How would you interpret this question?
Comments
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doublediamond wrote: I'm stuck on people actually wanting to touch someone else's hair. The whole idea of touching someone else's hair kinda grosses me out unless that person was a friend or a partner. And, only a hairstylist should touch a stranger's hair!
Sooo strange. I've heard this comment before from black women, but have never seen a person ask or do this. A child wanting to touch someone's hair is one thing, but an adult? That's just ... ewww.
You're right, actually. I'm not sure I'd want to put my hand in a stranger's hair. I mean, think back to those blaxploitation flicks, Foxy Brown and Coffy: Pam Grier had razor blades and even a gun inside her afro. You never know what you might find!
The most ridiculous hair-related experience I had though was when I was a kid, maybe 6 or 7, at school in England. On our sports day we had this thing called a Bean Bag race where you had to run and I think maybe crawl as well, while balancing a bean bag on your head. I always won. One of the white parents said that I should be disqualified from the race because the fact that the bean bag didn't slip off my hair gave me an unfair advantage. She was really pissed! The teacher was like: its just supposed to be a bit of fun, its not the Olympics. -
The guy was probably just trying too hard (and failing miserably) to prove that he was a cool white guy, mindful of issues (he imagines) non-white people go through.
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Subject: !
Anonymous wrote: The guy was probably just trying too hard (and failing miserably) to prove that he was a cool white guy, mindful of issues (he imagines) non-white people go through.
This is precisely what's so annoying about the guy. In fact he wasn't mindful at all, and the "He's just curious" line is not a defense. Lots of times I've been just curious to know if someone I knew was gay, but I've refrained from asking them since it's their business, and I wasn't good friends with them. Also, not that many people like the, "You're different from the people around you, how does that make you feel?" question, since it puts them on the spot.
Even worse was the fact that this guy was hoping to "relate", even though he himself is white. What, was he hoping she would say, "I hate it, PS white people are so awful," to which he would have said, what, "Yeah, no doubt, sister."???? Loser. On top of all that, this was a pickup line? I can't even conceive of how a line like that would work.
Damn, as a white guy I'm particularly irritated by this kind of schmuck-o behavior, since it's guys like this who give my people a bad name!! :twisted: It's bad enough that I have to overcome the dorky-frat-boy-who-eats-mayonnaise-sandwiches-and-has-no-rhythm stereotype, now I have to overcome the i-can't-see-past-the-color-of-your-skin-but-i'm-hoping-you-won't-notice-mine types as well. Hey man, get a clue, if not for yourself, then for the rest of us!!! :x :roll: -
Subject: Re: !
escap wrote:
That made me laugh so hard I nearly cried.
Even worse was the fact that this guy was hoping to "relate", even though he himself is white. What, was he hoping she would say, "I hate it, PS white people are so awful," to which he would have said, what, "Yeah, no doubt, sister."????
But maybe some people are so crazy that they actually do have conversations like that
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Subject: Re: !
Anonymous wrote: i-can't-see-past-the-color-of-your-skin-but-i'm-hoping-you-won't-notice-mine
perfect description!!
that's akin to how i often feel when very "sensitive" strangers ask me about whether i plan to get married, whether i want kids, whether i would get pregnant or the gf would....um, asking me questions about how i plan to use my uterus is a little weird if i don't know you. and those other questions are pretty loaded too -- not only are you asking for my political views, but most straight people don't love being needled about when they're going to get married or have kids, so why would i want to discuss it with someone i don't know, just because the issue is in the news and you think you understand what i'm going through?
exceptions are made for clearly baby-crazy middle-aged ladies, the sort who barrage everyone with demands of that sort.
exceptions are available on a case-by-case basis for straight women who are transparently freaking out about their own answers to the same questions.
