Guns guns guns GUNS GUNS
apply for a carry permit. People are less inclined to rob a bar where the bartender's got a 9mm in plain sight.
Comments
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Or it could escalate the situation into something uglier.
The teardrop is a gangster tattoo that means he's killed before.
If you get a gun, get training! -
lilbangladesh wrote: Or it could escalate the situation into something uglier.
It's more of a deterrant than anything else - using it is a last resort.
The teardrop is a gangster tattoo that means he's killed before.
If you get a gun, get training!
Seems from the origional post that the tattoo guy scopes the place out before the robbery. If he sees an armed bartender they'll just move on. Hell, if he even hears that the bartenders are armed they probably won't even bother. Not worth the risk! -
apply for a carry permit. People are less inclined to rob a bar where the bartender's got a 9mm in plain sight.
I am trying to get information about gun permits. We will be opening a new bar this winter in Brooklyn and I am interested in getting a gun license. I have looked online (perhaps not on the right sites), and the information is confusing. Is a carry permit for establishment owners different than, say, home permit? What is the process? Do you know anything about all of this? Thanks! -
A carry permit is the most difficult of all the permits to obtain. A premises permit, allows the the person to keep a gun in his home or business but does not allow the person to freely carry the gun in public. NYC licenses are handled by the NYPD Licensing Division located inside 1 Police Plaza.
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Excellent information. Guess I will look into a premises permit. Now that I know what it is called I can move forward. Thanks!
A carry permit is the most difficult of all the permits to obtain. A premises permit, allows the the person to keep a gun in his home or business but does not allow the person to freely carry the gun in public. NYC licenses are handled by the NYPD Licensing Division located inside 1 Police Plaza -
liftandcut wrote:
I've been looking into it too, both for target shooting and just to make us feel safer at home. I'm looking into finding a lawyer to help me through the vast amount of red tape. I'll be contacting this guy:apply for a carry permit. People are less inclined to rob a bar where the bartender's got a 9mm in plain sight.
I am trying to get information about gun permits. We will be opening a new bar this winter in Brooklyn and I am interested in getting a gun license. I have looked online (perhaps not on the right sites), and the information is confusing. Is a carry permit for establishment owners different than, say, home permit? What is the process? Do you know anything about all of this? Thanks!
http://pistolpermitattorneynyc.com/
Unless anyone can recommend someone else.
Seem to remember reading something about "the right to bear arms shall not be infringed", but I guess that doesn't apply in NYC :evil: -
Evilbert wrote: [quote=liftandcut]
I've been looking into it too, both for target shooting and just to make us feel safer at home. I'm looking into finding a lawyer to help me through the vast amount of red tape. I'll be contacting this guy:apply for a carry permit. People are less inclined to rob a bar where the bartender's got a 9mm in plain sight.
I am trying to get information about gun permits. We will be opening a new bar this winter in Brooklyn and I am interested in getting a gun license. I have looked online (perhaps not on the right sites), and the information is confusing. Is a carry permit for establishment owners different than, say, home permit? What is the process? Do you know anything about all of this? Thanks!
http://pistolpermitattorneynyc.com/
Unless anyone can recommend someone else.
Seem to remember reading something about "the right to bear arms shall not be infringed", but I guess that doesn't apply in NYC :evil:
I suggest Texas as a great place for your relocation. -
alafairnadia wrote: I suggest Texas as a great place for your relocation.
Why would you suggest I relocate? -
Evilbert wrote: [quote=alafairnadia]I suggest Texas as a great place for your relocation.
Why would you suggest I relocate?
very easy to obtain a license to conceal there. very easy. -
alafairnadia wrote: [quote=Evilbert][quote=alafairnadia]I suggest Texas as a great place for your relocation.
Why would you suggest I relocate?
very easy to obtain a license to conceal there. very easy.
That's insufficient reason for me to consider moving. Are you one of those "put up or leave" people? Should any dissent against NYC's unconstitutional handgun restrictions be cause for people to either leave the state or shut up?
BTW - I'm not interested in a concealed carry permit, I'd just like to keep a gun at home and go target shooting on weekends. Please try not to interpret my statements yourself. -
Evilbert wrote: [quote=alafairnadia][quote=Evilbert][quote=alafairnadia]I suggest Texas as a great place for your relocation.
Why would you suggest I relocate?
very easy to obtain a license to conceal there. very easy.
