Methadone Clinics in Ft. Greene

tmd78 · October 2007

Hello all

This thread was started on the Clinton Hill blog - I thought I'd put it up here to get some more reactions/advice.

On Monday I spoke to Letitia James the councilwoman for the area about the Methadone clinic on the corner of Waverly and Fulton. My complaints were about the people on the street each morning - and the facility is two blocks from an elementary school!

She summarily told me that “standing on the street and smoking and making noise” were not illegal - that a study had been done and most of the people receiving treatment lived in the neighborhood and that we had to be concerned with their quality of life. I responded that if these folks do live in the neighborhood, they should have more respect for it. She also told me that there was a task force made up of people who had lived in the neighborhood for a very very very long time (yes, that’s a lot of very’s) and she would share my comments with them.

All I ask is that the folks receiving treatment not congregate on the street! It’s a lot of people! They’re loud! They lock their bikes to our gate and trap the downstairs apartment residents in! It’s intimidating and there’s an elementary school two blocks away!

So she called back. She said she’d spoken to the members of the task force and that they would be happy to have someone involved who was interested in working for positive change of the 3 facilities in the neighborhood (not, of course, to work to close down the facilities). Her top priorities are to cut down the blocking of entrances to shops, pan-handling and any illegal activities - as well as consolidate the services. I said I’d be willing to work for positive changes - lord knows what I’m getting myself in for - but if it leads to fewer people shouting outside my window each morning, then let’s do it! If you can’t beat them - join a task force.

Any advice? Anything I should address??

daver · October 2007

This sounds like a good way to address the situation to me. The problems you mention should be able to be relieved. Many centers like this adopt "good neighbor" policies and beat them into the skulls of the clients. Honestly, I doubt that it will ever be perfect the way that some people would like it to be, but I have no doubt that if you can work together in a non-antagonistic fashion with the people that run the centers, you can make it much more livable. Good luck!

carmen · October 2007

I am so, so, so glad this thread isn't about trying to clear out the methadone clinic (which I immediately assumed when seeing the title, totally my fault.) I agree that the issue raised should be resolved, and am glad to hear about the response.

boygabriel · October 2007

tmd78, sounds like you have raised some good points with Tish. Hopefully you can get them worked out.

pasticca2 · October 2007

Is it actually legal to have a methadone clinic this close to a PS ? those people don't just hang out, chat and have cigarettes around the hood, they bother everyone in the streets by begging for money, by getting into local shops and stealing things and most of all by dealing drugs after been fixed at the clinic, it is so obvious every dam morning I walk by with my son going to PS11 and we have to pass thru them, few months ago I had to call the police to remove one of them from my stoop where he vomited and then fall at sleep on it. It's disgusting!!! I will love to see it relocated! As James apparently said this is a service for the people who live in clinton hill ? sure there are many from here that use the facilities but also so many that get here by car,bus or subway from elsewhere, about that? can it be relocated to their areas? if she is the concern of giving better services to the neighborhood about focusing on the incompetence of the post office or figuring out the slow paste of this fulton street constructions which causes cars to speed crazy down the road ? about giant trucks driving at full speed on washington avenue where they shouldn't even drive into : see last week accident! ......................no one wants to open a business on Fulton because of this clinic and the junkies that go there, how can we revitalize this area if this crap still around ? NO MORE CLINIC NO MORE JUNKIES !! relocate it to an industrial area where no family and kids are around.

anonymous · October 2007

I'd like to know the real story as to where the people who frequent the clinic live.

In any event, what Letitia told you is at odds with what she told me a year or two ago. She said that she was working to close the clinic on Waverly and Fulton. There is another clinic on Classon and Fulton. Why you need more than one within a mile of each other is beyond me. The OP says there's a third clinic. Where is that?

