My top 10 likes / dislikes: Gentrification
Curious about how my list compare to others in the heighborhood
Likes
1. I like that the value of my house has really greatly appreciated.
2. I like that there are now services available where previously there were none.
3. I like that some social services have improved.
4. I like that there are occupied buildings where previously there were boarded up abandoned shells.
5. I like that the neighborhood feels a little safer than it did in the past.
6. I like that I'm living in NYC in a neighborhood that has a sense of community and doesn't feel like it’s been the victim of a corporate takeover (yet).
7. I like being in a neighborhood that is pretty diverse economically and ethnically.
8. I like that I can have a car in the neighborhood.
9. I like that I need to go to the city less and less for anything.
10. I like that some hard working middle class people who lived in this neighborhood when it wasn't so good are benefiting by renting apartments for a lot of money to wealthier people.
Dislikes
1. I dislike that it takes other people (with more money) to move into the neighborhood to increase the value of my home and improve the social services in the neighborhood.
2. I dislike that it feels like people in the neighborhood are more verbal / conscious of the differences between one another than the similarities than they were previously.
3. I dislike that instead of the neighborhood becoming a melting pot of everyone, to me it feels like there is a new and separate world being created and it caters exclusively to certain people and excludes others.
4. I dislike that the people now walking by me on the street don't smile, make eye contact or acknowledge my presence when previously, even if it wasn't as safe, when I made eye contact with my neighbors, it was cool, and maybe we even smiled at / greeted each other.
5. I dislike that it is tougher to park around here.
6. I dislike that the people that are being priced out seem more comfortable here than the people that are moving in.
7. I dislike that the people in the neighborhood now seem less community / people oriented and more convenience / service oriented.
8. I dislike that although the neighborhood is safer, it feels like neighbors seem more tense and scared of each other, but only of those different from them.
9. I dislike that people in the neighborhood seem to complain about each other more and talk to each other less.
10. I dislike that there is less and less interaction with new people in the neighborhood and old people in the neighborhood.
I realize that my likes / dislikes are not necessarily directed to anyone based solely on race or economics (when previously I was blaming / directing it towards a specific group) but more based on attitudes that are present here that previously were not.
Likes
1. I like that the value of my house has really greatly appreciated.
2. I like that there are now services available where previously there were none.
3. I like that some social services have improved.
4. I like that there are occupied buildings where previously there were boarded up abandoned shells.
5. I like that the neighborhood feels a little safer than it did in the past.
6. I like that I'm living in NYC in a neighborhood that has a sense of community and doesn't feel like it’s been the victim of a corporate takeover (yet).
7. I like being in a neighborhood that is pretty diverse economically and ethnically.
8. I like that I can have a car in the neighborhood.
9. I like that I need to go to the city less and less for anything.
10. I like that some hard working middle class people who lived in this neighborhood when it wasn't so good are benefiting by renting apartments for a lot of money to wealthier people.
Dislikes
1. I dislike that it takes other people (with more money) to move into the neighborhood to increase the value of my home and improve the social services in the neighborhood.
2. I dislike that it feels like people in the neighborhood are more verbal / conscious of the differences between one another than the similarities than they were previously.
3. I dislike that instead of the neighborhood becoming a melting pot of everyone, to me it feels like there is a new and separate world being created and it caters exclusively to certain people and excludes others.
4. I dislike that the people now walking by me on the street don't smile, make eye contact or acknowledge my presence when previously, even if it wasn't as safe, when I made eye contact with my neighbors, it was cool, and maybe we even smiled at / greeted each other.
5. I dislike that it is tougher to park around here.
6. I dislike that the people that are being priced out seem more comfortable here than the people that are moving in.
7. I dislike that the people in the neighborhood now seem less community / people oriented and more convenience / service oriented.
8. I dislike that although the neighborhood is safer, it feels like neighbors seem more tense and scared of each other, but only of those different from them.
9. I dislike that people in the neighborhood seem to complain about each other more and talk to each other less.
10. I dislike that there is less and less interaction with new people in the neighborhood and old people in the neighborhood.
I realize that my likes / dislikes are not necessarily directed to anyone based solely on race or economics (when previously I was blaming / directing it towards a specific group) but more based on attitudes that are present here that previously were not.