That's insufficient reason for me to consider moving. Are you one of those "put up or leave" people? Should any dissent against NYC's unconstitutional handgun restrictions be cause for people to either leave the state or shut up?
BTW - I'm not interested in a concealed carry permit, I'd just like to keep a gun at home and go target shooting on weekends. Please try not to interpret my statements yourself.
well, it's actually my right to interpret whatever you type ALL BY MYSELF. wowie.
also, the fact is that most folks who have guns and are shot while being robbed are shot by their own gun. if you're really scared, I suggest a shotgun. sawed off. very little aim or skill required. just don't shoot your spouse when they're coming back to bed from the bathroom. and hopefully you're not such a heavy sleeper that a robber could get between you and your shotgun. -
alafairnadia wrote: well, it's actually my right to interpret whatever you type ALL BY MYSELF. wowie.
true, but it's a little annoying when you make things up and mis-interpret what I type.alafairnadia wrote: also, the fact is that most folks who have guns and are shot while being robbed are shot by their own gun.
Complete fabrication. Please don't make up statements to try to support your arguement.alafairnadia wrote: if you're really scared, I suggest a shotgun. sawed off. very little aim or skill required. just don't shoot your spouse when they're coming back to bed from the bathroom. and hopefully you're not such a heavy sleeper that a robber could get between you and your shotgun.
Sawed off shotguns are illegal and dangerous. You're making it very plain you know nothing about firearms and are just spouting off reactionary cliches. Besides, both my wife and I have fired literally thousands of rounds in our lives. We're both a pretty decent shot and the only person in danger would be the one trying to do us harm or steal our stuff. -
Evilbert wrote: [quote=alafairnadia]also, the fact is that most folks who have guns and are shot while being robbed are shot by their own gun.
Complete fabrication. Please don't make up statements to try to support your arguement.
actually, I should have added, but needed to go to work, that most likely the gun would end up stolen when neither of you are home and used in a crime. look up the mayor's stats if you want more info about this.
also, I realize you think I'm an idiot, but frankly, if you're such a gun expert, I have no idea why you're asking this or even engaging me. most of my family are experts in firearms (ex-military) and they all agree that the best home protection weapon, if you know vaguely how to use it, is a shotgun, sawed off preferably. of course, they're all gun nuts from tennessee and virginia, and also have huge collections of assault rifles. I, personally, know the stats (thanks for saying I'm making up facts - do a little research), and would never buy a gun, even if I'd fired 'literally thousands' of rounds, because I _know_ that chances are, it'd either get stolen or used against me. I'd rather not participate in society that way, in the former case, or die that way, in the latter. if you and your wife want to, fine, that's your business. I still think it's not the best way to go and fully support a lot of the mayor's work to tighten up gun control. -
Evilbert wrote: [quote=alafairnadia]also, the fact is that most folks who have guns and are shot while being robbed are shot by their own gun.
Complete fabrication. Please don't make up statements to try to support your arguement.
Alright, how about this one: You are much more likely to shoot a loved one with the gun in your home than you are an intruder. I was taught that in a law enforcement firearms class, which I understand doesn't necessarily make it true.Evilbert wrote: [quote=alafairnadia]if you're really scared, I suggest a shotgun. sawed off. very little aim or skill required. just don't shoot your spouse when they're coming back to bed from the bathroom. and hopefully you're not such a heavy sleeper that a robber could get between you and your shotgun.
Sawed off shotguns are illegal and dangerous.
It depends on where you are and how short you make it. A shortened shotgun is often a good choice for home defense for several reasons. 1) They are flat out intimidating. That is a BIG factor in these interactions. 2) If you choose your shot carefully, you can greatly reduce the chances of killing someone you didn't mean to by shooting through a wall, floor, or ceiling. Which is a VERY real danger with many other firearms used in home defense.Evilbert wrote: You're making it very plain you know nothing about firearms and are just spouting off reactionary cliches. Besides, both my wife and I have fired literally thousands of rounds in our lives. We're both a pretty decent shot and the only person in danger would be the one trying to do us harm or steal our stuff.
One could argue that you are making it plain by these statements that you do not have a proper respect for these dangerous tools. -
alafairnadia wrote: actually, I should have added, but needed to go to work, that most likely the gun would end up stolen when neither of you are home and used in a crime. look up the mayor's stats if you want more info about this.
