Brooklynian vs. Brooklyn Paper and Smartmom
Let the fur fly! From the self-proclaimed Perle Mesta [Google it] of the People's Republic of PS:
GERSH TAKES ON THE BROOKLYNIAN: YAY
According to the Brooklyn Paper, things have gotten realy REALLY NASTY on the Brooklynian, a Park Slope community blog and message board. Discussions of the new Seventh Avenue eatery, Elementi, hit new lows (and that's pretty low) when blog-posters began trashing the restaurant even before it opened. They were just pissed that Snooky's went out of business and decided to take it out on the people who were opening Elementi.
It's totally legitimate to be angry when a beloved local institution goes out of business. It's even legitimate for people to share their pain and loss on the Internet
But is it right to condemn the incoming restaurant even before it opens? Did people on the Brooklyniam message board go beyond the beyond?
Probably. But that's the nature of message boards.
Gersh Kuntzman, editor of the Brooklyn Paper, looked into the situation and even had dinner at the restaurant, which he enjoyed immensely. But that wasn't the point. He just wondered if it was fair to take out the closing of Snooky's on the new owners of Elementi.
I for one avoid the Brooklynian and think of it as a very toxic blog. Snarky and mean spirited, the Brooklynian is not where I want to spend my reading time. But hey, that's just me.
Full disclosure: People on
the Brooklynian love to trash Smartmom. Thick skin. Thick skin. I try not to take this kind of stuff too seriously. But this kind of thing can really ruin a restuarant.
http://onlytheblogknowsbrooklyn.typepad.com/
http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/30/35/30_35blogbattle.html
GERSH TAKES ON THE BROOKLYNIAN: YAY
According to the Brooklyn Paper, things have gotten realy REALLY NASTY on the Brooklynian, a Park Slope community blog and message board. Discussions of the new Seventh Avenue eatery, Elementi, hit new lows (and that's pretty low) when blog-posters began trashing the restaurant even before it opened. They were just pissed that Snooky's went out of business and decided to take it out on the people who were opening Elementi.
It's totally legitimate to be angry when a beloved local institution goes out of business. It's even legitimate for people to share their pain and loss on the Internet
But is it right to condemn the incoming restaurant even before it opens? Did people on the Brooklyniam message board go beyond the beyond?
Probably. But that's the nature of message boards.
Gersh Kuntzman, editor of the Brooklyn Paper, looked into the situation and even had dinner at the restaurant, which he enjoyed immensely. But that wasn't the point. He just wondered if it was fair to take out the closing of Snooky's on the new owners of Elementi.
I for one avoid the Brooklynian and think of it as a very toxic blog. Snarky and mean spirited, the Brooklynian is not where I want to spend my reading time. But hey, that's just me.
Full disclosure: People on
the Brooklynian love to trash Smartmom. Thick skin. Thick skin. I try not to take this kind of stuff too seriously. But this kind of thing can really ruin a restuarant.
http://onlytheblogknowsbrooklyn.typepad.com/
http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/30/35/30_35blogbattle.html
Comments
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For the umptagillionth time, this site IS NOT A BLOG! Get your Internet terminology right, people.
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oy.
i'm with caseopele on this one. she has a right to say what she wants and, frankly, if the new owners wanted to talk to anyone it should have been to her directly. they became assholes when they went to her boss. that behavior alone tells me where i'll eat dinner. sad, because i'd have tried eating there. but pulling this kind of shit? are we in the fifth grade? -
OMG! New Yorkers have strong opinions about a restaurant! Summon a constable immediately! Feelings could be hurt!
Sheesh. It's not like people made up stories about dead rats in the toilet or cooks spitting in the food. They just don't like the place.
And thanks to its "defenders," now I don't either. Attempts to discredit and/or silence critics are creepy and weird.
As for ruining the restaurant -- good god, if I only had a dime for every time I've seen someone trashing New Purity or Sette or Tutta Pasta or a dozen others. Meanwhile, they thrive on.
Buck up, kids. Sometimes people don't like what you have to offer. Sometimes it's not even your fault. Choke back your bitter tears and soldier on, or go into another business where you don't face the tragedy of not being loved by everyone all the time. -
its a god damn message board a forum. god i wish people would know the difference.
this type of message board been around since the beginning of t he net.
must have a small peen to pick a fight with a bunch of folks on a message board or bored.
edit: daily heights does have the blog of the messages boards as daily heights and daily slope blogs. oh wells maybe he is talking about that. -
long live caseopele!!!!!long live caseopele!!!!!long live caseopele!!!!!
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If you can't stand the heat, stay off teh internets!
