Yeah, I am glad I left the Heights
Comments
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No complaint here, I'm all for personal responsibility.
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filmlover44 wrote: [quote=SevenOneEighty] know I will get grief from some for even suggesting personal responsibilit. That's how far out we are in this country today. You can't even suggest that a person's situation in life might have something, ANYTHING to do with THEIR choices is absolutely unacceptable and politically incorrect. We have been doing this for decades now and the situation is NOT improving for too many.
I eagerly wait to see if anyone is going to give you grief about personal responsibility.
Yea, I often get the 'ol:
"Hey, don't give me the 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps speech', America is (fill in the blank) and it's impossible to get ahead.... " in convos like this. I've also had them in past discussion on this site and at other social gatherings, etc. It has become almost a knee-jerk reaction any time you bring up, say:
gun violence: "black people don't make the guns or bring them in the country".
drugs/ crack: "black people don't grow cocaine or bring it in the country".
violence: "hey, people feel hopeless in America so they shoot each other" or "the black middle class left in the 60s after segregation and black people lost their minds..."
hip hop culture: "people are just reflecting reality in the 'hood on videos"
STDs/ Aids/ unintentional pregnancy: "the government doesn't give enough information out about prevention in the black community".
bad behavior: "they are just expressing themselves the only way they know how and we shouldn't judge - and what about the corporations, politicians...".
absentee fathers: "the government makes it impossible to keep the black family together because of public assistance laws..."
low test scores: "the test is racially biased against black people - even the math section....".
ebonics: "this is historic speech patterns from the days of slavery passed down from generations and we shouldn't judge someone over this".
convicted murder: "he was set up by the cops and is a political prisoner, FREE (fill in the blank)!!"
just a few examples off the top of my head that void personal responsibility as an option.
Everyone on this board had heard some version of these types of arguments. All of them remove personal responsibility or mention it with a big "BUT..." and a long list of unrelated grievances about how evil America is and WHY this came it be, etc. The arguments can even be valid, but never move to solve the problem - only to define it as it exists.
thats all I'm talking about.
A MOD can move this discussion as appropriate - it doesn't really have to do with Brooklyn, per say..but it is here.
But if the boot straps fit...... -
BrooklynGal wrote: Why here? Because there are many topics/messages concerning crime in the neighborhood and it seems most people dance around the problems. I mean, let's face it, we have no problem making fun of and disdaining Italian ways of crime (forget "The Sopranos" ... that's fiction), but if someone mentions the fact that so many black youths in America seem to be playing by totally different rules, they are called racist or worse. The we start hearing about white-collar crime and how the white man is to blame (and yes, some white men are to blame, especially the ones who buy drugs or embezzle funds, etc.), but I grew disgusted at hearing everything but a call for personal responsibility. And yes, I know many many men, of all races and creeds and skin tones, who are wonderful and lovely and worthy of respect. I have mentioned my father. But for goodness sake, let's all be honest: If there were no black males in Crown Heights, and instead their places were taken by Amish families and nuns, would the crime rate decrease? I know I am sounding angry and depressed and sad, and I am. But I am no racist.
Maybe you need a little white validation? -
SevenOneEighty wrote: [quote=filmlover44][quote=SevenOneEighty] know I will get grief from some for even suggesting personal responsibilit. That's how far out we are in this country today. You can't even suggest that a person's situation in life might have something, ANYTHING to do with THEIR choices is absolutely unacceptable and politically incorrect. We have been doing this for decades now and the situation is NOT improving for too many.
I eagerly wait to see if anyone is going to give you grief about personal responsibility.
Yea, I often get the 'ol:
"Hey, don't give me the 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps speech', America is (fill in the blank) and it's impossible to get ahead.... " in convos like this. I've also had them in past discussion on this site and at other social gatherings, etc. It has become almost a knee-jerk reaction any time you bring up, say:
gun violence: "black people don't make the guns or bring them in the country".
drugs/ crack: "black people don't grow cocaine or bring it in the country".
violence: "hey, people feel hopeless in America so they shoot each other" or "the black middle class left in the 60s after segregation and black people lost their minds..."
hip hop culture: "people are just reflecting reality in the 'hood on videos"
STDs/ Aids/ unintentional pregnancy: "the government doesn't give enough information out about prevention in the black community".
bad behavior: "they are just expressing themselves the only way they know how and we shouldn't judge - and what about the corporations, politicians...".
absentee fathers: "the government makes it impossible to keep the black family together because of public assistance laws..."
low test scores: "the test is racially biased against black people - even the math section....".
ebonics: "this is historic speech patterns from the days of slavery passed down from generations and we shouldn't judge someone over this".
convicted murder: "he was set up by the cops and is a political prisoner, FREE (fill in the blank)!!"
just a few examples off the top of my head that void personal responsibility as an option.