I am not responsible for people who steal my property. This is why handgun registration is important, if my firearm is stolen I report it immediately and it can help trace any crimes committed with it.alafairnadia wrote: also, I realize you think I'm an idiot
I don't think you're an idiot. Mis-informed maybe but not an idiot.alafairnadia wrote: but frankly, if you're such a gun expert, I have no idea why you're asking this or even engaging me.
Because it's a discussion board. People come here to duscuss things. You actually initiated the discussion by suggesting I move to Texas.alafairnadia wrote: most of my family are experts in firearms (ex-military) and they all agree that the best home protection weapon, if you know vaguely how to use it, is a shotgun, sawed off preferably
As I've already pointed out, sawn-off shotguns are illegal in most states and only avaliable in others with special licensing. They are useless as anything except a point-blank range shot. The wide spread makes then rather unpredictable (yes, I have fired one). I'd never own one.alafairnadia wrote: of course, they're all gun nuts from tennessee and virginia, and also have huge collections of assault rifles. I, personally, know the stats (thanks for saying I'm making up facts - do a little research)
Call me old-fashioned, but if you make a claim it's kind of accepted that you need to prove it with a link. Most anti-gun claims are based on bogus statistics, you just need to do a little reasearch.alafairnadia wrote: and would never buy a gun, even if I'd fired 'literally thousands' of rounds, because I _know_ that chances are, it'd either get stolen or used against me.
that's the issue - you don't know. You've just made your decision based on hearsay and bad statistics. I used to feel the same way until I actually got to the truth of the matter.alafairnadia wrote: I'd rather not participate in society that way, in the former case, or die that way, in the latter. if you and your wife want to, fine, that's your business. I still think it's not the best way to go and fully support a lot of the mayor's work to tighten up gun control.
That's your decision. However, neither you nor mayor Bloomberg have the legal right to impose your viewpoint on those who do not share your view. If you keep up with the news, you must have read earlier this year that the DC handgun ban was struck down by the supreme court:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17538139/
If Bloomberg attempts any tighter gun control, it will go the same way. Like it or not, Americans have a legal right to own firearms. That right cannot be taken away by nanny-state activists no matter how much they complain. -
daver wrote: You are much more likely to shoot a loved one with the gun in your home than you are an intruder. I was taught that in a law enforcement firearms class, which I understand doesn't necessarily make it true.
A gun in your house is a last resort for personal defense. I live in a safe neighborhood and doubt I'd ever need to use it (you must have missed the part where I said my primary use would be target shooting).
However, should an intruder break into my house or place of business I'd rather be armed than unarmed.daver wrote: It depends on where you are and how short you make it. A shortened shotgun is often a good choice for home defense for several reasons. 1) They are flat out intimidating. That is a BIG factor in these interactions. 2) If you choose your shot carefully, you can greatly reduce the chances of killing someone you didn't mean to by shooting through a wall, floor, or ceiling. Which is a VERY real danger with many other firearms used in home defense.
I'm confused here. alafairnadia and yourself seem to be chastising me for wanting to own a handgun, yet you propose I own a saw-off shotgun at home. These are illegal in most states and pretty much useless for anything aside from point-blank zombie killing. Just ask Bruce Campbell
daver wrote: One could argue that you are making it plain by these statements that you do not have a proper respect for these dangerous tools.
One could, but one would be wrong. 7 years military service and a further 6 years range, target and skeet shooting give me much more respect for firearms than Brooklyn liberals who've never fired a shot in their lives but who run screaming to Bloomberg for more gun control whenever they read about gang shootings in the New York Times. -
Evilbert wrote: I'm confused here. alafairnadia and yourself seem to be chastising me for wanting to own a handgun, yet you propose I own a saw-off shotgun at home. These are illegal in most states and pretty much useless for anything aside from point-blank zombie killing. Just ask Bruce Campbell
Er, I didn't chastise you. Just pointing some things out. Like, for instance, sawed off shotguns are legal in most states down to an 18" barrel and 26" overall length. Further, they are FAR from useless in home defense, some of the reasons are listed in my prior message.Evilbert wrote: [quote=daver]One could argue that you are making it plain by these statements that you do not have a proper respect for these dangerous tools.
One could, but one would be wrong. 7 years military service and a further 6 years range, target and skeet shooting give me much more respect for firearms than Brooklyn liberals who've never fired a shot in their lives but who run screaming to Bloomberg for more gun control whenever they read about gang shootings in the New York Times.