I propose we start a petition to close the Waverly clinic. These guys make noise, litter, urinate outdoors, panhandle, buy drugs (sometimes sell them from what I've seen) shoplift from local bodegas and generally are unpleasant and scream obscenties at each other as they walk down the street. It's pretty ridiculous. Tish James says we need to be concerned about their quality of life?!! What a screwed up sense of priorities. I'm sure she'd love it if we filmed what happens regularly then quoted her on what we should be concerned about and put it in the local papers or the local tv news.

Please let's put a petition together to close the Waverly clinic. Methadone clinics do not belong in residential neighborhoods, period, and not within two blocks of an elementary school. The number of people who use the clinic who allegedly live in the neighborhood is neglible, and frankly, not my concern at all.

kevin_on_putnam · October 2007

Sorry, I have to post a minority opinion; I've lived in the nabe for 8 years now, around the corner from the Classon st. location. I walk to the subway past the Waverly location. They have never bothered me. I think if you took a cross section of the clients being helped there and the general public, the methodone clients would be quieter and more polite.

We have to deal with the Mason's building which rents out their ballroom for events. If you want to really hear a loud obnoxious group yelling and throwing up in your front yard, come over to Putnam Street near Classon on Saturday night. They make the Methadone clients seem like introverts.

The methodone clients are struggling with life and they like to have support from their community, and their community is other struggling drug addicts. If you will, why don't you try to say hello to them as you pass, maybe if they don't feel so isolated from the rest of us and they will be more sensitive to the noise they make etc. when they're talking

anonymous · October 2007

Kevin, if you have other concerns near Classon, then fine, try to have them addressed too. But I'm not interested in getting to know the addicts at the methadone clinic. If you'd like, go ahead and invite them to dinner. A methadone clinic has no place in a residential neighborhood and brings nothing good with it. The Coal and Ice building on Waverly and Fulton could be put to much better use that would actually benefit the community, not a few heroin addicts.

tmd78 · October 2007

Subject: Me again

Thanks all for the feedback and stories so far. Just wanted to add a little more about what Ms. James told me - she said there were three facilities in the area (which she felt was too many) and so streamlining/consolidating services was one thing she wanted to discuss.

In terms of who uses the facility, she told me that due to confidentiality she was unable to obtain the addresses of the folks receiving treatment, but the facility was able to share with her the Zip codes and most of the folks lived in the area.

I completely agree with all of the complaints - as I live quite nearby (and just witnessed a fist fight yesterday morning!!) the building could be better used as any number of things including housing or a community center (a shell of a building on Fulton a few doors down just sold for $1million!). if there are two other facilities in the area can't we close this one (both to help that area of Fulton have a chance at economic development and due to its proximity to a school).

If there is no way to close/move the facility - I notice they have a backyard area - could that be refurbed and only accessible through the clinic?? That way, post treatment there would be a bit of a holding area before they are released to the streets - drug dealers wouldn't have access to the vulnerable parties - they wouldn't be blocking the sidewalks? Just a thought.

The school being so close really gets me every time! I feel like I can lead with that as a key reason why this facility's issues has to be addressed immediately.

anonymous · October 2007

Zip codes. How silly. 11238 covers parts of Fort Greene, Clinton Hill and Prospect Heights - assuming that the addresses given by the addicts are correct.

In any event, that is not the point. The clinic has no place in a residential neighborhood. Catering to the few addicts is not beneficial to the community at large, especially when the same addicts support petty drug dealers and get involved in other antisocial and illegal behavior that affects everyone's quality of life and becomes a disincentive for investment in the Fulton Stree corridor in Clinton Hill.

I think Tish James is describing things delicately when she says that she does not want to close it down but would like to work towards consolidation. Effectively, that means some location(s) close down and consolidate into another. She clearly has some political interest in not coming out forcefully on this and trying to come at it with a softer approach. If that works, fine, but it should be the Waverly location that is moved somewhere else.

anonymous · October 2007

Tish has suggested to me over the phone that most of the people going to the clinic at Waverly and Fulton are coming in from other neighborhoods. Before we accept that this is servicing the local community, we should ask to see some evidence.

