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How to be EXTREMELY green: Don't have kids — Brooklynian

How to be EXTREMELY green: Don't have kids

Subject: How to be EXTREMELY green: Don't have kids

Interesting concept and all I did this week was change my lightbulbs:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/femail/article.html?in_article_id=495495&in_page_id=1879
Meet the women who won't have babies - because they're not eco friendly
By NATASHA COURTENAY-SMITH and MORAG TURNER - More by this author » Last updated at 22:05pm on 21st November 2007

Comments Comments (30)
Had Toni Vernelli gone ahead with her pregnancy ten years ago, she would know at first hand what it is like to cradle her own baby, to have a pair of innocent eyes gazing up at her with unconditional love, to feel a little hand slipping into hers - and a voice calling her Mummy.

But the very thought makes her shudder with horror.

Because when Toni terminated her pregnancy, she did so in the firm belief she was helping to save the planet.

Scroll down for more...
Toni Vernelli

Desperate measures: Toni Vernelli was steralised at age 27 to reduce her carbon footprint

Incredibly, so determined was she that the terrible "mistake" of pregnancy should never happen again, that she begged the doctor who performed the abortion to sterilise her at the same time.

He refused, but Toni - who works for an environmental charity - "relentlessly hunted down a doctor who would perform the irreversible surgery.

Finally, eight years ago, Toni got her way.

At the age of 27 this young woman at the height of her reproductive years was sterilised to "protect the planet".

Incredibly, instead of mourning the loss of a family that never was, her boyfriend (now husband) presented her with a congratulations card.

While some might think it strange to celebrate the reversal of nature and denial of motherhood, Toni relishes her decision with an almost religious zeal.

"Having children is selfish. It's all about maintaining your genetic line at the expense of the planet," says Toni, 35...
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Comments

  • simply wow, she should just off herself now whats the point of taking up space and air and food.
  • Actually, while her position is extreme, she does have a point. Overpopulation is causing a huge problem in this planet, and ironically, it's not population in the third world that is causing the biggest problem (though the Bush administration's refusal to allow international family planning is causing a huge problem with deforestation), but population in the first world. We may be a smaller portion of the world's population, but we consume so much more, so the more our population increases, the worse it is for the environment. People in the third world have a much smaller carbon footprint, though China is aiming to change that.

    The responsible thing to do is to limit oneself to one, maybe two children at most. I'd like to have a child sometime, but it's for this reason that I won't go through IVF. If I can't have a child naturally, why should I go through all that pain and trauma? So the kid's genetically mine? Maybe my genes ain't so great? And it's not like there aren't plenty of kids out there to adopt if I really want a kid that badly.

    One thing you can say about that woman is that at least she has the courage of her convictions. You have to respect her for that.
  • In some cases, I'd advocate abortion in the 70th trimester....

    Hey, let's hear it for the Chinese and their "one child" policy; maybe they were on to something...
  • SevenOneEighty wrote: In some cases, I'd advocate abortion in the 70th trimester....
    :lol:

    I like your thinking, tell me more :D
  • SevenOneEighty wrote: In some cases, I'd advocate abortion in the 70th trimester....
    can we start with the prison population :p.
  • Interestingly enough, I'd argue in the first world, larger families are actually more efficient rather than less. Large families recycle clothing, bedding, toys and are far better at making a dollar stretch. They have large cars because they are actually transporting many people from place to place rather than dragging around the one VERY SPECIAL CHILD in the back of the largest car with the bigest airbags and the best crumple zones. How many people that have one child use hand me downs or buy articles secondhand? How many folks buy the state of the art car seat or high chair or the latest in bottles and nipples? Kids outgrow most clothing before the useful life has been achieved. Nope, I believe efficiency doesn't occur until you've had three or four kids.
  • I've always found it ridiculous that people think you're too young to decide to get sterilized but not too young to have a child. And as far as larger families being more efficient than smaller ones? Maybe in the beginning but those 4 or 5 kids are going to grow up to consume a heck of a lot more than one or two kids. I also don't understand comments like these:

    "Do these ladies not realise that if we do not have children eventually the human race will come to an end - what then?"

    "Children are a blessing and also necessary to maintain the population -- so if we all chose not to have children clearly that would be a disaster."