I'm not sure if you are trying to attack me or not. If you are, then it is obvious that your assumptions about me are entirely inaccurate. I was responding to your somewhat callous comments from before, specifically: "Besides, both my wife and I have fired literally thousands of rounds in our lives. We're both a pretty decent shot and the only person in danger would be the one trying to do us harm or steal our stuff." I'm not arguing that you shouldn't have a firearm to protect yourself, I haven't taken a position on that. You should recognize, however, that anytime you use or threaten the use of that firearm, whether you are "a pretty decent shot" or not, the danger is definitely not restricted to the one trying to steal your stuff. -
daver wrote: sawed off shotguns are legal in most states down to an 18" barrel and 26" overall length. Further, they are FAR from useless in home defense, some of the reasons are listed in my prior message..
Again, short shotguns are illegal in most states. Additionally, those states where it is legal require additional licensing, approval from the sheriff's department and an annual fee:
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/gov_gun_law_pro_fir-government-gun-laws-prohibited-firearms
As for their effectiveness, please state when and where you've fired one then get back to me.
I don't want one. I think they're useless. That's my informed opinion. My desire to own a handgun is more to do with my hobby of target shooting than anything else.daver wrote: I'm not sure if you are trying to attack me or not. If you are, then it is obvious that your assumptions about me are entirely inaccurate. I was responding to your somewhat callous comments from before, specifically: "Besides, both my wife and I have fired literally thousands of rounds in our lives. We're both a pretty decent shot and the only person in danger would be the one trying to do us harm or steal our stuff." I'm not arguing that you shouldn't have a firearm to protect yourself, I haven't taken a position on that. You should recognize, however, that anytime you use or threaten the use of that firearm, whether you are "a pretty decent shot" or not, the danger is definitely not restricted to the one trying to steal your stuff.
Of course they can be dangerous - they're guns. They shoot little bits of metal really fast. If you've been around them enough, you'd realise that with correct handling and discipline, a shooting range is probably one of the safest places you can be. Lots of things are "potentially" dangerous, but that doesn't stop us from using them. If that were the case, we may as well just abandon society as we know it and shut ourselves in metal boxes right now.
I've had people call me callous before due to my willingness to use lethal force to defend my property. Interpret it that way if you wish, the truth is I am just less willing to become a victim than most New Yorkers. One really good method of avoiding harm would be to not break into my apartment. Should you choose to ignore that advice, I am not responsible for the consequences. Call it social Darwinism if you will. -
I'm just going to say that you sound awfully defensive and assuming that we nasty people just wanna take your guns away, and that's not what we're saying at all.
My point is, there is no point in having a gun UNLESS you have the necessary training, because if you don't, the gun, like it or not, WILL be used against you.
I've been in quite a few dangerous situations in my life and I can't say that a gun in my hands would have helped matters any. I was able to get out of these situations with my person and property intact because I stayed calm and did what I could to de-escalate the situation. If I had a gun, the de-escalation would not be able to occur. In fact, a gun automatically ESCALATES any situation you are in, so you BETTER damn well know how to use it, because hardcore criminals really don't scare off as easy as you think they do. It's much easier to make them think that you are not a profitable or fun target.
Telling a bar owner that his problem would automatically be solved with a gun is HIGHLY irresponsible. Hardcore criminals, like the ones involved in these robberies, are not necessarily going to be scared off and many would love to show you that their firepower exceeds yours. IF you are going to keep a gun for self-defense, it is ABSOLUTELY VITAL TO GET TRAINING!!! -
lilbangladesh wrote: I'm just going to say that you sound awfully defensive and assuming that we nasty people just wanna take your guns away, and that's not what we're saying at all.
Actually, alafairnadia is:alafairnadia wrote: I still think it's not the best way to go and fully support a lot of the mayor's work to tighten up gun control.
lilbangladesh wrote:
Complete rubbish. The reason firearms do require proper training and discipline is that it is ridiculously easy to kill someone with one. You just aim it and pull the trigger. The training is to mainly to ensure you don't acidentally shoot someone, or yourself.
My point is, there is no point in having a gun UNLESS you have the necessary training, because if you don't, the gun, like it or not, WILL be used against you.lilbangladesh wrote: I've been in quite a few dangerous situations in my life and I can't say that a gun in my hands would have helped matters any. I was able to get out of these situations with my person and property intact because I stayed calm and did what I could to de-escalate the situation. If I had a gun, the de-escalation would not be able to occur. In fact, a gun automatically ESCALATES any situation you are in, so you BETTER damn well know how to use it, because hardcore criminals really don't scare off as easy as you think they do. It's much easier to make them think that you are not a profitable or fun target.
