prospect heights will never be popping.
no matter how many new stores or restaurants open up, prospect heights will never be a charming destination spot or place where pedestrians will flock. flatbush, washington and vanderbilt, the three main commercial arteries, are just too wide and too teeming with speeding traffic for any sort of intimate neighborhood to ever evolve. it's too difficult to quickly cross and meet friends, and no one wants to sit at a sidewalk cafe with cars whizzing by at 50 miles an hour.
smith street, bedford ave, 7th ave and 5th ave are all significantly more narrow and conducive to foot traffic -- these are the social bloodlines of cobble hill, williamsburg and park slope. the closest approximation to a successful street with high speed traffic is probably dekalb in fort greene, and that's at least one-way and sidles up to a park. same with lafayette. this isn't only true with brooklyn; in the lower east side, people accumulate on every side street except essex and chrystie, the only two wide streets with fast traffic.
with rare exceptions, i think that establishments on washington and vanderbilt will always have trouble thriving because they'll never get walk-by business. the best bets for a "main drag" in the area are underhill, franklin and nostrand. and the only one of those that's actually in prospect heights is largely residential.
smith street, bedford ave, 7th ave and 5th ave are all significantly more narrow and conducive to foot traffic -- these are the social bloodlines of cobble hill, williamsburg and park slope. the closest approximation to a successful street with high speed traffic is probably dekalb in fort greene, and that's at least one-way and sidles up to a park. same with lafayette. this isn't only true with brooklyn; in the lower east side, people accumulate on every side street except essex and chrystie, the only two wide streets with fast traffic.
with rare exceptions, i think that establishments on washington and vanderbilt will always have trouble thriving because they'll never get walk-by business. the best bets for a "main drag" in the area are underhill, franklin and nostrand. and the only one of those that's actually in prospect heights is largely residential.
Comments
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My boutique has been on Vanderbilt for 2 years now, before that it was on 6th between Dean and Bergen, 2 blocks away, also in PH. SO my shop is 7 years old and has been in PH all that time, and it's doing better than ever, so are other businesses on "fast lane" Vanderbilt.
Yawn. Wake up and smell the reality {perhaps at fab Joyce Bakeshop, also on Vandy}. Your current theory is incorrect, at least in this context. -
Subject: Re: prospect heights will never be popping.
young snitch wrote: with rare exceptions, i think that establishments on washington and vanderbilt will always have trouble thriving because they'll never get walk-by business. the best bets for a "main drag" in the area are underhill, franklin and nostrand. and the only one of those that's actually in prospect heights is largely residential.
Just curious, why Nostrand? Vanderbilt seems to be doing okay (progress is slow and steady), but it doesn't mirror the growth the neighborhood is experiencing. Vanderbilt reminds me of Flatbush Avenue five years ago--easily accessible and high traffic area but few entertainment/dining options. -
i'm happy to hear that, and admittedly not privy to the financial situations of any of those establishments. but i'm right about the rest of it.
edit: my main point is about the aesthetic of the neighborhood for residents and visitors, not the success of businesses. -
nostrand is absolutely packed with commercial space. it currently has several times the foot traffic of washington or vanderbilt. and from a historical perspective, as people mentioned in that starlite post, it used to be a destination spot for nightlife.
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I second sje's "Yawn."
ys, you're so wrong about the things you're sure you're right about i'm starting to wonder if you're a republican.
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ana.log wrote: I second sje's "Yawn."
that was a well-crafted and thought-provoking rebuttal. maybe you could expand those insightful and interesting points to explain why vanderbilt and washington will both be exceptions to the fundamental characteristics shared by every other successful "main drag" in brooklyn.
ys, you're so wrong about the things you're sure you're right about i'm starting to wonder if you're a republican. -
Subject: Re: prospect heights will never be popping.
We don't want to 'pop' kiddo. Grow up.young snitch wrote: no matter how many new stores or restaurants open up, prospect heights will never be a charming destination spot or place where pedestrians will flock. flatbush, washington and vanderbilt, the three main commercial arteries, are just too wide and too teeming with speeding traffic for any sort of intimate neighborhood to ever evolve. it's too difficult to quickly cross and meet friends, and no one wants to sit at a sidewalk cafe with cars whizzing by at 50 miles an hour.
smith street, bedford ave, 7th ave and 5th ave are all significantly more narrow and conducive to foot traffic -- these are the social bloodlines of cobble hill, williamsburg and park slope. the closest approximation to a successful street with high speed traffic is probably dekalb in fort greene, and that's at least one-way and sidles up to a park. same with lafayette. this isn't only true with brooklyn; in the lower east side, people accumulate on every side street except essex and chrystie, the only two wide streets with fast traffic.
with rare exceptions, i think that establishments on washington and vanderbilt will always have trouble thriving because they'll never get walk-by business. the best bets for a "main drag" in the area are underhill, franklin and nostrand. and the only one of those that's actually in prospect heights is largely residential. -
^^^ he's mad.