    "By being sterilised, for whom is the planet being saved exactly? Surely by being alive one is using up resources, so maybe we should all top ourselves to save the planet!"

    "I don't understand... so the world should end after our generation?"

    "What is the point of saving the planet if there's nobody to save it for?"

    Are these people idiots? No one is saying everyone should stop having children. Just because some people make the decision not to have kids doesn't mean they think everyone should stop. The human race is in no danger of dying out. And I don't understand why parents get so crazy about childfree people, why do they care if some people don't want kids?
  • Gawd, I seen so many fucked up people/friends breeding!
    Yet some of my smartest and wisest friends are not planing to propagate their kind.

    That's the problem, the stupid love to breed :roll:

    Exceptions of course = D.J. :D so happy!
  • It is interesting that educated populations are NOT having children.
    What does this mean for the planet?

    Poorer, less educated people tend to have MORE kids.

    This trend is happening in western Europe, Japan and even America.
    The U.K. is definitely experiencing this trend and becoming concerned:
    Educated, progressive, liberal, pro-choice people are Not breeding as much; less educated, conservative, religious, etc. and/or 'pro-life' people are having more kids. This will have some serious implications in 20 years or so.
    Germany has a birth rate of almost zero, last I heard: 8.5 births per 1000 residents, but immigrants of Germany are breeding at a higher rate.

    And yes, so many people who do not need to have kids are having them. Some of the best people I know are NOT having them: why is that anyway?
  • one good side effect of the stupid having more kids is. someone gotta mow that lawn and flip that burger.
  • Has no one here seen Idiocracy? It's got stuff that people need.
  • Hilarious movie!

    Let's keep giving out those 7th place ribbons in grade school!
    No winners, no losers, no competition...let's make everyone feel special instead!

    That is where we are headed - and we may already be closer than we think.
    Look at the people we elect to (mis)lead us.

    President Camacho!! LOL!!
  • SevenOneEighty wrote: It is interesting that educated populations are NOT having children.
    What does this mean for the planet?

    Poorer, less educated people tend to have MORE kids.

    This trend is happening in western Europe, Japan and even America.
    The U.K. is definitely experiencing this trend and becoming concerned:
    Educated, progressive, liberal, pro-choice people are Not breeding as much; less educated, conservative, religious, etc. and/or 'pro-life' people are having more kids. This will have some serious implications in 20 years or so.
    Germany has a birth rate of almost zero, last I heard: 8.5 births per 1000 residents, but immigrants of Germany are breeding at a higher rate.

    And yes, so many people who do not need to have kids are having them. Some of the best people I know are NOT having them: why is that anyway?
    Did anyone read this article in the NY Times awhile back?
    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/science/07indu.html
    Kind of the opposite phenomenon from what this thread is talking about. Here's an excerpt -

    " Generation after generation, the rich had more surviving children than the poor, his research showed. That meant there must have been constant downward social mobility as the poor failed to reproduce themselves and the progeny of the rich took over their occupations. “The modern population of the English is largely descended from the economic upper classes of the Middle Ages,” he concluded.

    As the progeny of the rich pervaded all levels of society, Dr. Clark considered, the behaviors that made for wealth could have spread with them. He has documented that several aspects of what might now be called middle-class values changed significantly from the days of hunter gatherer societies to 1800. Work hours increased, literacy and numeracy rose, and the level of interpersonal violence dropped.

    Another significant change in behavior, Dr. Clark argues, was an increase in people’s preference for saving over instant consumption, which he sees reflected in the steady decline in interest rates from 1200 to 1800."
  • Interesting.
    I had not heard that and had only heard the exact opposite.
    From a historic standpoint it is intriguing, though. The referenced issue of population and food relationship is true.

    At least with respect to Western Europe - UK and Germany especially. When I look around Park Slope or the West village or Tribeca, I think everyone is having has kids!!

    And this is the educated, liberal center of the planet (or Berkeley or SF, maybe)

    This current issue has been a trend I have been reading about for over 10 years now:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/22/ncareer22.xml

    Third of graduate women will be childless
    By Ben Leapman, Home Affairs Correspondent, Sunday Telegraph
    Last Updated: 6:46am BST 24/04/2007

    A third of women graduates will never have children, research has concluded.