Comments
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Hi - board moderator here,
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To that end, I remind you of our main rule here at Brooklynian, which isDailyHeights wrote: Be nice. If you can't be nice, go to a different website. "Nice" does not mean kittens and rainbows. More like, "general level of civil decorum." It's OK to argue and disagree, and in fact we encourage it, but don't stoop to personal attacks, name calling, shouting wild generalizations like "YOU'RE ALL A BUNCH OF GENTRIFYING YUPPIES", or other childish behavior.
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I currently have one big dislike about gentrification:
It's a very complicated and sensitive topic, and bringing it up just seems to make everyone angry. -
queencallipygos wrote: I currently have one big dislike about gentrification:
It's a very complicated and sensitive topic, and bringing it up just seems to make everyone angry.
Word. -
Thanks for posting your observations, original Top Ten person. While I believe this neighborhood (I am speaking of Clinton Hill, and I live in the south part) may have been even friendlier before, since I moved here I've been overwhelmed with the kindness of my neighbors, the smiles, hellos, and the sense of community that I never found in Carroll Gardens.
This is not meant to invalidate your observations, but just to point out that all of our experiences are relative. As a member of the new gentry here (I feel comfortable calling myself that) I think it's my responsibility to support establishments with roots in the area, and not just the newfangled ones popping up that seem to cater more to the next wave of inhabitants.
That being said I got a bad stomach ache after my second beef patty at Golden Krust and I'll be off that wagon for a while.
I seem to have gotten off topic. I appreciate you sharing your observations though. -
Golden Crust is one of my top ten dislikes
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Bringing up a sensitive topic shouldn't necessarily make people upset, but not addressing a sensitive topic and having things fester, is equally bad and builds unnecessary resentments. And is it really anger or indifference that people feel?
We all play a part in the process and maybe discussing it instead of only venting frustrations (which I too, have been guilty of in the past) isn't healthy or helpful.
Ignoring it suggests that its not important and to some people, it is.
Some of us will be neighbors for a long time (I sure am not selling anytime soon), might as well learn to see something from another perspective and appreciate / possibly understand another point of view.
The point is not to point fingers, but to see and OWN our part in the process and identify if we are helping or hindering the process in our daily lives / interactions / conversations / posts.
Are we all truly being neighborly to ALL of our neighbors? -
Subject: Re: My top 10 likes / dislikes: Gentrification
eberri wrote:
My wife and I have only been here 18 months so I don't feel like I can weigh in on all the topics you have raised but I will on the one I quoted.
Dislikes
4. I dislike that the people now walking by me on the street don't smile, make eye contact or acknowledge my presence when previously, even if it wasn't as safe, when I made eye contact with my neighbors, it was cool, and maybe we even smiled at / greeted each other.
I would have to agree with you on this one. It's somewhat a source of frustration for me since I'm a socialable person.
There are numerous people that we repeatedly see on our walks throughout the neighborhood with our dogs. I do my best to keep my head up in order to make eye contact with people because I think that's an important thing to do in your neighborhood. (Everywhere for that matter but that's another thread some other time.) Rare is the time though when people will nod their head or say "hi". I don't get that.
To paraphrase Andy Warhol I think there's something to be said for having deeply superficial relationaships. The more people I know, even if it's just a passing "hello", the safer I feel on the streets and hopefully the safer others feel too.
I tend to think that it's mostly a generational thing since the majority of the people who will greet us are the older people who look like they've been here for a while or, surprisingly enough, young kids who are drawn to our dogs.
I'm not looking to have long, political discussions with people when I'm trying to get the dogs around the block but a friendly nod from people you see on a regular basis isn't going to hurt anyone. -
Subject: Re: My top 10 likes / dislikes: Gentrification
LimestoneKid wrote: [quote=eberri]
My wife and I have only been here 18 months so I don't feel like I can weigh in on all the topics you have raised but I will on the one I quoted.
Dislikes
4. I dislike that the people now walking by me on the street don't smile, make eye contact or acknowledge my presence when previously, even if it wasn't as safe, when I made eye contact with my neighbors, it was cool, and maybe we even smiled at / greeted each other.
I would have to agree with you on this one. It's somewhat a source of frustration for me since I'm a socialable person.
There are numerous people that we repeatedly see on our walks throughout the neighborhood with our dogs. I do my best to keep my head up in order to make eye contact with people because I think that's an important thing to do in your neighborhood. (Everywhere for that matter but that's another thread some other time.) Rare is the time though when people will nod their head or say "hi". I don't get that.