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Holy crap. If you just take the article at face value, it borders on ridiculous. If you actually read the thread in question on Brooklynian, it is downright laughable. Ha. Haha! Pansy waists, them all.
Lots of stuff on Brooklynian isn't flowers and fluff, and a lot of it is downright BS. And everyone here knows it. Unfortunately, in this case, the only BS is what is being spread by The Restaurant Which Shall Not Be Named.
As I recall, the thread has already been redacted due to "the people who were opening Elementi" acting like a bunch of butthurt crocsters and contacting a Brooklynian poster's BOSS at their PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT. How bogus is that? Speak against our restaurant, and we will attempt to get you fired from your job. Bullshit to the nth degree. Fuck them. Twice even.
And if ya'll are still reading, contact me directly, and perhaps I'll give you my boss's direct phone line to complain about me. He will eat you for lunch. -
Here's what I posted on smartmom's site:
"Wow, I have to hand it to Gersh for leaving out a huge amount of information. Apparently, he didn't feel the need to write about all the other things I said. That wouldn't make the story good but it would have made it right. I guess a bunch of nasty barflies bashing a poor couple opening a new business for absolutely no reason sounds much better than the reality. I find it quite sad that Mr. Kuntzman chose to sacrifice his journalistic integrity for sensationalism. I would gladly produce the 9 emails that we exchanged, including the one where I asked to remain anonymous and to be notified when/if the article was published. He neglected to do both. Using my screen name (that is known to many people in PS) and can be used quite easily to identify me was a shameful attempt conceal my identity. Call me naive but I'm disappointed by this whole mess." -
If his intention was to get anybody to eat at Elementi, I can only say that it only solidifies my intent not to go there.
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If anyone wants to see the emails I exchanged with him then let me know. I don't want to further "besmirch" brooklynian's reputation by posting them all immediately. I'm not sure how to go about this but I want it known that Gersh left out alot to make his story sound better. Any ideas or suggestions?
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Sorry, don't have any advice for you. Well, any _good_ advice at least. But I don't need to see the emails to know that they are trying to give you the mega-shaft on this. I'm not sure exactly whom is in whose pocket here, but the level at which they continue to try to manipulate these things is truly astounding and scary. And my opinion of the Brooklyn Paper just dropped dramatically to go along with the restaurant in question. Sheesh.
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I just want to thank everyone for what you've posted, it really makes me feel better. I have no idea how I ended up being the ringleader in this whole mess. And Gersh should do some fact checking of his own, I don't even drink so how can I be a barfly?
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With all this animosity about nonsense who would think we are a country in war.
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imho, it's just a very silly version of the print media freak out at the advantages the internet has over it and the likelihood of the imminent collapse of a lot of paper.
"OMGOMG, teh internets are dangerous! they're not like us! we are much more better! (even though, in this case, we can barely be bothered to proofread) look away!"
i mean:and fury hath no greater ally than the Internet, where anyone, whether he’s a seasoned restaurant critic or just a pompous windbag, can spout off like an expert.
how much expertise is really required in this case? gersh complains that no one had actually eaten there yet, but the complaint wasn't about the food. (and the review of the master? the food was "kick-ass". what an afficianado.) -
caseopele, et alia, gersh writes for brooklyn papers. it's not the NYT, it's not even the NYpost. i mean, it's a nice little community newspaper but really that's all it is. if it makes him feel better about himself to trash people, then he's just some clueless hack.
(for the record, so it can't be said that i'm talking about things i know nothing about, i used to be a magazine editor. pretty high ranking, at that. an exec. ed. for a magazine at one of the major publishing houses. if one of my editors pulled this bullshit i'd fire him.) -
You know what? You guys are right. This whole thing is ridiculous and smacks of junior high. I've gotten wonderful support from you guys and pitu and veets. I don't care what anyone says, this board is not toxic. Sure there are a few people who like to cause trouble but that's true for anything! For the most part I've found people here to be great and your responses to this whole nonsense has proved it. Thanks guys, you are the best!
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The Brooklyn Paper is a total rag, and Gersh's column is nothing but pap. There's far more real information about the neighborhood on this site. It's hilarious that he lambasts Brooklynian for lack of fact-checking when he didn't even manage to get the name of the site right. The Brooklynian? Please. Almost as lame as the Smartmom.
EDIT: It was actually Smartmom, not Gersh who kept calling the site "The Brooklynian." -
It's unfortunate that Gersh apparently went into this with his mind made up about how he was going to cover it. It's also unfortunate that he didn't give any deeper thought to why Snooky's shut down, such as the rising rents in the area or other economic factors. It's unfortunate that he decided to automatically dismiss everyone who had affection for a longtime neighborhood establishment as "barflies."