I'm sorry, but you sound like a complete wimp. You are a victim, and the preferred target of crimenals because they know you won't fight back. I've seen firsthand the effect just the sight of a holstered pistol has on would-be assailants. Bravado disappears very quicky indeed when you have one pointed at you.lilbangladesh wrote: Telling a bar owner that his problem would automatically be solved with a gun is HIGHLY irresponsible. Hardcore criminals, like the ones involved in these robberies, are not necessarily going to be scared off and many would love to show you that their firepower exceeds yours. IF you are going to keep a gun for self-defense, it is ABSOLUTELY VITAL TO GET TRAINING!!!
fine, you just hide under the bar and hope the cops arrive in time to save you. I'll be down the range putting holes in targets.
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Victim? hardly.
I *have* fought back against criminals and I have outwitted them. And yes, sometimes I've had guns pointed at me. But I got out of every situation with person and property *intact*. (I once got a mugger so confused that he pointed a gun at me and screamed "TAKE MY MONEY!!!!" I got the scare of my life but did end up $50 richer.) Read for content much? I'm not the one running around scared because criminals don't mess with me anymore. They prefer to pick on someone more fearful because it makes them feel powerful, maybe, umm.... people like YOU?
The reason why training is needed is because if you DON'T know how to use one, the gun can all too easily be taken away from you and most criminals KNOW that the average law-abiding citizen doesn't have enough training. There's stuff like recoil and other factors that if you have never handled a gun before can seriously hamper your ability to use one effectively.
Get your gun if you must. Just get enough training so we don't have to read your obituary in the paper. -
since you decided to drag me back into this, Evilbert, I'll point out that:
Evilbert wrote: I've had people call me callous before due to my willingness to use lethal force to defend my property. Interpret it that way if you wish, the truth is I am just less willing to become a victim than most New Yorkers. One really good method of avoiding harm would be to not break into my apartment. Should you choose to ignore that advice, I am not responsible for the consequences. Call it social Darwinism if you will.
isn't even legal in Texas anymore. yep. former criminal defense attorney from Texas speaking. you're s*** outta luck on this one being legal. -
lilbangladesh wrote: The reason why training is needed is because if you DON'T know how to use one, the gun can all too easily be taken away from you and most criminals KNOW that the average law-abiding citizen doesn't have enough training. There's stuff like recoil and other factors that if you have never handled a gun before can seriously hamper your ability to use one effectively.
Have you even read a word I said? Please go back and re-read - I've covered all of this.
I suggest you get down to a shooting range one day so you get a little more familiar with the material we're discussing. I'm sure you must know at least one person with a gun permit? If not, take a weekend break in Florida - they have a walk-in-and-shoot policy on ranges there. -
alafairnadia wrote: since you decided to drag me back into this, Evilbert, I'll point out that:
isn't even legal in Texas anymore. yep. former criminal defense attorney from Texas speaking. you're s*** outta luck on this one being legal.
[quote=Evilbert]I've had people call me callous before due to my willingness to use lethal force to defend my property. Interpret it that way if you wish, the truth is I am just less willing to become a victim than most New Yorkers. One really good method of avoiding harm would be to not break into my apartment. Should you choose to ignore that advice, I am not responsible for the consequences. Call it social Darwinism if you will.
For a former attorney, you don't seem very knowlegeable about the law. Not only are Texans legally allowed to use lethal force to defend their property or person, they recently enacted a "no retreat" rule similar to the one that caused all the controversy in Florida:
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN2721289620070327
In total, there's 15 states with similar laws and more on the way.
So now not only are you allowed to shoot intruders and would-be muggers dead, you don't even need to attempt a retreat anymore. Must suck to be a mugger. -
Evilbert wrote: [quote=alafairnadia]since you decided to drag me back into this, Evilbert, I'll point out that:
isn't even legal in Texas anymore. yep. former criminal defense attorney from Texas speaking. you're s*** outta luck on this one being legal.
[quote=Evilbert]I've had people call me callous before due to my willingness to use lethal force to defend my property. Interpret it that way if you wish, the truth is I am just less willing to become a victim than most New Yorkers. One really good method of avoiding harm would be to not break into my apartment. Should you choose to ignore that advice, I am not responsible for the consequences. Call it social Darwinism if you will.