To paraphrase Andy Warhol I think there's something to be said for having deeply superficial relationaships. The more people I know, even if it's just a passing "hello", the safer I feel on the streets and hopefully the safer others feel too.
I tend to think that it's mostly a generational thing since the majority of the people who will greet us are the older people who look like they've been here for a while or, surprisingly enough, young kids who are drawn to our dogs.
I'm not looking to have long, political discussions with people when I'm trying to get the dogs around the block but a friendly nod from people you see on a regular basis isn't going to hurt anyone.
I understand what you're saying about feeling safer, but I'm one of those people who don't say "hi" to people when I walk by. Why? Because I just don't feel like it. I don't like to say "hi," and I don't mind when people don't say "hi" to me. That's one of the things i love about living in NY - the sense that I don't have to say "hi" to every person I see - and that's okay. I do say hello to a couple people on my block, but only becuase they initiated it first and I feel bad. We're not friends, so why do I have to say anything? I'm a nice person, I'm just not friendly - and I always make the argument that there is a big difference between nice and friendly. I don't feel like saying hi when someone passes me, so what? Doesn't make me a rude person, just makes me someone who doesn't talk to people he doesn't know. Nothing wrong with that, and of course, there's nothing wrong with how you say "hi" to everyone. I just wanted to get the viewpoint out there from one of the people who isn't saying hi. I'm a nice dude for sure, but you won't catch me waving or saying hello if I can help it. -
I'm not trying to start a fight here, but you talk about "people being priced out" as a dislike and middle class property owners being able to rent space for lots of money as one of the things you like about the neighborhood changing. There is a relationship between the two. It sounds like you and your neighbors are helping to create the conditions that cause you both happiness and grief.
I recently moved into bedstuy (I was priced out of CH) and have made efforts to smile and talk with my neighbors, and I look like a middle class professional when I am coming and going from work, probably like a lot of your new neighbors. Why not make more of a conscious effort to keep the camraderie flowing by organizing a block party or starting conversations with your neighbors? Alternatively, you could talk to your existing neighbors about offering lower rents (crazy, I know!). -
windowbox wrote: I'm not trying to start a fight here, but you talk about "people being priced out" as a dislike and middle class property owners being able to rent space for lots of money as one of the things you like about the neighborhood changing. There is a relationship between the two. It sounds like you and your neighbors are helping to create the conditions that cause you both happiness and grief.
A major dichotomy that from the structure of the original lists I doubt is lost on the original poster. One hand giveth... -
Jackson, the only way to be accepted in your neighborhood is to be law abiding, clean, not make a racket AND pay "respect" to the current residents by always saying hi and being superfriendly. If you don't, then you are definitely a jerk (sarcasm intended). You respond to hellos, good enough for me. If people want to say hi, and you respond, what's the beef. Silly concerns of the parochial and insecure who know nothing of any other culture or society.
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Anonymous wrote: Jackson, the only way to be accepted in your neighborhood is to be law abiding, clean, not make a racket AND pay "respect" to the current residents by always saying hi and being superfriendly. If you don't, then you are definitely a jerk (sarcasm intended). You respond to hellos, good enough for me. If people want to say hi, and you respond, what's the beef. Silly concerns of the parochial and insecure who know nothing of any other culture or society.
No "beef," was just stating my point of view on it. I'm nice to everyone (like I said) just not friendly. And please refrain from the over-the-internet insults. They hurt so badly...
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I'm 11.40. I wasn't insulting you Jackson, I was being sarcastic and saying that those who think your behavior is a problem are parochial, insecure losers.
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Subject: Re: My top 10 likes / dislikes: Gentrification
jackson wrote: [quote=LimestoneKid][quote=eberri]
My wife and I have only been here 18 months so I don't feel like I can weigh in on all the topics you have raised but I will on the one I quoted.
Dislikes
4. I dislike that the people now walking by me on the street don't smile, make eye contact or acknowledge my presence when previously, even if it wasn't as safe, when I made eye contact with my neighbors, it was cool, and maybe we even smiled at / greeted each other.
I would have to agree with you on this one. It's somewhat a source of frustration for me since I'm a socialable person.
There are numerous people that we repeatedly see on our walks throughout the neighborhood with our dogs. I do my best to keep my head up in order to make eye contact with people because I think that's an important thing to do in your neighborhood. (Everywhere for that matter but that's another thread some other time.) Rare is the time though when people will nod their head or say "hi". I don't get that.