Edit: just to be clear, i'm not single, just gay -
Precious wrote: There actually aren't as many differences as questions like that man's would imply. I actually think the reverse of what you suggested is going on today: people seem OBSESSED with race and talk talk talk about it non-stop. And also there isn't any singular black experience, or white experience, for that matter. So, what you really need to do is get to know individuals rather than stereotypes. Thus, the man's question should surely have been phrased, "what do you think of Park Slope?" .
well I am speaking as a white women but... maybe it is because you weren't raised in the US? I think race is a big deal here. And race and class are tied in this country and that IS BECAUSE OF RACISM. Acting like it doesn't exist isn't going to make it go away. I am just thinking that your experience isn't the same as someone raised here. And British accents open doors in New York--a lot of Americans are sycophants to the accent. The guy sounds like a jerk--but Park Slope is becoming more and more of a homogenized neighborhood and I don't think it is a racist thought he was having but maybe like what was said above--akin to asking a single woman if she wants children. Just nosy. -
kensingtonmom wrote: [quote=Precious]There actually aren't as many differences as questions like that man's would imply. I actually think the reverse of what you suggested is going on today: people seem OBSESSED with race and talk talk talk about it non-stop. And also there isn't any singular black experience, or white experience, for that matter. So, what you really need to do is get to know individuals rather than stereotypes. Thus, the man's question should surely have been phrased, "what do you think of Park Slope?" .
well I am speaking as a white women but... maybe it is because you weren't raised in the US? I think race is a big deal here. And race and class are tied in this country and that IS BECAUSE OF RACISM. Acting like it doesn't exist isn't going to make it go away. I am just thinking that your experience isn't the same as someone raised here. And British accents open doors in New York--a lot of Americans are sycophants to the accent. The guy sounds like a jerk--but Park Slope is becoming more and more of a homogenized neighborhood and I don't think it is a racist thought he was having but maybe like what was said above--akin to asking a single woman if she wants children. Just nosy.
I still disagree. I have a lot of African American friends and they have a vast array of life experiences, not just one singular "black" experience. Those friends and I talk about this all the time: the assumption from so many people that, because we are black, we must either live in the projects or grown up in the projects or are the first generation in our family to go to college etc or must somehow feel awestruck by our own "success".
Despite racism having resulted in a disproportionate number of black Americans living in poverty, there actually are a lot of middle class and upper class African-Americans too. And some of them actually live in Park Slope. I consider it racist to assume that black skin =disadvantaged=living in an upper-middle-class neighborhood being some kind of "issue" -
Precious wrote: I still disagree. I have a lot of African American friends and they have a vast array of life experiences, not just one singular "black" experience. Those friends and I talk about this all the time: the assumption from so many people that, because we are black, we must either live in the projects or grown up in the projects or are the first generation in our family to go to college etc or must somehow feel awestruck by our own "success".
Perhaps the stereotypes that are promoted in current popular music have an effect on people's perceptions?
Despite racism having resulted in a disproportionate number of black Americans living in poverty, there actually are a lot of middle class and upper class African-Americans too. And some of them actually live in Park Slope. I consider it racist to assume that black skin =disadvantaged=living in an upper-middle-class neighborhood being some kind of "issue" -
Precious wrote: Despite racism having resulted in a disproportionate number of black Americans living in poverty, there actually are a lot of middle class and upper class African-Americans too. And some of them actually live in Park Slope. I consider it racist to assume that black skin =disadvantaged=living in an upper-middle-class neighborhood being some kind of "issue"
Of course there are a variety of experiences and I don't think anyone is pigeon-holing that there is one way to be African American in America, or all African Americans are one class--that is not what I am saying obviously. But being that you are British, I think your experience is as far away from an African AMERICAN woman's experience as mine is. I think it is a unique kind of prejudice (as I suppose each kind of prejudice is). And you may have experienced or not experienced racism in England--but our racism is based on slavery and segregation and other ugly parts of our history.
And although his question was rude, I don't think it was that crazy. My sister who is struggling financially, and single and childless no longer feels comfortable in the slope. She has lived there for 20 years or so and has seen the big change. I can imagine someone asking her--huh, how do you like living in Park Slope as a single, lower middle class childless person?