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I guess I'm wondering what the difference is? Flatbush Avenue is a wide way and they've even got outdoor cafes now. In terms of an "intimate neighborhood", how you get any more intimate than PH? Anybody who lives in PH knows that it's nearly impossible to leave your house without running into someone you know on Vanderbilt, Flatbush, Washington, or any of the residential streets.
You are right though, if you consider Flatbush to be part of PS, then PH is pretty lacking. Vanderbilt has some fairly successful businesses now, but it's still very sleepy in terms of foot traffic (hence all the yawns 8) ) -
Saying that Smith St. is more successful as a "neighborhood" or "commercial area" than Prospect Heights is like saying the Lower East Side is a more successful neighborhood than the the Upper West Side because it doesn't have huge, well-trafficked avenues running through it.
Traffic is a good thing for commerce which is a good thing for the neighborhood.
But one only needs empirical evidence to demonstrate this. If you haven't noticed the changes in successful commerce and the "neighborhood-y-ness" (yes, I made that word up) of the area, you may need to get out more.
Incidentally, when I went with some friends of mine, who are relocating from the West Village to Brooklyn, to look at apartments in Prospect Heights, they couldn't stop talking about how quaint and lovely the neighborhood was and how much it felt like the West Village to them.
In the end, the settled on Park Slope because they have a kid and wanted to avail themselves of the better public school system. But they bought a place on a 8th Avenue, which, they lamented, did not have enough trees and felt too industrial. Again, this was Park Slope -- which, I doubt you would argue is an unsuccessful neighborhood commerce-wise or other, despite those pesky, well-trafficked avenues. -
is traffic good for commerce? i'm not sure that's true in new york, especially when it's moving at a high speeds. the traffic on fifth, sixth and seventh avenues in park slope is completely different from that found on flatbush, washington or vanderbilt. i would argue that fourth avenue is lagging behind the other avenues in park slope for the exact same reason.
there are people starving for bars, boutiques and restaurants in prospect heights, so demand alone is going to create many of those establishments. oddly enough, the west village comparison seems somewhat accurate in that seventh avenue is expansive and heavily-trafficked. but they also have tons of commercial space on the streets that tangle between sixth and seventh (macdougal, christopher, etc). we don't. -
young snitch,
You are scaring the hell out of everyone that spent way too much for their properties...
They pray that things will get better and better and then one day "prospect slope utopia" No more thugs... -
young snitch wrote: the west village comparison seems somewhat accurate in that seventh avenue is expansive and heavily-trafficked. but they also have tons of commercial space on the streets that tangle between sixth and seventh (macdougal, christopher, etc). we don't.
true, but this probably has more to do with zoning than anything. there aren't a lot of non-residential buildings on our side-streets either; also, keep in mind that prospect heights' is still a nascent neighborhood in many ways. with many new condo developments, rumors of gourmet grocery stores, etc., there is much potential for ever more change.
4th avenue is the new 5th avenue -- which, if you were in brooklyn 8 or 9 years ago, you will remember had virtually no commerce at all. look at it now.
bottom line is: the jury is still out on this. -
Breuckelen wrote: young snitch,
if i sold my apartment today I would easily get well over twice what i paid for it 3 years ago.
You are scaring the hell out of everyone that spent way too much for their properties...
They pray that things will get better and better and then one day "prospect slope utopia" No more thugs... -
but thugs love dog bakeries and organic mitten emporiums too, my dude.
the goal wasn't to shatter notions of prospect heights as a great place to live, just to point out that its fundamental structure isn't conducive to a transformation into park slope, carroll gardens or williamsburg. shit, that might be a good thing. i'm just playing urban planner here.
with rents what they are, is there any other reason (besides the fact that the main avenues are essentially highways) the area past flatbush is so far behind schedule in the typical amenities that accompany gentrification? -
Subject: Re: prospect heights will never be popping.
young snitch wrote: no matter how many new stores or restaurants open up, prospect heights will never be a charming destination spot or place where pedestrians will flock. flatbush, washington and vanderbilt, the three main commercial arteries, are just too wide and too teeming with speeding traffic for any sort of intimate neighborhood to ever evolve. it's too difficult to quickly cross and meet friends, and no one wants to sit at a sidewalk cafe with cars whizzing by at 50 miles an hour.
Astute observations. -
omg
who wants smith st?
one of my reasons to move to crown heights was to avoid that
(and passed on a house that was close to affordable in clinton hill because it was right off dekalb which is careening in that direction as well.) -
i personally find smith street and cobble hill the most soulless and lame neighborhood in brooklyn. the restaurants are nice, but other than that, it has no character besides faded spanish signs which now rest atop wine bars. but i would guess that plenty of people want to be smith street.
either way, i'm not making judgments on what's good or bad with this post, just exploring a theory. -
.... just to point out that its fundamental structure isn't conducive to a transformation into park slope, carroll gardens or williamsburg.