Everyone on this board had heard some version of these types of arguments. All of them remove personal responsibility or mention it with a big "BUT..." and a long list of unrelated grievances about how evil America is and WHY this came it be, etc. The arguments can even be valid, but never move to solve the problem - only to define it as it exists.
thats all I'm talking about.
A MOD can move this discussion as appropriate - it doesn't really have to do with Brooklyn, per say..but it is here.
But if the boot straps fit......
I'm still waiting with baited breath for one of those good old Liberal White Racist posts about how Shooting should be expected cause it is, you know, a BLACK neighborhood.... C'mon, there's got to be one here somewhere cause you know, <sarcasm>all white people are stupid like that.</sarcasm>
...waiting
...waiting
Also, I believe that it's EUBONICS, not EBONICS and not everybody in jail is actually guilty. -
Brooklynbound wrote: [quote=BrooklynGal]Why here? Because there are many topics/messages concerning crime in the neighborhood and it seems most people dance around the problems. I mean, let's face it, we have no problem making fun of and disdaining Italian ways of crime (forget "The Sopranos" ... that's fiction), but if someone mentions the fact that so many black youths in America seem to be playing by totally different rules, they are called racist or worse. The we start hearing about white-collar crime and how the white man is to blame (and yes, some white men are to blame, especially the ones who buy drugs or embezzle funds, etc.), but I grew disgusted at hearing everything but a call for personal responsibility. And yes, I know many many men, of all races and creeds and skin tones, who are wonderful and lovely and worthy of respect. I have mentioned my father. But for goodness sake, let's all be honest: If there were no black males in Crown Heights, and instead their places were taken by Amish families and nuns, would the crime rate decrease? I know I am sounding angry and depressed and sad, and I am. But I am no racist.
Maybe you need a little white validation?
That would be my guess. -
"It's because we can't see ourselves as the boss
Deep-rooted through slavery, self-hatred
The Jewish stick together, friends in high places
We on some low-level shit.. we don't want n*ggaz to ever win"
- Nas -
filmlover44 wrote: [quote=SevenOneEighty][quote=filmlover44][quote=SevenOneEighty] know I will get grief from some for even suggesting personal responsibilit. That's how far out we are in this country today. You can't even suggest that a person's situation in life might have something, ANYTHING to do with THEIR choices is absolutely unacceptable and politically incorrect. We have been doing this for decades now and the situation is NOT improving for too many.
I eagerly wait to see if anyone is going to give you grief about personal responsibility.
Yea, I often get the 'ol:
"Hey, don't give me the 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps speech', America is (fill in the blank) and it's impossible to get ahead.... " in convos like this. I've also had them in past discussion on this site and at other social gatherings, etc. It has become almost a knee-jerk reaction any time you bring up, say:
gun violence: "black people don't make the guns or bring them in the country".
drugs/ crack: "black people don't grow cocaine or bring it in the country".
violence: "hey, people feel hopeless in America so they shoot each other" or "the black middle class left in the 60s after segregation and black people lost their minds..."
hip hop culture: "people are just reflecting reality in the 'hood on videos"
STDs/ Aids/ unintentional pregnancy: "the government doesn't give enough information out about prevention in the black community".
bad behavior: "they are just expressing themselves the only way they know how and we shouldn't judge - and what about the corporations, politicians...".
absentee fathers: "the government makes it impossible to keep the black family together because of public assistance laws..."
low test scores: "the test is racially biased against black people - even the math section....".
ebonics: "this is historic speech patterns from the days of slavery passed down from generations and we shouldn't judge someone over this".
convicted murder: "he was set up by the cops and is a political prisoner, FREE (fill in the blank)!!"
just a few examples off the top of my head that void personal responsibility as an option.
Everyone on this board had heard some version of these types of arguments. All of them remove personal responsibility or mention it with a big "BUT..." and a long list of unrelated grievances about how evil America is and WHY this came it be, etc. The arguments can even be valid, but never move to solve the problem - only to define it as it exists.
thats all I'm talking about.
A MOD can move this discussion as appropriate - it doesn't really have to do with Brooklyn, per say..but it is here.
But if the boot straps fit......
I'm still waiting with baited breath for one of those good old Liberal White Racist posts about how Shooting should be expected cause it is, you know, a BLACK neighborhood.... C'mon, there's got to be one here somewhere cause you know, <sarcasm>all white people are stupid like that.</sarcasm>
...waiting
...waiting
Also, I believe that it's EUBONICS, not EBONICS and not everybody in jail is actually guilty.