I think we had this debate didn't we when you were Princess or something a few months ago?? -
cythren wrote: [quote=Precious] I still disagree. I have a lot of African American friends and they have a vast array of life experiences, not just one singular "black" experience. Those friends and I talk about this all the time: the assumption from so many people that, because we are black, we must either live in the projects or grown up in the projects or are the first generation in our family to go to college etc or must somehow feel awestruck by our own "success".
Perhaps the stereotypes that are promoted in current popular music have an effect on people's perceptions?
Despite racism having resulted in a disproportionate number of black Americans living in poverty, there actually are a lot of middle class and upper class African-Americans too. And some of them actually live in Park Slope. I consider it racist to assume that black skin =disadvantaged=living in an upper-middle-class neighborhood being some kind of "issue"
Yes, I think so. Also (with the exception of the Cosby Show) there wasn't all that much representation on TV and especially in movies, of African-Americans who WEREN'T involved in selling or using crack, prostitution, drive-bys and baby mama drama - until fairly recently. Waiting to Exhale was one of the first movies I saw that depicted people who were relatable to me. And, not a single drive-by or crack-head in sight! -
kensingtonmom wrote:
I don't get your theory. I'm a black woman IN America. Unless I am actually speaking (as opposed to walking into a store or other establishment or merely walking down the street), I don't see how anybody could detect that I am English and not American, Caribbean, African. Also, surely a racist is a racist. If somebody hates blacks, is it really likely that that person would despise all black American yet yet have a soft spot for black people who hail from England? It seems unlikely. I suppose its possible if somebody was a racist AND a hardcore Anglophile all rolled into one.
Of course there are a variety of experiences and I don't think anyone is pigeon-holing that there is one way to be African American in America, or all African Americans are one class--that is not what I am saying obviously. But being that you are British, I think your experience is as far away from an African AMERICAN woman's experience as mine iskensingtonmom wrote: And although his question was rude, I don't think it was that crazy. My sister who is struggling financially, and single and childless no longer feels comfortable in the slope. She has lived there for 20 years or so and has seen the big change. I can imagine someone asking her--huh, how do you like living in Park Slope as a single, lower middle class childless person?
I would find that scenario weird and intrusive also. Maybe its because I'm English. It just seems totally inappropriate to be up in somebody's face within seconds of meeting them about their childlessness, their income or their "racial experiences." What's wrong with normal ice-break conversation like "how do you know so-and-so?" or "those are pretty earrings"? -
I'd just add that I, and all the other artists and creative types I know discuss the high cost of rents constantly, with everyone. It's almost a reflex. It is because it has had such a strong effect on all of us and our community. If I were a writer at a party with other writers, I might be likely to ask another person how they feel about the cost of living in Park Slope, although probably not unless I had some sense of their own situation.
Then again, I know of a few creative types who get financial support from family (although they may not know that I know). With someone like that, I might, under certain conditions, ask how they handle the cost of living in an expensive neighborhood - as a little passive-agressive dig. Ha. -
Precious Williams wrote: [I don't get your theory. I'm a black woman IN America.D
I guess I think that skin color doesn't automatically unite and give a common experience. It seems that someone who is from a family who emigrated is going to have a different experience from someone whose ancestors were torn from their culture. -
Precious Williams wrote: Also, surely a racist is a racist. If somebody hates blacks, is it really likely that that person would despise all black American yet yet have a soft spot for black people who hail from England? It seems unlikely. I suppose its possible if somebody was a racist AND a hardcore Anglophile all rolled into one.
On the other hand, if someone isn't a racist, they might still have different preconceptions about a black person's likely socioeconomic status based on their origin/accent, just as they would for other races or ethnicities. There are after all differences in median income between American vs. Carribean vs. African or 1st-world born.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/01/nyregion/01census.html -
doctorj wrote: [quote=Precious Williams]Also, surely a racist is a racist. If somebody hates blacks, is it really likely that that person would despise all black American yet yet have a soft spot for black people who hail from England? It seems unlikely. I suppose its possible if somebody was a racist AND a hardcore Anglophile all rolled into one.