I do say hello to people on Fulton Street who are clearly coming from the meth clinic. I give change when asked, and I'm sympathetic to these people and their needs. But why should we sit back and allow fist fights, drug deals, and theft to go down in a residential neighborhood with schools and families? "Call the police" is a shallow response. I do call the police. There is a more fundamental problem here that needs to be addressed.

What does a petition accomplish? Does it merely send the message to Tish James that her political future is intertwined with her stance on this situation? Or can it achieve more than that?

I think regardless we should voice our concerns on the situation to her office:

Councilwoman Letitia James
[email protected]
718-260-9191

queencallipygos · October 2007

concerned wrote: A methadone clinic has no place in a residential neighborhood and brings nothing good with it.

I'm just curious whether you would feel differently if the clinic were serving residents OF that residential neighborhood. If it was helping a resident to wean themselves off heroin, wouldn't you say that was something good?

But I'm not interested in getting to know the addicts at the methadone clinic. If you'd like, go ahead and invite them to dinner.

Now, this just seems a little spiteful. I'm wondering why you seem so alarmed at the very existance of a public health establishment in the community? Do you not feel a community is responsible for taking care of its least fortunate members? Or do you believe that such people should be pushed out of the community altogether and left to fend for themselves? Do you not believe a healthy community must also include establishments to care for its members who are unhealthy? Or do you believe such people should just be swept under the rug?

boygabriel · October 2007

pasticca2 wrote: if she is the concern of giving better services to the neighborhood about focusing on the incompetence of the post office or figuring out the slow paste of this fulton street constructions which causes cars to speed crazy down the road

First of all, the post office is a federal entity and is out of Tish's domain. There's nothing she could do even if she wanted to. Our Representative, Ed Towns, is aware of the post office situation and has tried in the past to address this. Obviously it's an ongoing issue. I encourage you to search the archives on this board for the various lengthy discussions about what's wrong with the PO and how it might be fixed.

Aside from that, Tish is involved in more than a few quality of life and 'services' issues for our community. This is one of many issues she is addressing. Look at the whole of her performance before you criticize her for working on this one issue.

Have you contacted her office about the speeding on Fulton?

bassplaya · October 2007

Subject: Re: Methadone Clinics in Ft. Greene

tmd78 wrote:
All I ask is that the folks receiving treatment not congregate on the street! It’s a lot of people! They’re loud! They lock their bikes to our gate and trap the downstairs apartment residents in! It’s intimidating and there’s an elementary school two blocks away!

Do you mean "loud" as in the whole block hears them or "loud" as in I can hear them because I live right next door?

If they are locking their bikes to your gate in such a way as to prevent people from coming out, something should be done about that, have you spoken to the people in charge at the center? Also a sign would be a good idea as well.

I don't understand what the concern is with a school being two blocks away, maybe someone can fill me in as these are people seeking treatment who do not wish to be engaged in the illegal drug trade. Can you elaborate more on what you mean? Do you think these people are dangerous? Have they threatened you or anyone you know? Have they threatened any children you know?

anonymous · October 2007

"maybe someone can fill me in as these are people seeking treatment who do not wish to be engaged in the illegal drug trade."

I must say, I wish this were true, but I have personally watched drug deals go down between methadone clinic users and dealers on Fulton. On three seperate occasions, and I've only lived here about six months. In fact, the drug situation on Fulton has *everything* to do with this methadone clinic.

And in regard to supporting people "weaning" themselves off of heroin, that's not what meth clinics do. It's a lifelong treatment that gives a safe fix to ward off a dangerous withdrawal -- in other words, these patients are addicted to their methadone fix now, instead of heroin. It's a questionable solution, an improvement over heroin addiction, but not a situation where people are actually getting themselves clean.

jimmylegs · October 2007

what's a 'residential neighborhood'? was it a 'residential neighborhood' when the clinics were built? i know the area's a lot fancier now than it used to be but fulton is a commercial strip.

sounds like the clinic mostly needs to find a better way to cope with clients while they're on the block. i just hate that the implication in these discussions is always "move 'em to the poorer neighborhoods cuz nobody will be able to complain."

and in this town, what location ISN'T a couple of blocks from a school and NOT in a 'residential neighborhood'?

pasticca2 · October 2007

Subject: what?