To paraphrase Andy Warhol I think there's something to be said for having deeply superficial relationaships. The more people I know, even if it's just a passing "hello", the safer I feel on the streets and hopefully the safer others feel too.
I tend to think that it's mostly a generational thing since the majority of the people who will greet us are the older people who look like they've been here for a while or, surprisingly enough, young kids who are drawn to our dogs.
I'm not looking to have long, political discussions with people when I'm trying to get the dogs around the block but a friendly nod from people you see on a regular basis isn't going to hurt anyone.
I understand what you're saying about feeling safer, but I'm one of those people who don't say "hi" to people when I walk by. Why? Because I just don't feel like it. I don't like to say "hi," and I don't mind when people don't say "hi" to me. That's one of the things i love about living in NY - the sense that I don't have to say "hi" to every person I see - and that's okay. I do say hello to a couple people on my block, but only becuase they initiated it first and I feel bad. We're not friends, so why do I have to say anything? I'm a nice person, I'm just not friendly - and I always make the argument that there is a big difference between nice and friendly. I don't feel like saying hi when someone passes me, so what? Doesn't make me a rude person, just makes me someone who doesn't talk to people he doesn't know. Nothing wrong with that, and of course, there's nothing wrong with how you say "hi" to everyone. I just wanted to get the viewpoint out there from one of the people who isn't saying hi. I'm a nice dude for sure, but you won't catch me waving or saying hello if I can help it.
But don't you think its insulting to see someone everyday, walk by them and not acknowledge their presence? I don't mind "strangers" not acknowledging me, but when I see the same person every day for months or years, and they stare through me as if they had never laid eyes on me before, it does start to feel, well, rude - - and personal. It doesn't have to be a wave or a hello. But a bit of eye contact and a brief nod of the head is plenty and gets you out of the "WTF did I ever do to him?" catagory. -
Why don't you introduce yourself and say hello. This is all rooted in ghetto culture's preoccupation with being "respected" and is common to many underclass societies. If it is a real issue to you, say hello the newcomer. If they don't respond, then yes, that is rude. However, you are engaging in the same behavior by not saying hello yourself. Initiate it if it such a problem. Oh, but wait, they need to respect you and say hello first because they are new to the area... puleeeaaaze.
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Anonymous wrote: Why don't you introduce yourself and say hello. This is all rooted in ghetto culture's preoccupation with being "respected" and is common to many underclass societies.
I don't know about if it's ghetto to want your neighbors to act like human beings. I do think, however, that their standoffishness is probably not personal but rather a product of their upbringing. Some people just weren't taught proper manners! -
This is purely an insecurity issue. If all those who want to think newbies are standoffish just said hello, they'd see there is not a problem. However, being insecure, some insist on not being welcoming and saying hello to newbies and then assume that if the newbies don't say hello first, that the newbies must not like them or not care about them. Again, if it bothers you so much, say hello to the newbies you see regularly. If they don't have proper manners, they will ignore you. I highly doubt that will be the case. This is all about your own insecurity and the chip you carry on your shoulder.
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having to smile/nod/say hello to every person i meet every day is a ridiculous standard. there are too many people, for one thing, and for another, i am entitled to being in a bad/depressed/non-communicative mood. when i feel like it or if it is a person i know, i'll say hello. but i'm not going to spend the entire 30 seconds i spend walking towards you staring you down, wondering "are we going to make eye contact? i don't know? should i stop looking at him? i don't know" etc. there's too many people i pass in my neighborhood on any given day to say hello and "acknowledge their presence" and some days i am in a bad mood, feeling depressed or whatever and i don't feel like making human contact. that's who i am. when i'm feeling good i'll say hello and make conversation but i'm not a god. none of this makes me rude or a bad neighbor or means my parents didn't "raise me right".
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If I see you everyday I will say hello to you. If you say nothing in response, I will probably try again the next time. If you still say nothing the next time, I will likely ignore you from then onwards.
If you say hello, but only after I say hello every time, I will likely stop saying hello to you after a few times of this. Dont do me no favors, lol.
It is nothing to do with ghetto culture as far as I can see, just common decency. I just think it is wrong to walk right by the same people everyday without at least a smile, nod, or hello. BTW, there are oldheads and newbies alike who walk straight by without saying a word. Similarly, lots of oldheads and newbies love to say hello, many going out of their way to make sure that you see them waving, etc. -
DETROP: you are making this seem too complicated. don't worry about it so much. it shouldn't be so much of an effort.
