Why are whites moving into the HOOD?

guru wrote: Allegations of some Corcoran brokers steering Blacks and White prospective buyers hither thither - of course means that every Black person who’s ever purchased a home has been steered away from where they wanted to live.



You didn't see the article about brokers steering the couples last year to certain houses; a black couple with higher income and perfect credit was shown houses in lesser areas than a white couple with low income and poor credit. You are extremely defensive of your race and very sensitive and that is disturbing, speak for yourself or you might be defending some real creeps. You are not all white people and you are not a rich or entitled white person so you do not have a clue.

As I stated earlier - SO? And I don't mean so, as in its not a despicable and stupid thing for those brokers to have done and a frustrating waste of time for that qualified Black buyer(s).

But SO as in - do you believe that every broker in America is trying to keep Black people out nabes they want to live in? I don't believe that.

And the action of those jerk brokers actions mean that new people shouldnt move into this nabe, how?

How am I defensive of my race (I'm Dominican by the way - a Black Latino in my case)? Where in any of my posts have I given the impression that I have defended or excused any scandalous/poor behavior from anyone? Most of my rants are to the effect that assholes are assholes - regardless of their background - but that their behavor is no excuse for me to turn around and do dirt and be an asshole myself. Excuse me if I was unclear.

I apologize to the moderators and the board if I got a little heated and uncivil in this thread. I felt myself getting that way, but I thought I had managed to rein enough of it in so that my post wasn't too insulting or derisive. Apologies again if I failed at that as well.

I may hold off commenting on these threads in the futre because I feel that it's sort of like trying to argue someone out of their religious convictions. Past a certain point most people are set in their ways and mindsets and there's not much that can be done. It's as if there are two schools of thought on race/racism/class in America.

Having a pretty good grasp of history and knowing the systems and machinations that were set in place to keep people of color and immigrants and especially Black people out of the mainstream in this country - at the end of the day I believe that its up to me and me alone to do better and be decent.

I understand that people and institutions may hate me because of how I look (and this was certainly the case historically), but I can't use that as an excuse not to do right. Or blame that hatred on the reason that I can't accomplish/acquire something I want. Those things are roadblocks and waste of time and energy, but that just means I have to go around them and work a little harder. Unfair, sure, but it's got to be done. And I can't let it sour me or make less than I am.

To others those roadblocks are insurmountable and are license to fail. That's where we disagree, and I'll leave it that.

Moderator note:

This thread is being unlocked. However, we ask that everyone try to conduct themselves civilly.

We also ask that folks please read the “How to use this board, not get deleted or thread locked” thread, if you haven’t already, and if you have, it might be worth refreshing your memory:
http://brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=36965

no name face wrote: I think the white people here learn what it's like to be a minority...doesn't that perspective actually HELP race relations? Even though I didn't face overt racism in my old community, sometimes I got 'looks' that made me feel I wasn't welcome (hey, some people are racist, what can i say?) and NONE of my white friends got what I was talking about. Now the white people that live here probably have that perspective and would understand. So it strengthens race relations even along those lines.

I support it, personally. Then again, I'm not 'indigenous' nor do I pretend to be just because I'm black. I really don't have much of an opinion on gentrification, but I like the nabe as it is, so if it changes because new people (like me i guess) displace the people who originally lived here, that would truly suck...but diversity is a very very good thing. On my block, for every four black people I see, I see one non black person...I think that's pretty cool. Just as long as the Clinton Hill/Bed Stuy area doesn't become Williamsburg or Park Slope, I don't care who lives here.

Agreed, and thank you for taking the high road and contributing to a real discussion. First of all, i would like to say that it IS good to be a white minority because it is easy to forget (when you're white) how differently the world looks when most of the people you see and interact with are of a different race. Just a simple thing like that can impact your outlook in a positive way. Second, i would also be saddened to see the neighborhood become another park slope/williamsburg. I would love to see homeowners benefit from increased property values and amenities, but i would like that to happen without widespread displacement. I don't know if that is possible.