Fulton is a commercial strip that runs in the middle of an historical/residential hood ! Sure this kind of clinics should be relocated in less significant part of the city, no one has said to this people to get into drugs to begin with, so why hard working people with a better life prospective should be living with this kind of trash around ? we should provide a service to them but not on prime areas. we spend more money, taxes ........... I don't see this as a bad decision from all of the people that want this clinic out of here! disgusting.

anonymous · October 2007

Agreed pasticca2. It was put here when the neighborhood was down on its luck and the locals didn't have the time or power to complain considering all of the other issues that had to be dealt with. The neighborhood should not continue to be treated poorly, and should not have in the past. As for whether it is residential, it is on the corner of Fulton and Waverly. Waverly is a landmarked block of brownstones and other rowhouses with families living in them. Fulton is commercial at street level with several residential apartments above stores.

anonymous · October 2007

There's just no way the majority of the methadone clinic users are coming from the local community.

That's a Tish James Crock-a-Shit!

If they can take the subway to Clinton Hill they can take the subway to a more remote, industrial neighborhood.

I wonder why she insists on defending the place when it will eventually unseat her.

jeffrey · October 2007

guest3 wrote: There's just no way the majority of the methadone clinic users are coming from the local community.

That's a Tish James Crock-a-Shit!

If they can take the subway to Clinton Hill they can take the subway to a more remote, industrial neighborhood.

I wonder why she insists on defending the place when it will eventually unseat her.

Ah yes, what what would a day be without a morning outburst of indiGuestion.

/me reaches for tums

alafairnadia · October 2007

I dare any of you to visit a methadone clinic or outpatient rehab center and walk out thinking that none of those folks could possibly be in your community. the prevelence (sp - mozilla is not helping me on this word!) of alcohol and drug abuse makes it a dead certainty that you deal with people in rehab/treatment every single day (and yes, it could be your boss, your child's teacher, the guy filling your gas tank, whoever - these places treat a gigantic cross-section of folks, regardless of race or class).

I think the original post was, well, on point - complaints about noise and encroachment are one thing. but further posts are absurd. if someone is trying to get their shit together, do you really want them to be traveling from their home in ft. greene or crown heights to east new york or brownsville because you don't want a treatment facility next door to you? and if that place has been there so long, why'd you move next door? yeesh.

pasticca2 · October 2007

I want them somewhere else because I have been living here for ten years and nothing has been done to stop this bullshit around the hood, and I don't want drug dealers at the deli around the corner from my house were my son wants to go and get a soda, apparently no one has been able to stop this crap including police...... so move the dam thing! sure James isn't going to get any good out of this, has she realize that there are hundreds and hundreds of people against this clinic! come on.

anonymous · October 2007

This is about getting to the source of a drug dealing epidemic in the neighborhood. Just because it's been going on for a while is no reason for complacency.

Those of us who actually live in the neighborhood have watched dealers prey on the clinic users for years, creating a market and a culture that needs to be addressed, not just by police, but at the root source of the problem. I for one, welcome new energy in the neighborhood aimed at fighting the situation.

Those of you living in Prospect Heights and Bushwick who so righteously defend the presence of this methadone clinic aren't living with its ramifications. Yes, these people need options and should not be ignored. Yes, many of them come from the area and surrounding neighborhoods. Yes, all newcomers to Clinton Hill should be aware of what exists in the neighborhood they are moving to.