    The number of highly educated women who are starting families has plummeted in the past decade, according to findings that provide the most detailed insight yet into education and fertility.

    While some women are making a conscious decision not to have children, others are simply leaving it too late after taking years to build their careers, buy a home and find the right partner.
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    Graduates who do become mothers are having fewer children, and later.

    If the low birth rate trend continues, then the eventual rate of childlessness among graduates now aged in their twenties is likely to be even higher than a third.

    The findings come from a ground-breaking study into more than 5,000 women born in 1970 and tracked throughout their lives by researchers at the Centre for Longitudinal Studies, based at the Institute of Education in London.

    It revealed that 40 per cent of the graduate women were childless at age 35. The researchers forecast that by the time they reach the likely end of their child-bearing years at 45, about 30 per cent will still be childless.

    Of a panel of older graduate women born in 1958, only 32.7 per cent were childless at 35.

    The results help to explain the low birth rate which is leading to an ageing population in Britain and much of western Europe.

    Overall population decline is only being prevented by immigration and a higher birth rate among non-graduate women.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,,1731118,00.html
    German birth rate falls to lowest in Europe


    Luke Harding in Berlin
    Wednesday March 15, 2006
    The Guardian

    The number of children born in Germany last year was the lowest since the end of the second world war, the Federal Statistical Office reported yesterday. According to provisional figures, 680,000 babies were born in 2005, down from 1.36 million in 1964.

    Germany now has the lowest birth rate in Europe with 8.5 births per 1,000 inhabitants, while in Britain it is 12, France 12.7, the Netherlands 11.9 and Ireland 15.2. The figures also show falling birth rates across former communist eastern Europe and the Baltic states, including Poland (9.3), Bulgaria (9) and Latvia (8.8).

    Leading economists said unless Germans started breeding again Europe's biggest nation faced the prospect of reduced growth, economic decline and an elderly shrinking population.

    "We are reaching a critical point," Michael Hüther, the head of Cologne's economics institute, told Die Welt newspaper. "The number of births now determines what happens in the next decade-and-a-half to two decades. You can't revise it afterwards. The availability of human capital will get worse, and act as a brake on growth."

    Article continues
    He told the Guardian: "The tradition in the 1950s, 60s and even the 80s in Germany was that a mother was only a mother and looked after the children."

    Last year Germany's family minister, Ursula von der Leyen, tabled proposals to encourage reluctant couples to have children. They included tax breaks of €3,000 a year for working couples, more nursery places, and a new state-funded welfare scheme that requires men to take two months off for families to get full funding. So far the changes appear to have had little impact and they have been criticised by some as a perk for the well-off.

    Experts have pointed to many reasons why Germans are failing to reproduce - a conservative family culture, with women expected to stay at home; schools that finish at lunchtime; and a tax system that discriminates against working women. "I'd like to have children. But to do so now would kill off my career," Steffi Warnke, a 31-year-old PhD student at Berlin's Free University told the Guardian.

    "The problem is we study in Germany for a long time. When you reach the stage you are applying for academic jobs you are 30-35. And if you do have kids you don't get much support. Germany is becoming a society of pensioners. You only have to turn on the TV to see that all the programmes are for the over-50s."

    The latest federal figures show wide regional discrepancies. The highest birth rate is in former West Germany, with Wiesbaden (10.5), Frankfurt (10.2) and Bonn (10.1) topping the list. In former communist East Germany, by contrast, the birth rate is alarmingly low, with the city of Chemnitz (6.9) registering the lowest birth rate in the world. According to Eurostat, the EU's statistics agency, by 2050 Europe's population will have fallen by around 1.5%, or 7 million people.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/27/world/main546441.shtml
    European Birth Rate Declines
    Population Growth In E.U. Has Flipped From Positive To Negative

    WASHINGTON, March 27, 2003

    (AP) The natural increase in Europe's population is slowing and may start a steep decline within a few decades, researchers say.

    Researchers writing in the journal Science said European population growth reached a turning point in the year 2000 when the number of children dropped to a level that statistically assured there will be fewer parents in the next generation than there are in the current generation.