On the other hand, if someone isn't a racist, they might still have different preconceptions about a black person's likely socioeconomic status based on their origin/accent, just as they would for other races or ethnicities. There are after all differences in median income between American vs. Carribean vs. African or 1st-world born.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/01/nyregion/01census.html
I read that article in the paper, and thought it was great. But at the same time, sad. It would have been nice if it was actual African Americans rather than mainly Caribbean immigrants, doing so well. I do think that certain immigrants *are* more aggressive in pursuing their goals, as the article says. In England I know from personal experience that African and Indian immigrant parents especially really really push their children. You're virtually forced to go to Oxford or Cambridge or other top universities. If you don't get into one of the top universities I think you're considered a huge disappointment to your family. There's also an obsession among such families to encourage all offspring to become either a doctor, lawyer or engineer. Obviously most people want to please their parents on some level, so they end up doing all of these things and thus becoming "successful". Actually, although I've had succcess as a writer, members of my family still periodically remind me that its not too late to go back to school and become a lawyer. When I worked at the London Times, after I had been there about six months, my family wanted to know how long before I'd be made editor-in-chief (I was a feature writer). With family like that, its almost hard not to become a success of some kind. -
kensingtonmom wrote: [quote=Precious Williams][I don't get your theory. I'm a black woman IN America.D
I guess I think that skin color doesn't automatically unite and give a common experience. It seems that someone who is from a family who emigrated is going to have a different experience from someone whose ancestors were torn from their culture.
I actually agree with you. But then it cannot be called racism. Racism is hatred/intolerance of another race. I am of the same race as African Americans. So I think this has more to do with, perhaps, class-ism and racial stereotyping. -
kensingtonmom wrote: [quote=Precious Williams][I don't get your theory. I'm a black woman IN America.D
I guess I think that skin color doesn't automatically unite and give a common experience. It seems that someone who is from a family who emigrated is going to have a different experience from someone whose ancestors were torn from their culture.
True. -
kensingtonmom wrote: And although his question was rude, I don't think it was that crazy. My sister who is struggling financially, and single and childless no longer feels comfortable in the slope. She has lived there for 20 years or so and has seen the big change. I can imagine someone asking her--huh, how do you like living in Park Slope as a single, lower middle class childless person?
This reminds me of when the guy in Freakonomics was sent to Cabrini Greens to ask people how they feel about being poor and black? How do you think they feel? And how do you think they feel about an outsider coming into their home and asking that sort of question? Why not just ask the real question here instead of tap dancing around it?
I rather like living in PS as a single, lower middle class childless person, but if a stranger ever asked me such a question I would kick thier ass all the way to Conneticut Muffin and run them over with a stroller. Since when did it become okay for an almost-stranger to be that rude and intrusive? -
erikka wrote: [quote=kensingtonmom]And although his question was rude, I don't think it was that crazy. My sister who is struggling financially, and single and childless no longer feels comfortable in the slope. She has lived there for 20 years or so and has seen the big change. I can imagine someone asking her--huh, how do you like living in Park Slope as a single, lower middle class childless person?
Like when the guy in Freakonomics was sent to Cabrini Greens to ask people how they feel about being poor and black? How do you think they feel? Why not just ask the real question here instead of tap dancing around it?
And I rather like living in PS as a single, lower middle class childless person, but if someone ever asked me such a question I would kick thier ass all the way to Conneticut Muffin and run them over with a stroller. Since when did it become okay for an almost-stranger to be that rude?
LOL, Erikka. I met a German (white) woman at a seminar about Indian food at the Open Center. She worked at a project for black men who are HIV+. She said that life is so hard being a black man in America that they actually LIKED being HIV+ because it meant that they had a sense of community and were eligible for various benefits. She did not say this in spiteful tone: she genuinely believed it. I asked her whether she really believed that ALL black men had such hopeless lives that being HIV+ was a step up and she said, yes. When I pointed out that the men in my family did not feel that way, she said, "ahhh, but its different for you: you're English." :shock: -
I asked her whether she really believed that ALL black men had such hopeless lives that being HIV+ was a step up and she said, yes.
