9/11 vs 9/11 truth movement

MichaelKeys wrote: [quote=SevenOneEighty]All I asked for was some evidence or proof of a conspiracy involving the FBI, CIA, Fire department, air traffic controllers, NYPD, the pentagon, the press, the 9/11 clean up workers, demolition companies, flight schools, and witnesses relatives....and the terrorist organizations taking credit..
C'mon, not one person leaked? Not ONE witness to any of this?
Not ONE? We have 2 leaks a week in our government and not ONE person as come forward with a memo? an email? a receipt?

I did leave open the possibility of government knowledge in the poll. And even I love a good conspiracy, but all I am saying is this one defies ALL logic and common sense.

This was the link on Maddox's site from a GOVERNMENT agency, National Institute of Standards and Technology - some pretty credible guys, I think... they mention studying if the buildings were detonated at the end. To date I don't think they have. These will all be dismissed, of course. (BTW: I''ve always found Maddox's humor to cut right to the point - and accurate even when being funny)

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

With the anniversary of 9/11 coming up, regardless of how you feel about Bush, Cheney, Iraq, etc. I still think it is so disrespectful and silly to accuse the federal government of mass murder of American citizens on 9/11 with no evidence? Don't you? For something like this, I just say you have to come to the plate strong and not weak or waffly. For me that day is still very real and I haven't forgotten it.

A small and simple request for such a "huge conspiracy" of murder and deceit. Not looking for a punching bag here and I am willing to go point by point - with no insults as I always have.

Cards?

Here’s the last thing I will say about the subject in this forum:

Like I stated in the very first line of my first post on the subject I DON’T HAVE ANY ANSWERS. As such, I have not come to a final decision as to how all of this came to pass. I’m not going to immediately believe the official story just because the govt said so, especially an admn so lacking in credibility such as this one. Nor am I going to take as gospel the conspiracy theories either, just because the people behind them oppose the govt or this admn in particular. I whole-heartedly agree with you that accusing the govt of mass-murder is irresponsible and disrespectful to the victims and their families. But I also believe that buying the official story wholesale without questioning it is also irresponsible and disrespectful to the victims and their families.

There’s plenty of information out there and a good chunk of it contradictory. So what does one do? You read/listen to experts on the subjects at hand. But if you are not versed in the subjects upon which their expertise is based, you have to take them at their word. Sadly, in these screwed up times, I’m taking NO ONE at their word. NO ONE. Not until I can figure out if the expert at hand is:

a) a govt flack;
b) a fringe loon;
or
c) a serious, competent professional regardless of political ideology.

If they happen to be a) or b), then no matter how brilliant they may appear to be I have to question their intent. It’s just that simple.

The people that have, one way or another, made up their mind on this subject have arrived at their destination. I’m still on the journey. Thus, I cannot engage in a debate with you or anyone else for that matter. To do so would be incredibly foolish on my part. Not to mention stupid. There are however, thousands of people online and elsewhere that disagree with you. Many of them say they have evidence and even proof of a massive conspiracy. They feel pretty confident, like you seem to, that they have all of the answers. Or at the very least, they've made up their minds. I suggest you heartily debate them, for they seem hungry for opposition. (I’m assuming none of them are on this site otherwise they’d be all over this. But you won't have any trouble finding them. Unless you're only interested in debating fellow Brooklynian posters...) It could be fun. Informative or enlightening? Probably not. But neither is boxing and people sure enjoy a slugfest.

The one interesting thing about this is that when you eliminate both those who believe the official story without a doubt as well as the conspiracy theorists, what you get is a bunch of people who, for whatever reasons, have plenty of doubts about these scenarios. If I had my mind made up—on either side of the subject—I’d like to know why these people haven’t made up theirs. Why isn’t it clear to them? (And some pretty level-headed, smart people are among their ranks.) That intrigues me. It might even turn out to be a great opportunity for us to learn more about each other and perhaps find ways to make this country a less divided one. ‘Cause we can’t go on like this much longer.

Yes,

I can't say I disagree with those assessments and I adhere to some of them already. I also think this discussion/ debate is completely appropriate to have here on Brooklynian (a discussion board) as much as any other many discussions that take place here about events in our neighborhood or new york in general. A healthy dose of skepticism is a good thing and it is impossible to know ALL of the facts surrounding 9/11 without any doubts. It is impossible to take any one version and as "this is the ultimate truth" nor was that my intent with regard to. I also believe this is a topic very worthy of discussion, period. I don't need to talk about it only with known theorists....?

Per the poll I created, there is room for "I don't know". Which is why I was puzzled by your initial responses. you seemed to be writing in to a discussion board about a topic that you did NOT want to have a discussion about... several times. ( BTW, I never called you any names). I would like to clarify my position here a little by separating 9/11 in to 2 separate realities/ possibilities, as a start:

1. The planning of the event(s) and their execution ("the who", etc.)
2. The event(s) themselves and physics ("the how" or the behavior of materials in our physical environment, based on independent, known scientific facts and calculations).