    In effect, the authors say, the momentum for population growth in the 15-nation European Union has flipped from positive to negative and the trend could strongly influence population numbers throughout the 21st century.

    "If the current fertility rate of around 1.5 births per woman persists until 2020, negative momentum will result in 88 million fewer people in 2100, if one assumes constant mortality and no net migration," the researchers say. The EU population in 2000 was about 375 million.

    Brian C. O'Neill, a researcher at the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis in Austria and a co-author of the study, said the projection is based on the age structure of the current European population which now has more adults than children.

    "Age structure affects population size because it determines how many adults there will be in the future," O'Neill said in an interview. "Currently there are fewer children than adults. That can produce a declining population in the future because the number of potential parents will be smaller than the number of parents there are today."

    A population decline in Europe is not assured, said O'Neill, but the decline in the number of future parents is a fact that may set in motion a drop in population.

    "That is going to push the population toward decline," he said. "Whether it actually ends up in a decline will depend on other factors, particularly migration. ... The European population may not decline if migration is high enough to offset this population momentum."

    The change in the traditional role of women has been a major factor in the projected decline in population, the authors said. The demands of education and career encourage many women to put off having their first child.

    In the 20th century, the average age at first birth of mothers shifted sharply from the low 20s to the late 20s. As the trend toward having the first child continues to advance toward an older age it locks in a decline in natural population growth, said O'Neill.

    "The implications of negative momentum are small right now, but they are going to get bigger quickly," he said. "If you have another 10 years of low fertility, that decline (by 2100) would be 25 to 40 million. If we have two decades of low fertility, then it would be another 25 to 40 million."

    Hans-Peter Kohler, a University of Pennsylvania researcher who has written extensively on population trends, said the paper by O'Neill and his co-authors is "a quite important study."

    He said the research demonstrates that fertility in a population can be significantly affected by social trends that encourage women to delay starting a family. Although this has had a major effect on the European population, he said, it has not been a major factor in the United States.

    "There is a delay in the U.S., but it is much less pronounced when compared to the Europeans," said Kohler.

    O'Neill's co-authors on the study in Science were Wolfgang Lutz and Sergei Scherbov of the Vienna Institute of Demography, a part of the Austrian Academy of Sciences in Vienna.
  • Children cost parents lots of money in a capitalist system. Not only that, but the woman will probably take time off from work - years even - during which she will not earn any income and will even lose ground with social security benefits.
  • leet wrote: Children cost parents lots of money in a capitalist system. Not only that, but the woman will probably take time off from work - years even - during which she will not earn any income and will even lose ground with social security benefits.
    Yes,

    That has always given women a financial ( and professional) disadvantage. The rules were written at a time when "family" was defined more narrowly. It may be time for the rules to change if the U.S. and western cultures expect to keep the population numbers up on their end. I built-in think daycare and nurseries and even pre-schools need to become a part of the office norm across the board.

    Surely we can figure out a way to do this. It won't be ideal for everyone but it can help many families who struggle with work and childcare.

    Paid maternity leave and working from home in our high tech/ communication age should be options for people with work structures that allow for it. And FLEXIBLE SCHEDULES, 4 DAY work weeks or 35-40 hours too. Obviously, this would be harder for some people, but for a huge part of the population, this would work out.

    here is a pro/con look from businessweek:
    http://www.businessweek.com/debateroom/archives/2007/04/day_care_an_off.html
    Day Care: An Office Affair
    More employers should provide care for their workers’ children.

    Pro or con?
    Pro: Happy Parents, Kids, and Corporations

    by Cliff Hahn

    It’s obvious what working parents gain from on-site day-care programs: reliable, safe, and convenient care for their children. But what do the employers get out of it?

    Let’s start with happier and more productive employees.

    In a report by the National Conference of State Legislatures, employers cite child-care issues as causing more problems than any other family-related issue in the workplace, with increases in absenteeism and tardiness reported in nine out of 10 companies. And 80% of the companies surveyed said that work days were cut short because of child-care problems.

    Child care benefits the employers who sponsor it by improving employee morale, reducing turnover and absenteeism, and increasing productivity.