No. Either she misunderstood your question, or you misunderstood her reply.She said that life is so hard being a black man in America that they actually LIKED being HIV+ because it meant that they had a sense of community and were eligible for various benefits.
Nobody would choose to be HIV+, but once you're there, it seems absolutely reasonable that you would appreciate positive support systems that create community and identity. The benefits probably aren't too bad, either.
What is your personal experience with black HIV+ men in America, and how they feel about social services? -
dailyheights wrote:
Dailyheights, I do not know any men - black or of any race - who are (to my knowledge) HIV+. Why? What is your own "personal experience with black HIV+ men in America?" and what do you personally know about "how they feel about social services?"I asked her whether she really believed that ALL black men had such hopeless lives that being HIV+ was a step up and she said, yes.
No. Either she misunderstood your question, or you misunderstood her reply.She said that life is so hard being a black man in America that they actually LIKED being HIV+ because it meant that they had a sense of community and were eligible for various benefits.
Nobody would choose to be HIV+, but once you're there, it seems absolutely reasonable that you would appreciate positive support systems that create community and identity. The benefits probably aren't too bad, either.
What is your personal experience with black HIV+ men in America, and how they feel about social services?
And yes, this woman did state that life for black men in general is so hard in America that they are BETTER OFF being HIV+ and that they think so themselves. And no, I am not hard of hearing. -
I'm confused - PW, was it you who posted that? It's showing up as a Guest post.
I'm just saying that I doubt anyone sane would agree to such a gross generalization: "ALL black men have such hopeless lives that being HIV+ is a step up"
Since your hearing is not impaired, it seems highly likely that she misunderstood your question. -
dailyheights wrote: I'm confused - PW, was it you who posted that? It's showing up as a Guest post.
Yes, I don't know why it came up as a Guest post. The German woman actually did say that. She IS German, so maybe there was a slight issue with language. But why would she have said, "its different for you, you're English" if her previous statement had not been a gross generalization? It is likely, in my opinion, that her ONLY experience with black men has been with HIV+ men in very low-income neighborhoods. In that context her statement is, I suppose, not that surprising. She migrated here from Germany about two years or so ago, if I remember correctly.
I'm just saying that I doubt anyone sane would agree to such a gross generalization: "ALL black men have such hopeless lives that being HIV+ is a step up"
Since your hearing is not impaired, it seems highly likely that she misunderstood your question. -
OK... I won't argue with your recollection of the facts. 8)
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dailyheights wrote:
I'm just saying that I doubt anyone sane would agree to such a gross generalization: "ALL black men have such hopeless lives that being HIV+ is a step up"
When you consider that Barbara Bush said something very similar about victims of hurricane Katrina, is a statement like this so hard to believe?
"What I'm hearing which is sort of scary is that they all want to stay in Texas. Everybody is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway so this (chuckle) – this is working very well for them." - Barbara Bush -
ana.log wrote: [quote=dailyheights]
I'm just saying that I doubt anyone sane would agree to such a gross generalization: "ALL black men have such hopeless lives that being HIV+ is a step up"
When you consider that Barbara Bush said something very similar about victims of hurricane Katrina, is a statement like this so hard to believe?
"What I'm hearing which is sort of scary is that they all want to stay in Texas. Everybody is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway so this (chuckle) – this is working very well for them." - Barbara Bush
:?
Wow. -
Precious Williams wrote: But why would she have said, "its different for you, you're English" if her previous statement had not been a gross generalization? It is likely, in my opinion, that her ONLY experience with black men has been with HIV+ men in very low-income neighborhoods. In that context her statement is, I suppose, not that surprising. She migrated here from Germany about two years or so ago, if I remember correctly.
