prospect heights will never be popping.
Comments
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Subject: Re: prospect heights will never be popping.
Breuckelen wrote:
You can find it towards the end of the Garvin Report, which was leaked
Where did you get this information? I would love to hear more about this...
I have never heard this before.
in August. Washington Av from Eastern Parkway to Atlantic is specifically pointed
out for conversion to shared public green space, and there's a diagram of how it would
look. See pp.82-83. -
young snitch wrote: your point about the influence of subway stations on a street as a destination is an interesting one. that's another reason franklin and nostrand seem better candidates for heavy pedestrian traffic. i doubt i'll be around when it happens, but within three years, i'm betting that franklin start looking like this area's version of bedford/smith etc. it fits all the qualifications: narrow street, one way traffic, commercial space, and three subway stops.
and guns. -
young snitch - why are you posting this message in the first place? just curious.
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We may never be popping, but we will always be poppin' fresh!
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homeowner wrote: I'm not sure that I agree totally. What snitch says about Brooklyn is certainly true, but is that true in the city? When I think of the Village, almost all of the major avenues are wide and have many traffic lanes. 7th Avenue South, 6th Avenue and Broadway are all good examples of streets that are traffic heavy but still manage to have a vibrant business presence with that intimate neighborhood feel. Broadway isn't sidewalk cafe teritory but the other two certainly are. They are then coupled with the closer more intimate blocks like West Broadway, University Place, etc.
I think the theory that Young Snitch has proposed generally works but Manhattan is the exception. For the most part any street in Manhattan is open to pedestrian traffic and for the sheer fact that it is Manhattan people will venture into the various "hot spots."
To me, what makes a larger street successful as a neighborhood destination is the presence of public transportation on the street. It brings a level of foot traffic that helps to develop the "destination" feel. Using that criteria, Flatbush could make it but Vanderbilt and Washington would have a harder time as they are bus only routes.I believe there is a serious plan to turn Washington from into a green pedestrian / bike-friendly mall with no cross traffic. It's in a plan commissioned by the Mayor; I should dig it up again.
I hope this isn't true. This is the kind of planning that will result in endless traffic jams. Streets like Underhill, Classon and Grand weren't intended to handle heavy truck traffic. With Vanderbilt losing a lane and no Washington Avenue smaller streets will have to absorb the overflow. Not a pretty picture. -
pensodyssey wrote: We may never be popping, but we will always be poppin' fresh!
that goes without saying, my man. btw, is your username an homage to "penis odyssey"(vol. 1-7), the gay porn series starring marvius weatherby and dick elitt? -
Subject: Re: prospect heights will never be popping.
young snitch wrote: flatbush, washington and vanderbilt, the three main commercial arteries, are just too wide and too teeming with speeding traffic for any sort of intimate neighborhood to ever evolve. it's too difficult to quickly cross and meet friends, and no one wants to sit at a sidewalk cafe with cars whizzing by at 50 miles an hour.
I'm not a city planner but both Flatbush and Vanderbilt lead towards the monument and I believe city planners back in the day designed wide streets that lead towards monuments. See Paris, Rome, Berlin. Wide streets used to be the most important and busiest streets in a city. Also, people used to be into strolling on wide streets and you had all sorts of traffic (carriages, trolleys, wagons, people, etc.)
I just moved to Brooklyn and have yet to learn its history, so that's about all I can contribute. -
Wide avenues work if you have wide sidewalks. The Champs Elysee (sp?) in Paris is like 6 lanes wide, but also has huge sidewalks. As a result, you get a thriving cafe culture (prices a tad higher than Prospect Heights level) that is not killed off by the diesel fumes. Awful burritos though...
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Another good book on poor and decent urban planning is "The Geography of Nowhere" by William Kunstler.
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um....
Flatbush Avenue.....?
Young snitch, you are missing some major parts of urban planning:
There is a TON of residential in this area and THAT is what is conducive to foot traffic and businesses.
Washington Ave. will do just fine.
IF you built it, they will come.
The Museum on a Summer Day of of Eastern Parkway shatters your theory - there isnt even a decent place to eat around there - just the unpredictable fountains....
Sorry, you are wrong because this is still and URBAN environment with a subway and a lot of foot traffic - just no places to shop yet. Do you know what Washington Avenue looked like in the 1950s? -
young snitch wrote: [quote=pensodyssey]We may never be popping, but we will always be poppin' fresh!
that goes without saying, my man. btw, is your username an homage to "penis odyssey"(vol. 1-7), the gay porn series starring marvius weatherby and dick elitt?
I thought no one would ever discover my secret...
Actually, it's a homage to my favorite hockey team, one of my favorite books, and my profession. -
dailyheights wrote:
Have you walked passed Joyce Bakeshop on a Saturday or Sunday morning? Last weekend I thought I took a wrong turn and ended up in Wiliamsburg.
Vanderbilt has some fairly successful businesses now, but it's still very sleepy in terms of foot traffic (hence all the yawns 8) ) -
SevenOneEighty wrote: um....
Flatbush Avenue.....?
Young snitch, you are missing some major parts of urban planning:
There is a TON of residential in this area and THAT is what is conducive to foot traffic and businesses.