I don't know the race of this poster, but this was posted last night (8/28/07) about a person being shot in the neighborhood recently; details pending:RBG wrote: Don't tell me about snitching. And please don't tell me about gentrification. Random shootings occur when people, regardless of color, have nothing left to lose. People shoot guns for fun when a little time in jail is better than life on St. Johns Place. I challenge you to take a real look at what the heck is going on in this neighborhood. This is what happens when people are left with no hope and have nothing to live for. When you get a second, just take a few real moments to look at what the neighborhood's become. Its right there in black and white.
This person may be white or black but it doesn't matter.
Does this post qualify?
Everyone in jail is not necessarily guilty, but I will make the statistical argument that MOST in prison ARE guilty of a crime - or two. And the percentage of those in American jails being touted as "political prisoners" are nothing more than caught criminals who finally found time to read a few books and get a clue. They are NOT heroes to be admired, IMO (i.e., Mumia, Tookie,O.J.): We can do better and have better examples of good heroes, but many don't want them for a number of reasons.
Now the prison system sucks so everyone should try to stay out of it harder because of the great opportunities that one has in this country (calling Michael Vick).
We just have to change. -
SevenOneEighty wrote: I don't know the race of this poster, but this was posted last night (8/28/07) about a person being shot in the neighborhood recently; details pending:
It would be if it was about personal responsibility in the Black community and if it were on this thread. It looks to me like an angry and emotional (and ever so slightly inaccurate) post about what the poster believes are the sociological factors that contribute to crime in a neighborhood, attributing it to the process of gentrification (when in fact, it was a high crime neighborhood well beforehand). While this person may, in fact, hold the opinions that you are trying to demonstrate, this post is probably not the best example.
RBG wrote:
Don't tell me about snitching. And please don't tell me about gentrification. Random shootings occur when people, regardless of color, have nothing left to lose. People shoot guns for fun when a little time in jail is better than life on St. Johns Place. I challenge you to take a real look at what the heck is going on in this neighborhood. This is what happens when people are left with no hope and have nothing to live for. When you get a second, just take a few real moments to look at what the neighborhood's become. Its right there in black and white.
This person may be white or black but it doesn't matter.
Does this post qualify? -
SevenOneEighty wrote:
As a speaker of neither Standard American Englilsh nor African American Vernacular English, I would broadly agree with the above statement, at least from a linguistic point of view. Prestige is another matter -- in many countries and languages, non-standard dialects are looked down upon -- but it's clear to me that AAVE meets all the functional criteria of being a distinct living dialect or family of dialects, and that it was influenced by African creoles.
ebonics: "this is historic speech patterns from the days of slavery passed down from generations and we shouldn't judge someone over this". -
White validation? I don't even know what you are striving to mean by that, and it is not due to my inability to understand semiotics or deconstructivism ... or postmodernism ... I am a proud english major. All tha aside, lose your skin-tone identity. I am truly a non-biased woman, and I wish more people could speak honestly. I am sad, and grieve for the next young black man who thinks it is cool to parade around with a pit bull. (Sorry, I have had a few glasses of wine tonight ... still unpacking in my new place, and that is, as I am sure many of your know, tiring ... I mean the unpacking, not the drinking of the wine.)
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I am glad you left!!!
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Okay,
"People shoot guns for fun when a little time in jail is better than life on St. Johns Place..."
There is no interpretation or room for personal responsibility in that quote...? I have to disagree with that and would say one could possibly find something better to do in NYC than shoot a gun for fun...It may not be the best example, but I have heard similar arguments about why things happen in certain neighborhoods. I don't think it is acceptable though.
Dr. J,As a speaker of neither Standard American Englilsh nor African American Vernacular English, I would broadly agree with the above statement, at least from a linguistic point of view. Prestige is another matter -- in many countries and languages, non-standard dialects are looked down upon -- but it's clear to me that AAVE meets all the functional criteria of being a distinct living dialect or family of dialects, and that it was influenced by African creoles.
Academically and technically accurate.
Socially, financially and economically crippling. -
BrooklynGal wrote: White validation? I don't even know what you are striving to mean by that, and it is not due to my inability to understand semiotics or deconstructivism ... or postmodernism ... I am a proud english major. All tha aside, lose your skin-tone identity. I am truly a non-biased woman, and I wish more people could speak honestly. I am sad, and grieve for the next young black man who thinks it is cool to parade around with a pit bull. (Sorry, I have had a few glasses of wine tonight ... still unpacking in my new place, and that is, as I am sure many of your know, tiring ... I mean the unpacking, not the drinking of the wine.)