Yup. The prejudices you form rather depend on what you've been exposed to. Not many people of African heritage in Northern Europe, other than a slow trickle of refugees from various civil wars. The first decades of my life, I only met two kinds of Africans: my middle to upper-middle class black friends and peer-group who mostly traced back to British colonies, and some of my students taking an education in the West who were rich, presumably African royalty, and tended to be among the more disruptive. Coming from a rich country where there is little visible poverty to a richer country where there is a lot and most of it looks black is a real shock, and I can see where her thinking comes from. -
doctorj wrote: [quote=Precious Williams]But why would she have said, "its different for you, you're English" if her previous statement had not been a gross generalization? It is likely, in my opinion, that her ONLY experience with black men has been with HIV+ men in very low-income neighborhoods. In that context her statement is, I suppose, not that surprising. She migrated here from Germany about two years or so ago, if I remember correctly.
Yup. The prejudices you form rather depend on what you've been exposed to. Not many people of African heritage in Northern Europe, other than a slow trickle of refugees from various civil wars. The first decades of my life, I only met two kinds of Africans: my middle to upper-middle class black friends and peer-group who mostly traced back to British colonies, and some of my students taking an education in the West who were rich, presumably African royalty, and tended to be among the more disruptive. Coming from a rich country where there is little visible poverty to a richer country where there is a lot and most of it looks black is a real shock, and I can see where her thinking comes from.
Where did you grow up?
And I've had some very amusing experiences while ski-ing in a remote German village when I was a teenager. I encountered many people who had actually never seen a person of color in the flesh before (the closest they had come were some local Turkish immigrants) and they were confused by the fact that I actually spoke German too. People were generally very friendly to me but I was a shy kid and I didn't really enjoy being asked so many questions and being looked at so much. -
Subject: Re: !
You're doing the same thing as this guy trying to be the cool understandable pc white guy. Don't lump all white males or "your people" into one asinine category.
Personally it sounds like a reasonable albeit a rude, to ask upon meeting someone for the first time, question. Everybody is tripping over themselves these days to be so PC. You could have responded with A) I think that is a rather personal question.
Well, things are going great with two book contracts, how about yourself. C) Yes, sadly there are people who probably can't see past my skin color but thank goodness not those who gave me a book contract.
I'm sure all of us here have been asked a rude, personal, stupid question.
How old are you, how much do you make, when are you getting married/having kids. Etc. No need to make a federal issue out of it.escap wrote: [quote=Anonymous]The guy was probably just trying too hard (and failing miserably) to prove that he was a cool white guy, mindful of issues (he imagines) non-white people go through.
This is precisely what's so annoying about the guy. In fact he wasn't mindful at all, and the "He's just curious" line is not a defense. Lots of times I've been just curious to know if someone I knew was gay, but I've refrained from asking them since it's their business, and I wasn't good friends with them. Also, not that many people like the, "You're different from the people around you, how does that make you feel?" question, since it puts them on the spot.
Even worse was the fact that this guy was hoping to "relate", even though he himself is white. What, was he hoping she would say, "I hate it, PS white people are so awful," to which he would have said, what, "Yeah, no doubt, sister."???? Loser. On top of all that, this was a pickup line? I can't even conceive of how a line like that would work.
Damn, as a white guy I'm particularly irritated by this kind of schmuck-o behavior, since it's guys like this who give my people a bad name!! :twisted: It's bad enough that I have to overcome the dorky-frat-boy-who-eats-mayonnaise-sandwiches-and-has-no-rhythm stereotype, now I have to overcome the i-can't-see-past-the-color-of-your-skin-but-i'm-hoping-you-won't-notice-mine types as well. Hey man, get a clue, if not for yourself, then for the rest of us!!! :x :roll: -
"You think the Republican National Committee could get this many people of color in a single room? Only if they had the hotel staff in here." -Howard Dean
ana.log wrote: [quote=dailyheights]
I'm just saying that I doubt anyone sane would agree to such a gross generalization: "ALL black men have such hopeless lives that being HIV+ is a step up"
When you consider that Barbara Bush said something very similar about victims of hurricane Katrina, is a statement like this so hard to believe?
"What I'm hearing which is sort of scary is that they all want to stay in Texas. Everybody is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway so this (chuckle) – this is working very well for them." - Barbara Bush
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