board. When you have all the gay people saying something doesn't feel right, then you just have to accept that gay people ultimately define what homophobia is. I can't tell a person of color what racism is or isn't.... I'm not on the receiving end of it. So at the end of the day, I need to trust that when people of color say something is racist, it just is. Even if I don't get it. I'm not on the receiving end of it. Likewise here, if all the gay people are saying the questions were not ok, then like it or not, they weren't. End of story. Regardless of Lauren's reaction. The initial question was out of bounds.

I dont know what its like to be a straight white guy. I don't think I really want to, to be honest. And I get that one minority group after another pegs you all as the big.bad and more often than not you are well meaning, good-hearted people. But you aren't perfect. And instead of hearing discomfort with your reactions and immediately getting into a stance of "I am not a biggot" just stop for a minute and be willing to check in with yourself and see if you don't have a little bit of internalized homphobia/racism/classism/whateverother-ism. Its understandable if you do. We all do. The difference becomes can you look at that, challenge it and grow from it. And my real concern here is that there is no growth from any of this.

My two cents. Hopefully it was taken with the lack of malice with which it was intended. But I gotta say, this place is so polarizing, it makes me sad. This board often makes me feel less neighborly than more. But maybe this just isn't the right fit for me.

jayce wrote: I worry that people aren't challenging their reactions to things in this thread and in many others. Maybe its the nature of online forums. Maybe we all feel threatened a lot easier online, without the subtle things that happen in real life conversation. But I really wish from time to time people would stop and challenge their reactions to things on this board. When you have all the gay people saying something doesn't feel right, then you just have to accept that gay people ultimately define what homophobia is. I can't tell a person of color what racism is or isn't.... I'm not on the receiving end of it. So at the end of the day, I need to trust that when people of color say something is racist, it just is. Even if I don't get it. I'm not on the receiving end of it. Likewise here, if all the gay people are saying the questions were not ok, then like it or not, they weren't. End of story. Regardless of Lauren's reaction. The initial question was out of bounds.

This^.

Thank you, Jayce.

sweet tea wrote: [quote=jayce]
So here I am reading this thread. And every.single.gay.person is arguing a subtle point. It was not ok for anyone ANYONE to post a reply questioning the queer word. And the thing is, when every gay person is saying the same thing, maybe, just maybe there is something to it. Maybe to gay people it is offensive. Maybe its not ok to have to defend that as a selection criteria. Maybe as a gay person its ok to put that out there and have it just be accepted whether people get it or not.

and ^THIS.

Wait, do you mean to tell me that when every member of a particular group that you're not a member of is saying, "I don't think you quite get where we're coming from" and you're saying you don't get where they're coming from, then they might be onto something, rather than just being contrary? Radical. :roll:

someday, for happy hour, let's print this whole sucker out, pass it around the table, and everyone can mark which responses they thought were rude and which not. it'll be fun.

in the meantime, i will just say that, to my eyes, not all of that dialogue was "respectful".

doublediamond wrote: If someone posted 3 blacks, 3 asians or 3 latinos were looking for an apartment someone would have asked why it mattered.

in that case, it may not matter because that is something most frequently discernable upon meeting someone. and as sweet tea so poignantly pointed out earlier, there is not the social ackwardness that ensues when a more-than-likely straight landlord catches on to the 3 men/women and 2 bedrooms.

DD, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. And I will tell you it makes me sad that the one point you seem to have distilled out of all that I wrote is that if someone disagrees with me they are automatically a homophobe. I neither implied nor explicitly stated that.

Alfy, thanks for the kind words. All things considered, I don't think I will be making too many appearances at the happy hour socials. You folks will have to debate without me.

doublediamond wrote:
edited for grammar. Grammar is good.
edited again for grammar because I read too fast and now I just had to grammatically correct my edit so enough with the editing and the grammar.

Well quite frankly, ... ... ... ... ..., ... .

redacted in case I accidentally tread on someone's toes

doctorj wrote: [quote=doublediamond]
edited for grammar. Grammar is good.
edited again for grammar because I read too fast and now I just had to grammatically correct my edit so enough with the editing and the grammar.

Well quite frankly, ... ... ... ... ..., ... .

redacted in case I accidentally tread on someone's toes

I post on televisionwithoutpity a lot and well, these edit explanations are what we do there and I find myself doing them other places too!

rabble rouser