But unfortunately this place is hurting the community more than it's helping it. To the person who suggests we should go into a methadone clinic and witness its clientele, I recommend you come to Fulton St on a Tuesday afternoon and witness the fist fights, drug deals, and unrealized potential of a great area.

boygabriel · October 2007

guest3 wrote: There's just no way the majority of the methadone clinic users are coming from the local community.

That's a Tish James Crock-a-Shit!

If they can take the subway to Clinton Hill they can take the subway to a more remote, industrial neighborhood.

I wonder why she insists on defending the place when it will eventually unseat her.

No, it won't. Tish's record in our neighborhood is far bigger than this clinic.

Wake up. You're just using her as an easy target for your lazy commentary.

queencallipygos · October 2007

St James & Gates wrote: Those of you living in Prospect Heights and Bushwick who so righteously defend the presence of this methadone clinic aren't living with its ramifications.

....What if we live by the Navy Yard? Are we allowed to defend the clinic then??

And frankly, even in "nice" neighborhoods it isn't always so peachy or quiet. You have a valid complaint about noise and loitering, but why not focus on that rather than removing the whole clinic entirely? Who's to say that removing the clinic would even stop the problem? How do you know that it wouldn't make it even worse (i.e., if you remove the clinic, then you'll have UNTREATED drug users wandering around the neighborhood instead of people whose drug abuse is being treated)?

anonymous · October 2007

You have a valid complaint about noise and loitering, but why not focus on that rather than removing the whole clinic entirely?

Because the noise and the loitering are not the problem. I would welcome just noise and loitering. You have missed the point.

The point is the market for drug dealers. You have drug addicts wandering the streets, looking for more than their clinic fix, and so you have drug dealers positioned on the street, looking for sales.

To me, complaints about noise and loitering are not valid. It's a commercial street and that often comes with the territory. But addressing the drug problem on the south end of Clinton Hill begins and ends with the methadone clinic. It's the root of the problem.

I have neighbors who have been here for 30 years who point to the Lefferts Hotel and the two Fulton meth clinics as the main forces creating dangerous distractions for their children and neighbors. If you want to address the problem with drug dealers over here, you need to address the methadone clinic.

anonymous · October 2007

That's exactly right St James and Gates. The Lefferts Hotel has, for now, been dealt with.

The long time residents on my block in Clinton Hill have the same view of the methadone clinics and the problems they create in terms of drug dealing - and all that comes with it.

alafairnadia · October 2007

have you tried calling the police? talking to the folks running the clinic? we've got plenty of drug dealing in PH and CH w/o a methadone clinic so ...

also, neighborhoods of these places don't matter. a well run facility can operate basically under the radar in midtown manhattan. that treatment and rehabilitation clinic in your office building? chances are they're not working on physical therapy.

pasticca2 · October 2007

Send james your complain! relocate it!

putnam-denizen · October 2007

This same debate surfaces every once and while on the various neighborhood blogs. As one poster put it, he (?) isn't concerned about the loitering, etc, it is the people who go to the clinic and they other people they attract. It is unpleasant to see people who have been ravaged by drugs. It is unpleasant to walk by their foul conversations and hear about the crises they face. It is not a world I can imagine myself being part of and it scares me a bit.

But in a world where methadone clinics are legal it is a bit much to translate that discomfort into a sense of entitlement about banishing methadone clinics which predate our arrival in the neighborhood. While I will grant that the methadone clinic and its clientele stand out on Fulton Street as it is today, as Fulton Street recovers and becomes the thriving commercial strip it once was, the methadone clinic will recede into the background. I understand its existence may slow the change over, but it won't stop it. And perhaps then those who are so offended by its existence and the existence of people whose lives are much less fortunate than ours will find it in their souls to be a little less selfish.

bassplaya · October 2007

Here's something to ponder...

If in fact all of this illicit drug activity is taking place amongst these methadone users, why isn't the police with all of it's surveillance equipment and "broken window" policy allowing this to go on so openly?

Methadone Clinics in Ft. Greene

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