For a former attorney, you don't seem very knowlegeable about the law. Not only are Texans legally allowed to use lethal force to defend their property or person, they recently enacted a "no retreat" rule similar to the one that caused all the controversy in Florida:
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN2721289620070327
In total, there's 15 states with similar laws and more on the way.
So now not only are you allowed to shoot intruders and would-be muggers dead, you don't even need to attempt a retreat anymore. Must suck to be a mugger.
they had to dump their previous no retreat law (maybe 7 years ago?) due to many other court cases. this new one will be out in no time. shooting people in the back doesn't and attacking people who are just trying to steal your car/television doesn't hold well with the average good ole boy - pretty easy to make a jury full of them feel like pussies for upholding that shit. texas laws will all shift back on the liberal side in the next 10 years and I can go back to practicing law where there aren't 70 kazillion lawyers. -
and, actually, reading further on that law, it's pretty much a defense of person law not defense of property law. if someone enters your home, and is running out the front door with your TV, you're not going to get away with killing them.
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alafairnadia wrote: they had to dump their previous no retreat law (maybe 7 years ago?)
There was no previous no-retreat law. This is all new legislation brough about in the last couple of years. Are you sure you were a lawyer?alafairnadia wrote: texas laws will all shift back on the liberal side in the next 10 years
Sure it will :roll: You just keep thinking that. What with all the legislation going the other way, it seems highly unlikely.
Anyway, why does Texas keep coming up? We're in NYC and I've no intention of moving there.alafairnadia wrote: and, actually, reading further on that law, it's pretty much a defense of person law not defense of property law. if someone enters your home, and is running out the front door with your TV, you're not going to get away with killing them.
Of course not - don't be ridiculous. If someone is running out of your door they arn't posing a threat to your person.
However, if they are breaking IN then they're fair game. "Unlawfully trying to enter a protected place" (ie: a home) permits reasonable use of lethal force. -
Texas keeps coming up because you sound like one of the soon-to-be dwindling minority of gun toting republicans that live there. (dwindling minority because the burgeoning current minority of hispanics , blacks and asians are damned sick of redistricting, the KKK, and the king ranch)
yep, I'm sure I'm a lawyer. but no, I haven't paid attention to the law in several years b/c it's not my job anymore. all of the legal changes smack of the old guard clawing to make some changes before they're ousted.
and there wasn't a no retreat law - there was a law (similar to Texas' old open container in a car is cool law) that essentially allowed a homeowner to shoot someone if they were trespassing on their property - as in, inside the fence. the 'joke' was if you shot someone wherever, you just moved the body into your property line to get away with it. basically a "what's this retreat thing about" type law.
frankly, I think no retreat laws are dumb. but, since over half of this country disagrees with me, I'll just stay in liberal Brooklyn, where hopefully I don't share a wall with you and your gun toting wife. -
alafairnadia wrote: Texas keeps coming up because you sound like one of the soon-to-be dwindling minority of gun toting republicans that live there. (dwindling minority because the burgeoning current minority of hispanics , blacks and asians are damned sick of redistricting, the KKK, and the king ranch)
Insults are usually the last resort of someone who realises they don't have a case. Thanks for that. FYI, I'm not a "gun-toting republican", a member of the KKK or a christian nutjob. Google "Libertarian" sometime and educate yourself.alafairnadia wrote: yep, I'm sure I'm a lawyer. but no, I haven't paid attention to the law in several years b/c it's not my job anymore. all of the legal changes smack of the old guard clawing to make some changes before they're ousted.
I'm not a lawyer, but I still seem to know more about Texas gun laws that you do. Here's a useful website:
and there wasn't a no retreat law - there was a law (similar to Texas' old open container in a car is cool law) that essentially allowed a homeowner to shoot someone if they were trespassing on their property - as in, inside the fence. the 'joke' was if you shot someone wherever, you just moved the body into your property line to get away with it. basically a "what's this retreat thing about" type law.
http://www.google.comalafairnadia wrote: frankly, I think no retreat laws are dumb. but, since over half of this country disagrees with me, I'll just stay in liberal Brooklyn, where hopefully I don't share a wall with you and your gun toting wife.
Mine has a NRA sticker on the front door. I'll sleep better at night knowing that any burglers will see there's a much easier target down the hall
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