I think it is important to distinguish them because they can be two separate discussions, neither one proving or disproving the other completely. It is the very discussion of part 2 that 'some' have have used to somehow "prove" part 1, that I take issue with specifically - while still leaving room for "I don't know" in the "who" part of the discussion.

I'll start with 'part 2' and why it is important to recognize them.
There is no event in the history of mankind that comes close to being like 9/11. There has never been a case of that much heated steel, concrete, glass and debris falling at that speed in one place so quickly.

But in our world, there are certain laws of physics that one must adhere to, i.e, the melting/weakening temperature or steel, heat, gravity, etc. This things are calculated completely independent of the events of 9/11 specifically. The 'journey' has definitely ended on those items in the scientific community, and when one ignores them to 'prove' something else, you must question their motives and sanity.

It is also good to question the "official" story using your own reasoning based on known information. Again, I am a big skeptic and conspiracy theorist. So I must also fairly examine what it would take, at minimum, to pull off the "who" per the conspiracy theorist. I must take in to account past historical events and human behavior ( we cant keep a secret and screw up a lot) and even the competence of those being credited with this event as a conspiracy.

Then I must also make the assessment of which is more likely and possible based on known evidence and past historic events of human screw ups and lack of coordination (and let's be real, there IS physical evidence that exists, its not all imaginary or filled with infinite possibilities) and us cooberating facts. I cannot pretend they don't exist because I don't know "everything" about 9/11. It is logical and even imperative to make some assessments using proven known physics.

I think when we say we know nothing because we don't know everything, we do so at our own peril. I cannot live live completely philosophically (I am talking about the physics here). I must make decisions everyday for survival ( i.e., should I cross the street now, or wait for this car, moving at 25mph, to pass?). I'm sure your comments were based solely on 9/11. But IMO, I also base 9/11 on what I do know about the physical world I live in. And I do not separate it out of this known physical world because I don't know all the "who" facts of 9/11. That my beef, so to speak.

This is not 'The Matrix' or an Oliver Stone movie and proof cannot end in a question mark: ("So why wasn't 'xyz' done on that day...? See that proves 'abc'"). It is THAT type of illogical thought pattern that ignores minimal standards of sanity. My opinion is completely independent of politics, but is based more on human survival in general. I would make the assessment that you, and others more qualified than us, DO know something about the "how" of 9/11 based on your physical experiences here on this planet and so do other very qualified people operating independent of agenda. for example, I have not seen anyone yet who have proven the building were detonated from within - not one shred. Bodies were found in the wreckage, but no charges? Seriously, if you know of any, please let me know and I will absolutely read it.

Outside of the physics, the discussion is more complicated, but it is still possible to collect cooberating facts of that day and the events. For starters, the victims and their families (some received phone calls from the flights, the film of the passenger planes (not missiles) hitting the buildings). I can't pretend I don't know that or ignore it.

As I said before, I am always open for true discussion about this events and I think it should always be discussed independent of American political agenda - here on this board and anywhere else and not compartmentalized.

The last point I will make is that some opinions are definitely more credible than others; they are NOT all equal.

The 6th anniversary of 9/11 is this Tuesday.

sweet tea wrote: sadly, it comes down to this for me: i don't think our government could have pulled that off.

i DO think they could have known more if not all about it if they had managed to pay attention to, organize, and synthesize intelligence gathered before the fact. i do know one VERY angry ex-air force intell guy (arabic specialist) who feels that he and others reported information that got left sitting on desks, ignored, and turned out to be very pertinent.

the anthrax thing is where i'm willing to be a little more of a conspiracy theorist.

Yea, I am still wondering abut the anthrax too. They never made an arrest did they? Only "democrats" got packages too, right? But that is something that could be pulled off by a rouge person and may not require a government-wide conspiracy. It still bothers me and the trail just went cold.

And of course, the government had information on terrorists wanted to hurt the us, wasn't the name of the famous report from the previous summer "Bin Laden determined to attack in the US"? The WTC was attacked in 1993 by terrorists, the USS Cole was attacked and a host of other US interest around the world. The United States could be accused of being criminally NEGLIGENT in its behavior leading up to the 9/11 attacks. They did NOT listen to warnings by very credible sources and qualified people who DID KNOW something.

But negligence is very different from a coordinated conspiracy to detonate the towers....and it just sucks that so many people are so willing to let the terrorist organizations who DID do it off the hook. They are overjoyed about it also. There is a certain amount of "negligent denial", similar to the attitude before 9/11, that exists in this country about terrorism (which I fear might allow another attack to happen). I don't deny their are people who want us dead.

Regarding the insurance companies: It is their job to be "confused" and NOT KNOW about what happened. They are liars and do not want to pay the BILLIONS of dollars involved. Look at Spike Lee's documentary "When the Levees Broke, Part III" and the issue of insurance companies and what they are doing to people who paid in for decades. They are using the "we don't know anything" argument very well to their advantage.

Houses were standing in 8 feet of water and they are telling people, they "don't know" if the damage to their house was caused by the storm or the flood and therefore cannot pay out....My family experienced that first hand down there. Shameful and disgusting.