Yea, I'm not feeling that whole "validation" argument or what that is supposed to mean. I'm not glad that BG left either. I'm not trying to be difficult or cause a fight.
The problem with the "validation" arguments is that it is 1)meant as an insult to shut down a discussion or dialougue. 2)It implies she has no sense of self worth and that is the only reason she left and needs "white people" to feel special about herself and that's just unfair. It's almost like someone deciding to attend a different school and make better grades and being called "suspect" for that....the word "better", in this discussion, could be debated here.
Admittedly BG opens herself up here by posting her feelings and still sounds pretty angry and sad about the whole thing. But to simply dismiss her as a person with low self worth/ esteem misses the larger target of a good social discussion.
Now I'm really sure this thread doesn't belong on this PH board
But in the context of a discussion about race and class and economics it's a worthy discussion. For me, I really want things in our communities to change for the better. for the violence, disrespect and hatred to stop. I think we have to all tackle the REAL sources of these causes. I am involved with youths here in NY in volunteer mentoring programs. it is a challenge to break down barriers and to give back. It requires sacrifice but I actually enjoy doing it and I believe it's important.
However, everyone cannot do that, but they can do other things to help make communities better (including calling 911 when a crime occurs). As a country I think we'll have to stop glorifying all bad, self destructive behaviors right at the source, from '50 Cent' all the way to the President.
I agree with BG that we do have to be honest about issues (while still respectful and compassionate - but honest and not PC) and that may be too painful for some people to bear. -
kaki wrote: I am glad you left!!!
I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just curious. Why are you glad that she left? -
SevenOneEighty wrote:
Not at all. The point was that she posted this on a forum of mostly white people who are relatively "new" to the neighborhood and can not afford to move or have chosen not to. I obviously have no problem discussing the issue and I also like asking questions about people who choose to post about the issue so that I can fully understand the point they are trying to make.
The problem with the "validation" arguments is that it is 1)meant as an insult to shut down a discussion or dialougue. 2)It implies she has no sense of self worth and that is the only reason she left and needs "white people" to feel special about herself and that's just unfair. It's almost like someone deciding to attend a different school and make better grades and being called "suspect" for that....the word "better", in this discussion, could be debated here.
I personally get irritated by a couple of things,
1) White Liberal Racists (and Black people who hate themselves) who say things like "You moved to this neighborhood, what did you expect and why are you complaining about the peroblems" as though we shouldn't expect better of ourselves an others. These folks validate each other all of the time and
2) White people who feel entitled to lecture Black people as to how they can and should do so much better as though many (if not most) Black people aren't smart enough to know this for themselves.
The O.P. has a valid point but has presented a wonderful opportunity for the 1st and 2nd types to pitch in and validate the Black people "bad", unable to figure this out for themselves. IMHO, this is a discussion for the Black community. She might find that there are many people out there working to improve things. -
filmlover44 wrote: [quote=SevenOneEighty]
Not at all. The point was that she posted this on a forum of mostly white people who are relatively "new" to the neighborhood and can not afford to move or have chosen not to. I obviously have no problem discussing the issue and I also like asking questions about people who choose to post about the issue so that I can fully understand the point they are trying to make.
The problem with the "validation" arguments is that it is 1)meant as an insult to shut down a discussion or dialougue. 2)It implies she has no sense of self worth and that is the only reason she left and needs "white people" to feel special about herself and that's just unfair. It's almost like someone deciding to attend a different school and make better grades and being called "suspect" for that....the word "better", in this discussion, could be debated here.
I personally get irritated by a couple of things,
1) White Liberal Racists (and Black people who hate themselves) who say things like "You moved to this neighborhood, what did you expect and why are you complaining about the peroblems" as though we shouldn't expect better of ourselves an others. These folks validate each other all of the time and
2) White people who feel entitled to lecture Black people as to how they can and should do so much better as though many (if not most) Black people aren't smart enough to know this for themselves.
The O.P. has a valid point but has presented a wonderful opportunity for the 1st and 2nd types to pitch in and validate the Black people "bad", unable to figure this out for themselves. IMHO, this is a discussion for the Black community. She might find that there are many people out there working to improve things.
Okay, I do understand your points.
These discussion DO take place on mostly black online discussion boards also but I think it is also okay for them to happen here too, in the right context.
I don't think anything being discussed here is top secret though - the cat is out of the bag, so to speak. The discussion and solutions are going to have to happen across the spectrum but not solely of and by black people only. Ultimately black people hold the most important key. I don't think those types of closed discussions exist in our communities anymore...it's everywhere and not a secret.