It's unfortunate that the owners of Elementi handled this so badly, when the better options would have been to ignore it or join the conversation, which I think would have gone a long way in making folks feel better about their business, if they'd done so calmly and in a friendly fashion. We've certainly seen this happen before with business owners who have joined discussions here and made people feel like their concerns were being heard. To be fair, I can certainly understand why they'd be concerned about some of the things that were being written here, and I think it's not completely fair that so many people were saying bad things about the place without having even tried it. Such is the nature of the Internet and online message boards, however, and there are positive ways one can deal with stuff like this, if one refrains from freaking out and acting cluelessly.
It's unfortunate that posting personal information on the Internet can sometimes come back to haunt you in unexpected ways, but that's hardly unique to Brooklynian. Not that I don't have sympathy for what happened to Caseopele, mind you -- from everything I've seen here she's a lovely person. But this is a good reminder that there are risks to posting information that can lead people to figure out who you are offline.
It's unfortunate that Smartmom and Gersh don't know that this site isn't just a blog but also includes a much larger message board. It's also unfortunate that they think it's called "the Brooklynian."
It's unfortunate that because there have been a few threads here in which some people expressed their dislike for Smartmom's blog and her column, she and Gersh have written the whole site off completely, ignoring the many positive things about Brooklynian like its contributions to helping people find foster and permanent homes for abandoned pets, the way that users often help each other out with information about neighborhood resources and information, the support people here have provided to others who are going through hard times, or the real-life friendships and connections many people have made through this site.
It's unfortunate that some people have taken it upon themselves to post nasty comments on Smartmom's blog in response to her post about this. While we may never win Smartmom over and many of you may not care to, she does have a lot of readers, and this is hardly the way to persuade any of them that we're not the "toxic blog" she thinks we are. -
Carnivore wrote: The Brooklyn Paper is a total rag, and Gersh's column is nothing but pap. There's far more real information about the neighborhood on this site. It's hilarious that he lambasts Brooklynian for lack of fact-checking when he didn't even manage to get the name of the site right. The Brooklynian? Please. Almost as lame as the Smartmom.
uh oh... lol. i have this habit of doing this: the duane reade, the target, the c-town, etc. however, i don't do it in my formal writing. :roll:
EDIT: It was actually Smartmom, not Gersh who kept calling the site "The Brooklynian." -
apollonia666 wrote: It's unfortunate that some people have taken it upon themselves to post nasty comments on Smartmom's blog in response to her post about this. While we may never win Smartmom over and many of you may not care to, she does have a lot of readers, and this is hardly the way to persuade any of them that we're not the "toxic blog" she thinks we are.
I agree that posting personal attacks on her blog doesn't help us, but it's totally ok to post an actual response to what she said. I just did, and I stand by my comment. -
I still find it kind of curious that the statement below was published in the aftermath of the "elementi" thread and even curiouser after I posted a response to another unrelated post that I thought it was time to end that particular discussion because the comments could be considered slanderous (not the elementi thread). Just saying is all - is this not all in some way connected?
* Policy on Businesses and People Discussed on Brooklynian: Opinions expressed on Brooklynian.com are solely those of the people who write them, NOT the owner, administrators, or moderators of the site. Brooklynian.com has no control over the truth, accuracy, quality, or legality of postings made by users. Because verifying the identity of a user on the Internet is difficult, Brooklynian.com cannot and does not confirm the identity of users.
Brooklynian.com is not legally responsible for any remarks, information or other content posted or made available on its site by any user or third party. Brooklynian.com is not responsible for accuracy or reliability, and does not monitor or censor content for accuracy or reliability. However, Brooklynian.com reserves the right to remove or restrict access to any information or content posted or made available on its site by its users or any third party if Brooklynian.com considers such information or content to be in violation of its site rules, which can be viewed here:
http://www.brooklynian.com/for.....php?t=3319
Sometimes we hear from people who don't like negative opinions that people write about them or their businesses here. We advise that you develop a thick skin and learn to accept (and learn from!) what people say about you, whether it's at the laundromat, on the street corner, or on a neighborhood message board. If you don't like something someone says here about you or your business, the best thing to do is register for the site, join the conversation, and explain your side of things (note: if you are going to post about something you have a business interest in, you MUST disclose that in your post; please see the section on shilling in our site rules for more information on why this is important).
If you have any questions, please contact [email protected]. -
Carnivore wrote: [quote=apollonia666]It's unfortunate that some people have taken it upon themselves to post nasty comments on Smartmom's blog in response to her post about this. While we may never win Smartmom over and many of you may not care to, she does have a lot of readers, and this is hardly the way to persuade any of them that we're not the "toxic blog" she thinks we are.