BassPlaya--

To answer your original question:

My husband and I moved to Clinton Hill over 10 years ago; we are both white. We looked at all the brownstone Brooklyn neighborhoods, but chose CH because the streets were prettiest, the houses were really architecturally interesting, and folks were friendly. Our limited money also went the farthest. Frankly, it was an adjustment being a minority, but for the most part we felt welcome.

We'd also lived in Alphabet City at a time when people thought that was nuts, but we both liked the diversity and craziness. Clinton Hill was sedate by comparison, and much more attractive.

We bought a wreck of a house and spent years fixing it up. A lot of our neighbors (black and white) were in the same boat, and that fostered a certain sense of camaraderie. Like us, many of our neighbors at that time were white collar professionals, but not Wall Streeters or Master of the Universe types by any means.

For what it's worth, I don't necessarily identify with the new, comparatively wealthy white people moving in. There is often (but not always) a sense of entitlement, and generally much less interest in the block and the neighborhood.

Personally, I wish our insane real estate prices would cool down. I dread the thought of FG/CH turning into Park Slope or the UES, and I fear we are moving in that direction.

BassPlaya wrote: I don't expect anything from an anonymous message board and everything written here is taken with a grain of salt, though I don't have much patience for some of the flat out ignorance that I seen written here. YMMV

Hey, look, we _do_ have common ground! Except that I recommend a whole BAG OF SALT, rather than just a grain.

Peace.

Okay, now I am in the office. And a little less hot under the collar. What I am trying to get at (however imperfectly), is what is the point of this conversation? Is the real question: why aren't white folks still scared of my big black self? (Depends on the person, I guess) Why do white folks think they can burn a cross on a minority black family's lawn yet have the audacity to move to Bed-Stuy? (Most white folks don't think they can/should burn crosses on anyone's lawn, and are shocked to be asked such a question. It seems so, well, prejudiced. In my own experience those who even think about moving to a predominantly black neighborhood, although they may very well be imperfect in their racial conciousness are at least beyond the let's hang a nose from the old tree by the crick and see how the Smith-Jones's respond. That said, I was struck when I used to visit San Francisco a lot how many of the immigrant gay men expressed great fears about NYC, and a lot of those fears were explicitly racial.)

And altho you have chosen not to give me a sense of why you are provoking this debate, let me give you a thumbnail of my history: white guy, 43, bought in Clinton Hill in late 90s because could afford it. Considered Washington Heights (given I now work as a public defender in the Bronx that would have greatly cut the commute time), but felt that moving into an immigrant community would have felt alienating. At the time I perceived Clinton Hill to be a fairly comfortable African American community with gay and artistic overtones. Couple of good friends lived there. Never had a problem. never a second thought while living on Clinton Avenue. 6 years ago sold apartment and bought house from family who had owned it for 30 years in the Putnam/Classon area. Whole new ballgame. Much rougher, much more obvious class differences. Some initial unfriendliness from neighbors until my son was born and people realized I wasn't just a flipper, but was there to stay. I think because of these class differences those in my position seem a bit invisible in this corner and there is some uneasiness about the changes. Why do I stay? I can afford it. I have an interracial family (I and my son are white, my partner is black). I hang out in predominantly African American (but decidedly upmarket) establishments in the neighborhood. (I like folk, alternative, Brazilian music, and dress like the New Englander that I am, so I don't think I fall under the white negro label). I have lived as the minority in neighborhoods on and off since I was 22 (in Brazil, then a latino neighborhood in Manhattan, etc). In my current situation I do feel that there are not neighborhood institutions that I ahve access to. The only block association nearby is based primarily in a church and seems geared to the older women who live in the neighborhood. I think we could benefit from a more active and inclusive one and I will grant that I have been daunted by the prospect of how to get all the parties to the table. My work as noted above is anti-authoritarian. So I guess those are some of reasons I feel okay about moving into a predominantly black neighborhood while some white folks (and others) might not.

I'd say the simple answer to your question is that economics is more important than race in urban white and black communities.

Have you asked blacks why they are leaving the black neighborhood? Some are forced out with increasing rents, but those rents are being raised by black owners or new white owners who bought from black owners in many cases.