    And pampering bottoms might just help the bottom line. A cost-benefit study conducted by Cynthia Ransom and Sandra Burud at the Union Bank in Pasadena, Calif., showed the institution’s on-site day-care program saved it $138,000 to $232,000 in annual operations costs, due to the reduction in both turnover and absenteeism.

    Child-care services enable employers to gain wage savings, too. For the book Kids at Work: The Value of Employer-Sponsored On-Site Child Care Centers, authors Rachel Connelly, Deborah S. DeGraff, and Rachel A. Willis studied hundreds of employer-sponsored child-care programs and interviewed some 1,000 employees. Their research demonstrates on-site day care is not only affordable but also profitable. The researchers estimated savings in wages of $150,000 and $250,000 for just two companies that provided on-site day care.

    A majority of workers were willing to pay, on average, $125 to $225 per year to subsidize on-site day care—whether or not they had young children. That’s right—even nonparents said they’d chip in, because they believed it would help raise morale and increase productivity.

    "It shouldn’t be so surprising that people who work with one another for five or more years should care about one another and that that actually translates into economic behavior," says Connelly. Kids at Work, she notes, offers some models for calculating the benefits.

    "Maybe your CEO or HR person can take a risk," adds Connelly. "It can be a case of, ‘If you build it, they will come.’"

    Con: Get Real About What Employers Can Do
    by Courtney Lee Adams

    Employer-provided on-site day care won’t solve the child-care problem for working families, and in many cases is unrealistic. Let’s face a relevant fact: The real burden of caring for children falls disproportionately on women, who in the U.S. still perform twice as much child care and domestic work as men.

    How many working women have employers who could consider providing such services? In the U.S., professional managerial women make up only about 8% of the female workforce, whereas 27% of women hold low-wage blue-collar jobs.

    A third of all families with children have incomes not far above the federal poverty level. In New York City, single working mothers (many of them employed in the service sector) suffer the highest rates of poverty. Do we really believe their employers will take up the expense of caring for their children?

    Besides, large or small, no employer should be in the business of child care, any more than it should run on-site hospitals, dental clinics, or high schools. On average, children under the age of 5 with working mothers spend 36 hours per week in some type of care. In an era when fewer Americans receive health insurance through work (only 55% now, and the numbers are declining), tying essential child-care services to employment is unrealistic, a poor strategy that doesn’t serve the interests of either working families or businesses.

    Families need flexible work schedules, including longer, paid maternity leave for mothers and fathers; access to quality part-time jobs; pre-K and afterschool programs; universal health coverage; and an end to the gender discrimination that privileges men’s work and careers at the expense of women’s earning power.

    Evidence suggests paid maternity leave keeps women in the workforce, increases their productivity, and ultimately contributes to the overall competitiveness of the U.S. workforce.

    Publicly financed European models offer gender parity, flexible time that’s responsive to the changing needs of maturing families, and increased competitiveness for companies freed from the high 30% benefits load typically carried by U.S. businesses.

    On-site day care would seem to promise the best of both worlds—employees working away at maximum productivity while their children are safe and sound—but that’s an illusion. Infants must be nursed. Sick children need to go to the doctor. Eighth-graders need supervision after school.

    Nearly all parents, mothers and fathers, wish they had more time for their kids. But the answer isn’t to bring them to work.
  • All I know is that economic constraints and the inability to find a partner that I would want to have a child with (which may have something to do with economic constraints) is the reason why I'm still childless.

    Nowadays, by the time that most people are economically stable enough to even consider having children, they're almost past reproductive age. And the reason why poor people in this country have more children is a lack of reproductive education and access to birth control. Birth control is expensive! And a lot of poor people I've met are woefully ignorant about it.

    Educated women have fewer children, partly because they are trying to build their careers (and as our economy is currently structured, a child is a monkey wrench to a woman's career) and also partly because they can make educated choices about where and when to have a child and the consequences therein.