Washington Ave. will do just fine.
IF you built it, they will come.
The Museum on a Summer Day of of Eastern Parkway shatters your theory - there isnt even a decent place to eat around there - just the unpredictable fountains....
Sorry, you are wrong because this is still and URBAN environment with a subway and a lot of foot traffic - just no places to shop yet. Do you know what Washington Avenue looked like in the 1950s?
Washington Avenue, is not fine. Does everyone know that there isn't a merchants association anymore because the man in charge sunk it in the toilet and used the funding for a habit?
Healthy avenues like Vanderbilt have given businesses small funding for improvement.
There was an article in the NYtimes about Washington Avenue. It suggested that the spaces were to small for businesses.
There are vacant spaces but the owners carry cultural baggage that has left a bad taste in their mouths. They want to charge Park Slope rents for spaces that would be condemed by the building department, and want clothing stores.
Washington avenue's savior, really sorry to say is going to be a big time developer that can buy a bunch of spaces and change them. It is already happening on the Atlantic side of Washington. I just hope the developers have included retail spaces. Washington Avenue has a long way.
How do I know this? I am a propretor of a business there and know enough people including the moron that ran the merchants association. -
What exactly was WAMA supposed to do for the businesses? If I remember right, they had some start-up money, they had funds for storefront appeal... but what else?
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WhyFi wrote: What exactly was WAMA supposed to do for the businesses? If I remember right, they had some start-up money, they had funds for storefront appeal... but what else?
As a proprietor of a business as you are, on Washington Ave, you should have an idea of what a merchants association does.
A merchants association is there for the betterment of commerce. They can persuade the landlords and persuade potential renters about the area. They market the neighborhood and are suposed to ease commerce.
If one was to look at the transition of new businesses popping up in the neighborhood. There has been little or no incentive to start one vs. Vanderbilt and others.
There is a reason that the Heart of Brooklyn has parked their headquarters on Washington Ave.
The other thing to keep in mind was that there was no way to oust the former and defunct president of the WAMA association. Politicians couldn't get rid of him. He did it to himself. -
You yuppies whine too much. Back before you guys started gentrifying up this nabe' we had no currency. Exchanged corner rights instead.
(kidding/anti-flame: search "gentriconfrontation". Has it been that long?) -
From what I hear the WAMA is/was an empty storefront that didnt really do that much to help. It was a good idea but poorly executed.
Listen there already ARE businesses on Washington Avenue - just not the kind you ncessarily want, you yuppies ( babrbers, hair dressers, liquor stores, hardware store) and those spaces are obvioulsly large enough for business.
I would say on average, they are no smaller than the ones on 5th avenue.
Seriously, NYers can put a business in a shoe-box. What about street vendors to take on the foot traffic?Give it more time people. It is still early in the game. Wide streets do NOT eqaul bad business as previously stated in this thread. There are many factors preventing development but they are mostly related to folks being greedy or having a lack of vision. The newer residential developments - which are happening all around.
It will take some poilitical maneuvering and maybe even rezoning, but it will happen - just like it has in every other place. But I dont expect it to be Park Slope. I expect it to be Propsect Heights. But I am ALL for the "developer" option if they keep the scale reasonable and don't go all "Ratner" and EIFS on us.
ONE decent "coffee house" can change the street and take it over the edge. -
Breuckelen wrote: As a proprietor of a business as you are, on Washington Ave, you should have an idea of what a merchants association does.
Although I'd like to take more credit, saying that I'm a proprietor of the business is a gross overstatement of my contributions and diminishes from my wife's accomplishments. I serve only as a cheerleader and a sounding board. In any event, WAMA had been long gone before the thought of a store popped in to my wife's head, so other than the funding info on their website, it wasn't clear to me what their role was... I can certainly see how a having someone to play advocate for potential business owner would be helpful with some of the landlords holding on to vacant storefronts... and it seems like Heart of Brooklyn is picking up on some slack in marketing of the neighborhood... Not to belittle anyone's efforts, but certainly more can and should be done, but the million dollar question is... by whom?
A merchants association is there for the betterment of commerce. They can persuade the landlords and persuade potential renters about the area. They market the neighborhood and are suposed to ease commerce.
If one was to look at the transition of new businesses popping up in the neighborhood. There has been little or no incentive to start one vs. Vanderbilt and others.
There is a reason that the Heart of Brooklyn has parked their headquarters on Washington Ave.
The other thing to keep in mind was that there was no way to oust the former and defunct president of the WAMA association. Politicians couldn't get rid of him. He did it to himself.
As I'm sure you can attest, many of the owners have the proper motivation, but time would be a big issue, as would compensation, I think. Having someone who's only job is to work on the behalf of the merchants would be ideal, but the WAMA piss-ant screwed the pooch on that one, and I wouldn't be surprised to see doubt and hesitation from merchants if something similar were proposed... And maybe you can shed a little light on this - where did the funding for WAMA come from? -
I agree that WAMA was useless, because it never did anything. I have been involved in trying to boost this situation and there are a few that are trying to do this also. Who ever is to run the new organization is going to need the trust of those landlords that have been around. It is not going to be an easy task.