And for your poll I bought in Wallabout in 1999 after looking around Brooklyn for something I could afford. I'm white, my wife is hispanic.
As to goods and services, once you cover food and shelter everything else is superfluous. Well, maybe you need high speed internet now too.

http://www.brownstoner.com/brownstoner/archives/2007/09/streetlevel_oli.php

Hey what do you think of this placing moving to Bed Stuy? Perspectives only please, and be cordial. Thank you

Wallabouter wrote: I'd say the simple answer to your question is that economics is more important than race in urban white and black communities.

Have you asked blacks why they are leaving the black neighborhood? Some are forced out with increasing rents, but those rents are being raised by black owners or new white owners who bought from black owners in many cases.

And for your poll I bought in Wallabout in 1999 after looking around Brooklyn for something I could afford. I'm white, my wife is hispanic.
As to goods and services, once you cover food and shelter everything else is superfluous. Well, maybe you need high speed internet now too.

Yes, please do not assume that the white people you see are at all wealthy or own the places in which they live. My black landlord rented the downstairs apartment to whites, so now the building ins 1/2 white - part of me thinks that he's cynically taking advantage of the relationship between race and property values. I'm not saying I'm not part of the problem (since I look white), but I do not think that people should automatically equate race with wealth.

I moved to Crown Heights because the apartment was nice and the rent affordable. The racial makeup of the neighborhood really wasn't part of the decision process, but now that I'm here, I have to say that I feel very comfortable here.

In general, I do feel more comfortable around people who are different from myself. That's probably why most of my friends are black. That and the fact that when the white kids were beating me up for being Jewish, the black kids often saved my tiny rear.

When I'm around people who are of a similar ethnicity to myself, I know that I'm usually in for a world of hurt. I think it's because since I look like them, they assume that I should behave like them and there is NO tolerance for non-conformity. I couldn't conform if I tried. I was raised by wolves. Nice wolves, for the most part, but pretty clueless about society's norms. Whereas, when I'm around people who are different from me, if they find me weird, they just chalk it up to my being white and move on.

I have more freedom to be myself. And the lack of yuppies (along with their sense of entitlement) is refreshing.

Subject: Re: Why are whites moving into the "HOOD"?

BassPlaya wrote: As a black man, I'm curious about why whites are moving into communities where blacks are in the majority when at one time whites(and probably still) would flee a community or burn a cross when 1 or more black person moved in? I say some of these things tongue in cheek but I'm very interested in what the trend is all about. I'm also interested in why once you move into a neighborhood that's been "neglected" because of it's population, what do you expect? Do you expect things to be like where you came from, where more services were provided or where more affluent people lived?

I'm trying to gain some insight into what some white people are thinking and feeling about the communities and the "indigenous" population, so help a brotha out here.

That's funny because I'm curious to know if someone has come up with a better economic system than the capitalist system that is currently in place in this country.

What our dear BassPlaya fails to understand is that it's economics. You have a certain amount of funds that you can spend on your rent so you seek out areas where you can get the maximum amount of benefit for those funds. Simple.

No one ever said capitalism is a perfect system but it's the best one we've got so far.

BTW I missed the part where BassPlaya said he was a Native American. Perhaps my reading comprehension is bad.

I don't like the gentrification taking place in CH at all. Sorry for those who feel offended. My family owns an 8 unit building over here....We have one white tenant who moved in years ago before the "changes" started taking place over here. he is white and gay and at the time that was like a cardinal sin over here but he was safe nothing ever happened to him outside of an occasional stare. He said he moved here because it was cheap and the neighbor hood was nice and accessible to all parts of NYC. to make a long story short...the reason Im not for gentrification is not that I am racist no..its that I dont want my nice neighborhood to be yuppi-fied! I like my affordable food and shopping options. I like Mazon...I don't want a god damn American apparel over here. Ill go to park slope for that. I like coffee from the mom and pops places for .75 a cup not Starbucks for $7!!! I like Metfoods if I want Chilean Sea Bass ill order it from fresh direct or go to whole foods!!! And the landlords are forcing low income families out by raising prices and catering for yuppies. I mean whats the point of them coming here when all the end result will be is higher prices for everything. So all in all them moving here is pointless because with them coming looking for a lower cost of living is actually causing the opposite.