I agree that posting personal attacks on her blog doesn't help us, but it's totally ok to post an actual response to what she said. I just did, and I stand by my comment.
As you should. I didn't say people shouldn't respond. I hope it was clear enough that I was limiting what I was saying to the nasty comments over on her blog. -
Livetotravel wrote: I still find it kind of curious that the statement below was published in the aftermath of the "elementi" thread and even curiouser after I posted a response to another unrelated post that I thought it was time to end that particular discussion because the comments could be considered slanderous (not the elementi thread). Just saying is all - is this not all in some way connected?
(After which livetotravel posted the policy on businesses and people discussed on Brooklynian -- I'm taking it out here for brevity, but if you want to see it again it's part of the site rules which you can find by clicking on the "THE RULES" link at the top of every page of the site.)
The whole Elementi thing isn't the first time we've had controversy here over negative stuff people have posted about a business or an individual, but it and some other threads over the past few months did make the mods and admins realize that maybe it was time to come up with some sort of "official" policy about this stuff. We tried to make it as fair as possible. That's all there is to it. -
And I, for one, applaud you and the others for doing it.
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Livetotravel wrote: And I, for one, applaud you and the others for doing it.
Thank you.
I know I already sort of said this, but I just want to make it clear to everyone that what happened with the Elementi thread wasn't the only reason for the new policy, so it wouldn't be fair to blame any one person or business for the situation. We've had several instances of people not liking things that were said about them or their businesses and not understanding the nature of Internet message boards or the fact that we have no control over or legal liability for what individual posters say here, and decided it might cut down on future headaches to put that up somewhere on the site.
That said, I do hope folks realize that when you're saying things about a business here you may have a certain amount of influence on others' opinions about those businesses, and the owners are real people who have their livelihoods and reputations at stake. I think most of us want to see local businesses do well in most circumstances. Constructive criticism that might help them improve what you're unhappy with is usually a better way to go. -
just remember you guys all suck
. didn't we have a same thread a while back? -
caseopele wrote: I just want to thank everyone for what you've posted, it really makes me feel better. I have no idea how I ended up being the ringleader in this whole mess. And Gersh should do some fact checking of his own, I don't even drink so how can I be a barfly?
Actually, the term he used was "gadfly", which means "a person who persistently annoys or provokes others with criticism, schemes, ideas, demands, requests, etc." according to Random House Dictionary. It has nothing to do with drinking.
FWIW, a barfly is defined as "a person who frequents barrooms.", according to the same source.
I don't know you, and I have no opinion on this. Just pointing out the correction. -
bklyngirl wrote: [quote=caseopele]I just want to thank everyone for what you've posted, it really makes me feel better. I have no idea how I ended up being the ringleader in this whole mess. And Gersh should do some fact checking of his own, I don't even drink so how can I be a barfly?
Actually, the term he used was "gadfly", which means "a person who persistently annoys or provokes others with criticism, schemes, ideas, demands, requests, etc." according to Random House Dictionary. It has nothing to do with drinking.
FWIW, a barfly is defined as "a person who frequents barrooms.", according to the same source.
I don't know you, and I have no opinion on this. Just pointing out the correction.
But there IS a line in the column -- 6th paragraph -- where he refers to "the Snooky’s Barflies" right before quoting Caseopele (and that next paragraph is where he also calls her a gadfly). So he did call her a barfly too. -
And, I also never frequented Snooky's. I ordered takeout from them about once a month (sometimes more) but never actually ate there. Here's a direct quote:
"Even before the Rutledges hanged the Elementi sign, the Revenge of the Snooky’s Barflies began.
“I heard a rumor that she said she doesn’t want any of the Snooky’s crowd in her restaurant,†wrote an online gadfly named Caseopele on the message board Brooklynian."
Meanwhile Gersh is trying to tell me he never called me a barfly and that gadfly isn't an insult. Of course it isn't, my pet name for my mother is gadfly! -
caseopele wrote: And, I also never frequented Snooky's. I ordered takeout from them about once a month (sometimes more) but never actually ate there. Here's a direct quote:
Just curious - why is this so important to you? Particularly when your sig is a lovely quote denouncing censorship?
"Even before the Rutledges hanged the Elementi sign, the Revenge of the Snooky’s Barflies began.
“I heard a rumor that she said she doesn’t want any of the Snooky’s crowd in her restaurant,†wrote an online gadfly named Caseopele on the message board Brooklynian."
Meanwhile Gersh is trying to tell me he never called me a barfly and that gadfly isn't an insult. Of course it isn't, my pet name for my mother is gadfly!
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