The funding comes from tax dollars to boost those neighborhoods in need. It is easier for the city to give the money to a place like WAMA and have them distribute the funds. The WAMA guy was making up to 70K for what he was in charge of. That's hardly volunteer work -
dan.h wrote: You yuppies whine too much. Back before you guys started gentrifying up this nabe' we had no currency. Exchanged corner rights instead.
i hear you, dude. there was once a time when you could get a carwash and a haircut for three beef patties and a foot massage (sans happy ending, if you didn't need the whip waxed).
(kidding/anti-flame: search "gentriconfrontation". Has it been that long?) -
Breuckelen wrote: I agree that WAMA was useless, because it never did anything. I have been involved in trying to boost this situation and there are a few that are trying to do this also. Who ever is to run the new organization is going to need the trust of those landlords that have been around. It is not going to be an easy task.
Agreed - it will be tough, it will be time consuming, and it'll take a while...Breuckelen wrote: The funding comes from tax dollars to boost those neighborhoods in need. It is easier for the city to give the money to a place like WAMA and have them distribute the funds. The WAMA guy was making up to 70K for what he was in charge of. That's hardly volunteer work
Okay, that's kinda what I suspected - it would be in their best interest to have thriving businesses; more sales means more sales tax and property taxes will get a bump from increasing home values.
70k seems fair to me, if results are seen.
So, what steps need to be taken to start another organization to head up the efforts? My wife has more than enough on her plate, but I might be able to contribute to your efforts in her place. -
yo dan.h
love your crimson fist veteran seargent avatar
do you play?dan.h wrote: You yuppies whine too much. Back before you guys started gentrifying up this nabe' we had no currency. Exchanged corner rights instead.
(kidding/anti-flame: search "gentriconfrontation". Has it been that long?) -
whyfi, which store is your wife's?
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For the record, as long as I've had a shop on Vanderbilt, the Merchant's Asscociation DID NOT give money or other goods to any of us. For longer than 2 years ago, I don't know, but I doubt it.
We pay dues TO the MA, not get money from it. The benefits are that we advertise together {paid by the VMA}, and know each other, which makes a huge difference. -
sje wrote: For the record, as long as I've had a shop on Vanderbilt, the Merchant's Asscociation DID NOT give money or other goods to any of us. For longer than 2 years ago, I don't know, but I doubt it.
You might want to check on what they did two years back. I have heard that there were incentives to open a business on Vanderbilt. I guess Vanderbilt has proven themselves as a commerce thoroughfare or maybe you can ask the VMA to see if there is a program?
We pay dues TO the MA, not get money from it. The benefits are that we advertise together {paid by the VMA}, and know each other, which makes a huge difference. -
WhyFi wrote: [quote=Breuckelen]I agree that WAMA was useless, because it never did anything. I have been involved in trying to boost this situation and there are a few that are trying to do this also. Who ever is to run the new organization is going to need the trust of those landlords that have been around. It is not going to be an easy task.
Agreed - it will be tough, it will be time consuming, and it'll take a while...Breuckelen wrote: The funding comes from tax dollars to boost those neighborhoods in need. It is easier for the city to give the money to a place like WAMA and have them distribute the funds. The WAMA guy was making up to 70K for what he was in charge of. That's hardly volunteer work
Okay, that's kinda what I suspected - it would be in their best interest to have thriving businesses; more sales means more sales tax and property taxes will get a bump from increasing home values.
70k seems fair to me, if results are seen.
So, what steps need to be taken to start another organization to head up the efforts? My wife has more than enough on her plate, but I might be able to contribute to your efforts in her place.
There are a few proprietors on Washington that have been talking and trying to take action on developing a plan. I don't know where they stand at the moment. I don't want to take the liberty of posting their names on this site without their permission.
I believe that action comes through Councilmember Letica James' office. You might want to give her office a call? -
Young Snitch said:
...flatbush, washington and vanderbilt, the three main commercial arteries, are just too wide and too teeming with speeding traffic for any sort of intimate neighborhood to ever evolve. it's too difficult to quickly cross and meet friends, and no one wants to sit at a sidewalk cafe with cars whizzing by at 50 miles an hour.
Question:
Do we know for a fact that Washington Avenue is physically WIDER (on average) than 5th or 7th avenue in Park Slope? What is their physical difference in width?
Just curious.
Flatbush has been quite successful with the sidewalk cafe ( the Burrito Place). But I do think both Vandy and flatbush have wider sidewalks... -
I'm 100% sure the Vanderbilt Avenue Merchants Assoc has Zero money to finance new businesses on the street. That's somebodies wishful thinking.
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EasternPkwy wrote: whyfi, which store is your wife's?
Natural Heights. -
sje wrote: I'm 100% sure the Vanderbilt Avenue Merchants Assoc has Zero money to finance new businesses on the street. That's somebodies wishful thinking.
It isn't about financing. It is for capital improvements like an awning or signage. It is usually used for exterior aesthetics, thus making the neighborhood look better. Ask them, it can't hurt. They might not want to make this funding public.
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