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Anonymous wrote: I'm 11.40. I wasn't insulting you Jackson, I was being sarcastic and saying that those who think your behavior is a problem are parochial, insecure losers.
oops, sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. -
DETROP: you are making this seem too complicated. don't worry about it so much. it shouldn't be so much of an effort.
i'd like to reassure myself with that thought on my more neurotic days, but when so many people opine that it people are rude for what they do or don't say/nod/etc. i'm not so sure... -
i'm glad you're not upset about my last comment. i think some of us are naturally people people, and some not. but sometimes it pays dividends down the line to concede a little smile to a neighbor. think about that the next time you lock yourself out of the apartment, which inevitably happens to me about once a year.
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if you're "middle class" and renting out apartments in your gigantic brownstone I would go and say you are no longer middle class
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Actually I feel the opposite (at least on my block) --- I try to make eye contact and smile and most people look with stoic dispositions...it's like no one WANTS to say hi. that being said there are a few people i say hi to. but generally i dont talk unless talked to. i dont really like to talk to people i dont know, it's just how i was raised. however, i easily would. i like the previous poster's sentiment of being nice but not friendly. i'm very much the same way.
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After living in Chicago for a brief stint and moving back NY, I remember my first day in the neighborhood being a bit 'weirded out' that people don't automatically say hi, or even smile and make eye contact for that matter. I was so used to the routine semi-smile, especially if you're walking down the block and you are the only 2 on the street! After a few days, I settled back into the "Icy New Yorker Walk", but I realized that alot of this might just be a New Yorker thing. I don't want to fall into my own stereotype here, but it's not a natural inclination for New Yorkers to just say hi to people they don't know, and I don't think theres anything wrong with that.. It doesn't make me mean and it doesn't make me stoic. I do always say hi, if not more, to those I recognize or know in the neighborhood, but I think it's okay to pass by the ones you don't know.
I will say, though, that while I am a native of New York City, I'm a recent addition to Brooklyn, and there's definetly more of a community vibe here. I'm not nixing the occasional hi to someone sitting on their stoop while you're on a Saturday stroll, but I don't think it's wrong or impolite to pass strangers by on the street when you're on your way to the subway or dinner or whatever.
So, while Brooklyn and FG/CH/BS all are neighborhoods defined by their community character, they are also in New York City, where saying hi to strangers may not be the norm. If someone doesn't say hi to you, don't take it the wrong way. They're probabbly just focused on something else. -
Its not an issue of speaking to strangers. It is whether it is impolite to speak to your neighbors, people that you see regularly. I don't think there is anything wrong in NYC with not talking to strangers. I do think that if you live next door to someone for five years you should be polite enough to nod in their direction when you pass each other coming and going.
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Subject: Re: My top 10 likes / dislikes: Gentrification
jackson wrote:
I'm friendly, but not nice :evil:
I'm a nice person, I'm just not friendly - and I always make the argument that there is a big difference between nice and friendly... -
homeowner wrote: Its not an issue of speaking to strangers. It is whether it is impolite to not speak to your neighbors, people that you see regularly. I don't think there is anything wrong in NYC with not talking to strangers. I do think that if you live next door to someone for five years you should be polite enough to nod in their direction when you pass each other coming and going.
I'm with you on this. I think most people on my block would agree with you because we all mostly acknowledge eachother going about our business. I find that even shy or introverted people can sense when you are about to nod or smile and they generally reciprocate.
On the otherhand, there are people who generally never smile/nod and I do not feel slighted by their failure to do so. I just view them as having the issue, not me. -
Anonymous wrote: Why don't you introduce yourself and say hello. This is all rooted in ghetto culture's preoccupation with being "respected" and is common to many underclass societies. If it is a real issue to you, say hello the newcomer. If they don't respond, then yes, that is rude. However, you are engaging in the same behavior by not saying hello yourself. Initiate it if it such a problem. Oh, but wait, they need to respect you and say hello first because they are new to the area... puleeeaaaze.
Ghetto culture????
It's a Southern thing and it's also a West Indian thing, even the non underclass societies there.
They call it common courtesy. Sounds as though "new" people are moving into an established culture (probably from Manhattan where many people don't say hello to anyone they don't know, there are way too many people there) and are being unintentionally rude.
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