    Much as I would have loved to have a family by now, I know that I would be a disaster as a single mom. This isn't a diss against single moms because I know a few great ones. But *I* would be a disaster. I think I could be a good mom with the right partner, but I still have yet to find one. I have found that men judge me on my low income level even more than I judge them. (My criteria is: Do they earn enough to pay their bills and do they not spend more than they have? I feel I should be judged the same way, but I often get: "You only earn $15-20 an hour? Bye.") So there ya go: economic constraints.
  • lilbangladesh wrote: Birth control is expensive!
    Condoms aren't.
  • WhyFi wrote: [quote=lilbangladesh]Birth control is expensive!
    Condoms aren't.
    Medicaid even pays for condoms, so if you're poor enough to get Medicaid, you can get condoms for free if you just have your doctor write a prescription for them.
  • lilbangladesh wrote: And the reason why poor people in this country have more children is a lack of reproductive education and access to birth control. Birth control is expensive! And a lot of poor people I've met are woefully ignorant about it..
    Is that really the case today in America? Who doesn't know about condoms and birth control today in western society? - It's practically given away these days it seems.

    Television, periodicals and the internet have so many sources about birth control ..and this is not a "developing country" where information is not available to women.

    [Social commentary: If you have a Nintendo Wii or "Madden 2008" in your house, as many Americans do, you should also know 'something' about birth control today...no?]
  • they give away condoms by the butt loads in schools and all sorts of medical places.
  • They may give out condoms by the bucketful, but I don't think they necessarily educate people about their proper use. Though the campaign towards young women not to have sex with men who won't wear one is pretty useful. I think you may be right and that if you live in an urban area, you really have no excuse to not know about birth control.

    The ignorant, ill-informed people I was thinking of are rural. I've had to disabuse quite a few crazy notions about birth control among my rural classmates in college. Also, in rural areas, there's less access. It does little good if Medicaid pays for your condoms (when did that change? Must have been recent because I remember a huge hoopla about having insurance pay for birth control) if your Bible belt pharmacist won't sell them to you. And that's assuming you can get a prescription. Religion frequently gets in the way of reproductive care out in the sticks.
  • Medicaid has covered condoms since the early 90s.
  • Sex Ed in NYC is not the norm for the whole country. How many states have abstinence only programs? While we have easy access to condoms and safe sex info here, we're lucky. It's not always the case elsewhere. And all the safe sex talks can't always compete with the breeder mindset. If you're a young girl growing up in a family and neighborhood where it's normal to get pregnant at a young age and have a lot of kids, it's hard to realize there are other options. I'm not saying it can't be done but it's difficult for some people.
  • lilbangladesh wrote: The ignorant, ill-informed people I was thinking of are rural. I've had to disabuse quite a few crazy notions about birth control among my rural classmates in college. Also, in rural areas, there's less access. It does little good if Medicaid pays for your condoms (when did that change? Must have been recent because I remember a huge hoopla about having insurance pay for birth control) if your Bible belt pharmacist won't sell them to you. And that's assuming you can get a prescription. Religion frequently gets in the way of reproductive care out in the sticks.
    This is one of the most ridiculous comments comments I've read in a long time, while this -
    caseopele wrote: Sex Ed in NYC is not the norm for the whole country. How many states have abstinence only programs? While we have easy access to condoms and safe sex info here, we're lucky. It's not always the case elsewhere. And all the safe sex talks can't always compete with the breeder mindset. If you're a young girl growing up in a family and neighborhood where it's normal to get pregnant at a young age and have a lot of kids, it's hard to realize there are other options. I'm not saying it can't be done but it's difficult for some people.
    ... is something that I can totally agree with. Lilb, in what rural area did you bless these cro-magnons with your wisdom? I've never met someone of breeding age that didn't understand that inserting a penis in to a vagina was the way reproduction worked. I hardly think that higher pregnancy rates among the lesser educated is because they're not familiar with the process but rather that 1) it's a socially accepted norm as caseopele mentioned or B) they're simply irresponsible and the consequences haven't been thought out.
  • "breeder mindset" LOL!!

    That would be a factor for sure.
  • Mamacita wrote:
    Exceptions of course = D.J. :D so happy!
    You mean me? Aw thanks.

    I'm sure I once had strong opinions about environmentally-driven eugenics, followed some years later by opinions about depopulation among middle-class Western liberal intellectuals, but for some reason I seem to be too taken up with reproduction at the moment to want to enter into a rant.
  • wait wait dr j has spawned :O. dang i should check his facebook thing. i never check that thing.

    congrats doctor j.
  • Ahh, hold your horses, we're not there just yet.
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