Question about leases

ps sarah · September 2007

My lease expired in March and I'm month to month now. My LL told me she was going to draw up a new lease and told me the new rent several months ago. I started paying the new rent, but she hasn't given me my new lease yet. My question is... if I started paying the new rent, does that constitute an agreement to a lease extension? If I wanted to move out, can I legally do so (giving 30 days notice), or can she claim I'm breaking my lease and withhold my security deposit?

krnie · September 2007

TenantNet would probably be able to answer this question - if you go to their forum and do a search, you'll be able to find this out. I think I've seen this very question there before.

dakotas way · September 2007

I think...technically, if you don't have a signed lease that would kind of put you in the month to month range. Again, technically, I would think you have every right to move out since it would seem no "in date lease" is in place.
Certainly a point to argue with the landlord if you want to move out.
Kind of a "you snooze, you lose" for the landlord.
Probably, if you give her 30 days notice in writing, it should work.

treetopview · September 2007

You are still month to month. Theoretically you could have an oral agreement for a lease, but that's sort of a difficult thing to prove. As a month to month tenant you actually don't have to give any notice, but it certainly is a polite thing to do (and makes you look better should there actually be any dispute).

bunnycup · September 2007

It sounds to me like you and your landlord have a VERBAL agreement to an extension of the 1-year lease for another year. Under well-settled NY law, a VERBAL agreement for any conveyance of property (a deed) or lease for 1 year or more, is invalid and unenforcable. That is, unless your lease is for less than 1 year, a verbal agreement to extend can't be enforced by either party. Having said that, I believe the failure of the verbal lease extension would put you back at a month to month tenancy until you terminate the month-to-month by moving out or signing a written lease. Assuming you gave proper notice (*), you would not be in violation of a now-expired lease by moving out, and as such should not expect to forfeit your security deposit (**).

(*) Proper notice does not mean 30 days. Proper notice means 30 days+. Notice given today, September 4 (through October 31), would not be "proper" for any move out date prior to November 1. Proper notice does not allow you to give notice on September 4 and move out October 4; the "calendar" monthly periods continue to operate; so, if you give notice in the middle of a month, you need to add a month.

(**) I belive, in NYC, you technically do not forfeit your security deposit even if you do move out without notice by breaking a lease. The security deposit in NYC is ONLY to be used for repairs; it is not the landlord's personal "damages" account for any violation of the lease. Technically, a landlord is not allowed to use it to cover missing rent. Practically, it may be hard to stop a landlord from doing so. (Aside: That is why some landlords request a last month and a security deposit, which really you should never be bamboozled into paying.)

I am not your lawyer, this information is from memory, I have done no research, and you should not rely on my opinions.

dakotas way · September 2007

So you're saying that proper notice is whatever date it is presently and leading into the 1st of the next calendar month and then add on 30 days?
I've never heard of that before.
I always thought it was 30 days from the date of notice, which ususally, the notice I've ever gotten was on or near the first of the month.
But I run my rentals on a month to month basis because it's easiest for all involved if someone wants to move out or is a problem tenant and I need to ask them to leave.
I'd never want to deal with a tenant who is trapped by a lease and doesn't want to be there.
Too many headaches....

bunnycup · September 2007

Here's what I am saying, assuming a a month-to-month tenancy in which rent is paid on the 1st of each month:

Assuming notice given by September 1 - proper for a move out date of September 30.

Assuming notice given on September 10 - proper for a move out date of October 31 (notice not "effective" until there is a rent period, here 30 days, that fully elapses)

Assuming notice given by Octrober 1 - proper for a move out date of October 31.

Link that may help explain it better than I am able: http://www.thelpa.com/lpa/tips/landlord-tips.html

Or, stated differently: "For example, if the rent is due on the first of each month, the landlord must inform the tenant by September 30th before the October rent is due that he wants the tenant to move out by November 1st.
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/realestate/guide_intro.html#3

It's just a technicality, and doesn't really end up being a difficulty for most people, who naturally tend to give notice at the right time. But, the rare few people who think they can give notice on September 5 to move out on October 5 cannot technically do so. I'm not implying that was the OP's intent here.

dakotas way · September 2007

I see.
Thanks for the further explanation.

caseopele · September 2007

Here's what I don't understand. LL tells tenant amount of new rent, tenant pays new rent but gets no new lease from LL. Shouldn't the tenant only be paying the old rent? The new rent only goes into effect when a new lease is signed. Right? Am I wrong about this?

bunnycup · September 2007

I see it as, when the old lease expired they made an agreement (verbally) to sign a new lease with the new rent. In the absence of a new lease, the agreement reverts to a month-to-month tenancy on the terms of the verbal agreement. That's under the NY Statute of Frauds as applied to transfers of real property.

I think what you're saying would be true if they hadn't agreed (verbally) to a new rent - the expired lease would then convert to a month-to-month tenancy on the terms of the expired lease.

I could TOTALLY be wrong here, or making too many assumptions about the facts, or be blinded by my own viewpoint so not seeing better logic. This is why I keep saying I am not giving legal advice here, and I'm not your lawyer, so you shouldn't rely on my advice.

dakotas way · September 2007

I think a key consideration here is if the landlord put the new rent in writing, and actually, to be official, should have sent it certified mail.
But either way, unofficially, it would depend on the relationship between the landlord and tenant as to what should be paid at this point. Sounds like you're a very fair tenant to have begun paying the higher amount with only a verbal notice.
If you've been a good tenant (which I'll guess you have) then she should allow you to move and return your security deposit except possibly deducting for cleaning of the apartment afterwards. She may also deduct if any repairs needed to be done on items that were in good repair when you moved in.

garfunky · September 2007

Suggest you more or less demand(as nicely as possible) written lease.
Without it you are now in a position where your LL can basically give your notice , whenever LL feels inclined.

Clearly its also leaving you confused about what youre legal obligations are.

Sometimes SMALL landlords actually dont know how to do this.
In cases where a broker has put together the initial lease,
often times these small LL's need the brokers assistance when the renewal time comes.

if you used a broker , that specific brokerage may be able to help you.

they are not obligated to, however.

best wishes

Question about leases

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