Ugh, who'd want that, anyway?! -
I'm a fan of the wide avenue as not conducive to business theory... the restaurants and stores of Flatbush and Atlantic don't get as much foot traffic as the narrower streets like Smith and Flatbush. I have never understood how the antique stores on Atlantic survive.
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Subject: Re: prospect heights will never be popping.
young snitch wrote: flatbush, washington and vanderbilt, the three main commercial arteries, are just too wide and too teeming with speeding traffic for any sort of intimate neighborhood to ever evolve. it's too difficult to quickly cross and meet friends, and no one wants to sit at a sidewalk cafe with cars whizzing by at 50 miles an hour.
I can think of plenty of wide avenues in other cities that are home to intimate sidewalk cafes and all sorts of neighborhood street life. Trees and traffic calming measures can do wonders. Better to have more rather than less space to work with.
smith street, bedford ave, 7th ave and 5th ave are all significantly more narrow and conducive to foot traffic
I believe there is a serious plan to turn Washington from into a green pedestrian / bike-friendly mall with no cross traffic. It's in a plan commissioned by the Mayor; I should dig it up again. -
dailyheights wrote: Flatbush Avenue is a wide way and they've even got outdoor cafes now.
To me, the sidewalk seating on Flatbush seems makeshift and pretentious. -
Subject: Re: prospect heights will never be popping.
I believe there is a serious plan to turn Washington from into a green pedestrian / bike-friendly mall with no cross traffic. It's in a plan commissioned by the Mayor; I should dig it up again.
Where did you get this information? I would love to hear more about this...
I have never heard this before. -
qtrain wrote: [quote=dailyheights]Flatbush Avenue is a wide way and they've even got outdoor cafes now.
To me, the sidewalk seating on Flatbush seems makeshift and pretentious.
I didn't think that seating on Flatbush would work, but having eaten outside several times now, well, it does. The foot traffic makes for interesting people watching, and I never really notice the vehicles... strangely. -
qtrain wrote: To me, the sidewalk seating on Flatbush seems makeshift and pretentious.
word. "look, we're cultured!" -
young snitch wrote: [quote=qtrain]To me, the sidewalk seating on Flatbush seems makeshift and pretentious.
word. "look, we're cultured!"
My special lady and I laugh at this all the time. Degustibus non disputandum and all that, but who wants to wash down a taco salad with mouthfuls of deisel fume? -
Don't all die of shock, but I agree with young snitch on this one, and said as much in earlier threads on similar topics. The lane changes on Vbilt help but there needs to be a median to stop the crazy U-turn people. And Flatbush is probably hopeless, traffic-wise. There's a huge difference between traffic and FOOT traffic.
One of my favorite books about livable spaces is "Suburban Nation," which is about how suburban spaces, designed to accommodate cars, are antithetical to street life. Flatbush isn't suburbia, but many of their observations apply. -
i also think ys makes some very good points. vanderbilt is definitely coming along, but would be so much more pleasant and conducive to pedestrian-dependent businesses and outdoor cafes if traffic were reined in.
we were told that dot plans to do just that, although i'm not sure where it stands. the repainting last spring to make single through lanes and left turn lanes is part of it.
(see previous thread here:
http://www.brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2555&highlight=vanderbilt)
supposedly a planted median is coming next, but it's unclear (at least to me) when or how, or even whether it's still on the boards. who cares about smith street? a one-lane, tree-lined vanderbilt would be great for our neighborhood. -
I'm not sure that I agree totally. What snitch says about Brooklyn is certainly true, but is that true in the city? When I think of the Village, almost all of the major avenues are wide and have many traffic lanes. 7th Avenue South, 6th Avenue and Broadway are all good examples of streets that are traffic heavy but still manage to have a vibrant business presence with that intimate neighborhood feel. Broadway isn't sidewalk cafe teritory but the other two certainly are. They are then coupled with the closer more intimate blocks like West Broadway, University Place, etc.
To me, what makes a larger street successful as a neighborhood destination is the presence of public transportation on the street. It brings a level of foot traffic that helps to develop the "destination" feel. Using that criteria, Flatbush could make it but Vanderbilt and Washington would have a harder time as they are bus only routes.I believe there is a serious plan to turn Washington from into a green pedestrian / bike-friendly mall with no cross traffic. It's in a plan commissioned by the Mayor; I should dig it up again.
I hope this isn't true. This is the kind of planning that will result in endless traffic jams. Streets like Underhill, Classon and Grand weren't intended to handle heavy truck traffic. With Vanderbilt losing a lane and no Washington Avenue smaller streets will have to absorb the overflow. Not a pretty picture. -
your point about the influence of subway stations on a street as a destination is an interesting one. that's another reason franklin and nostrand seem better candidates for heavy pedestrian traffic. i doubt i'll be around when it happens, but within three years, i'm betting that franklin start looking like this area's version of bedford/smith etc. it fits all the qualifications: narrow street, one way traffic, commercial space, and three subway stops.
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