But I will say that a good many white people have gone out of their way to NOT be racist and ignorant and to be compassionate about real issues in black communities too. (I'm sure you are aware). Yes, there is also an inherent racism attached to some liberal philosophies, for sure. And complacency in a situation may not necessarily be self-hatred either, but I think I understand what you are saying.
But I think the perception of "silence" of a closed club of solutions is not the way to go. It is similar to saying only Muslims can deal with the issue of radical Islam and its results and they should only discuss it amongst themselves...I think its more effective to speak out against radicalism using a variety of channels - including non Muslim ones. Black culture is not an island or in a vacuum; it touches almost every aspect of American life and culture - turn on the tva take a walk down the block.
Hey, even as cynical as I am, I don't think it's hopeless and I do see small ripples of attitude change happening locally and nationally - but it will take work for things to improve substantially. Anyone who would take a discussion like this and turn it in to"all black people are bad" is already racist so it doesn't matter what they think.
I don't think this board (assuming it is mostly "white" - an interesting assumption for a number of reasons) are in that camp. At least not from the posts that I've read. This is probably one of THE largest most diverse message boards in the WORLD. Seriously. CH, PH and FG are some of the most diverse places in the country. It is probably mostly white , but so is America.
The people in the black community who do want things to get better must also speak up publicly, because I think it helps the case when people not a part of the black community (whites and others) see it and understand it too. I think that helps the cause for change. That is why I think a discussion like this can happen here.
I was hoping to get BG to engage a little more on what her intent and hopes are regarding the black community or has she completely given up forever never to return? Just curious.
And why hasn't a MOD moved this to the lounge already? -
Not given up at all. I am a Big Sister ... I volunteer and each weekend spend time with a girl, age 8 ... very rewarding, very fulfilling. I am making my impact where I can. Need no validation, need no pity. Keep on talking and thinking, I say.
-
SevenOneEighty wrote:
i haven't moved this thread because the OP was specifically taking about PH, even if it has become a more general discussion. i can see pros and cons to moving it, but is there a big con to leaving it here that i'm missing?
And why hasn't a MOD moved this to the lounge already?
also: just fyi, if you want a mod to do something, the best thing is to send a pm -- that way we're sure to see it. -
sweet tea wrote: [quote=SevenOneEighty]
i haven't moved this thread because the OP was specifically taking about PH, even if it has become a more general discussion. i can see pros and cons to moving it, but is there a big con to leaving it here that i'm missing?
And why hasn't a MOD moved this to the lounge already?
also: just fyi, if you want a mod to do something, the best thing is to send a pm -- that way we're sure to see it.
cool. don't mind me.
I'll pm next time. -
I don't think that it's a closed case subject and don't care where it's discussed. The problems are not going to be solved here on a mostly white forum. And no, that's not an assumption because A, I am the last person to assume and
most of the people on this board discuss race issues and have identified themselves and, being who I am, I pay attention. That may change, but wishing that it were true is not going to make it true.
My interest was completely regarding her intent in posting it here on this forum given the above facts that I mention.
Black leaders ARE speaking up publicly.
And true, her intent and hopes regarding the black community are of interest... -
SevenOneEighty wrote:
Clearly in a world where Standard English is the language of commerce, and being able to write and speak it well is held in high regard, African Americans have much to gain by mastering it as well as possible, just like everyone else. That's an argument for being bidialectical, not stamping out AAVE. With respect to dialects, what has happened in many other languages is that for a period societies treated them with loathing and tried to suppress them, only realizing belatedly that they were losing something valuable and integral to their culture, and fighting a rearguard action to preserve them. I know this personally, because my wife is bidialectical, but alas she will be the last generation in touch with a major branch of a language that was once spoken by half a country, decimated by war, then given a death blow by an education system. There is no way for us to carry on the language and culture of my parents in law that has been distinct for a thousand years.
Dr. J,As a speaker of neither Standard American Englilsh nor African American Vernacular English, I would broadly agree with the above statement, at least from a linguistic point of view. Prestige is another matter -- in many countries and languages, non-standard dialects are looked down upon -- but it's clear to me that AAVE meets all the functional criteria of being a distinct living dialect or family of dialects, and that it was influenced by African creoles.
Academically and technically accurate.
Socially, financially and economically crippling.
Now I don't know for sure how I would feel if I were an AAVE speaker, but I would hope I would be proud of the language I was born into, and while determined that a child should master the standard version, also be proud of and carry on the dialect.
Howdy, Stranger!
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