Crown Heights Dress Code
http://gothamist.com/2014/07/25/please_dress_modestly_orders_crown.php
Signs put up in Crown Heights:
"Love and Respect," it reads, with "love" printed in gentle, sloping red cursive. "Respect," though, has a sharper tone, with white block letters suggesting a Machiavellian sternness. "Dear Resident, Guest, Visitor," it goes on. "PLEASE DRESS MODESTLY. THIS IS A JEWISH NEIGHBORHOOD."
Comments
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Yeah they love to pull this shit. Question is will their quasi police force harass people who don't dress to their standards?
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If people were walking around naked (in a manner that violated NYC laws), then the beef would be more legitimate. While I understand that segment of the (orthodox Jewish) community has certain stringent standards for modesty, there's not much recourse here, unless that part of the neighborhood were to become private a la Sea Gate.
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The Crown Heights Orthodox (aka Lubavitch) seem far more mellow about dress than the Williamsburg Orthodox (aka Satmars).
Both groups give public tours:
Williamsburg: http://hasidicwilliamsburgtour.com/
CH: https://jewishtours.com/dt_portfolio/congregation-lubavitch-770-eastern-parkway/
When I went on the Lubavitch tour, we toured some of the group's most religious sites and the guide seemed to distance himself (and therefore the community) from its most radical members.
...like those who post flyers on poles telling people how to dress. -
No official recourse, certainly, but it is legal for a woman to walk down Kingston wearing nothing but a thong in NYC - that doesn't mean they won't harrass you, throw things, etc. - they certainly have: http://gothamist.com/2013/01/30/hasidic_vigilantes_williamsburgs_mo.phpIn Israel, ultra-Orthodox Jewish girls have been attacked for baring their legs not wearing stockings. An elderly woman was also beaten by the modesty police in Jerusalem.Yosef Rapaport, a Hasidic journalist, explained, "There are quite a few men, especially in Williamsburg, who consider themselves Gut’s polizei [God's police]... It’s somebody who is a busybody, and they’re quite a few of them — zealots who take it upon themselves and they just enforce. They’re considered crazy, but people don’t want to confront them."
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I think the neighborhood is going to have a lot more of this as the residential population trends whiter. The Hasidim didn't care what any of the black residents wore as they were very easily distinguished as "other". Now that the neighborhood is filling up with non-religious Sarahs, Rachels and Aarons I expect that the culture wars around dress and modesty (both for guys and girls) are REALLY going to kick off, especially south of EP where the concentrations of Hasidic families are much greater.
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I think the neighborhood is going to have a lot more of this as the residential population trends whiter. The Hasidim didn't care what any of the black residents wore as they were very easily distinguished as "other". Now that the neighborhood is filling up with non-religious Sarahs, Rachels and Aarons I expect that the culture wars around dress and modesty (both for guys and girls) are REALLY going to kick off, especially south of EP where the concentrations of Hasidic families are much greater.
Here's something funny - yesterday evening I saw a black Orthodox Jewish couple walking west on Eastern Parkway between Classon and Franklin. (I could tell by the way the woman was dressed- modestly with a wig. The guy's tzitzit was visible below the hem of his shirt.) -
I observed a few black Lubavitch at the kids parade a few months ago:
http://www.brooklynian.com/discussion/43978/that-really-big-parade-on-eastern-parkway-for-orthodox-jewish-kids-may-18-2014-10-am/p1
But I am with homeowner, I don't think Naquan or Destiny have much to worry about now or in the future.
Ms. Whynot (on the otherhand) is visibly Jewish. She informs me that she ocassionally gets disapproving looks in CH, yet still feels comfortable getting "real bagels" on Kingston while wearing pants.
However, when we find ourselves walking thru the Satmar area of Bedford Avenue on a hot day, she is uncomfortable to the degree that I am the one who is to go into the store to buy a big bottle of water.
...because there, similar signs are not posted by outliers on poles; they are posted by STOREKEEPERS on store doors.
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Woman have also had acid thrown on them when they do not dress modestly. Midwood is also more liberal than BP. But CH seems to be one of the most liberal out of the Ultra-Orthodox with regard to dress. By far, the Hasidic community is the most conservative. Naomi Ragen has written some really good books about the communities.
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NY Magazine did a piece on Black Hasids a few years ago. Oprah also did a piece several years ago when she came to Crown Heights. She actually interviewed a Black Lubavich family.
http://nymag.com/news/features/black-jews-2012-12/ -
Most importantly; whynot, where are the "realbagels" to be found on Kingston?
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The guy on page 2, Nechemyah Davis, is clearly an outlier.
My sense is most of the black jews are jewish by virture of having a Jewish mother. He, on the otherhand, converted and is now Lubavitch.
I don't know that the Satmars accept someone who was not jewish converting ....much less someone who was really VISIBLY not previously jewish.
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@Crownheightster -
I don't believe she has a preference between the various bagel places on Kingston. She just prefers small chewy bagels to big puffy ones, and Kingston exclusively carries small chewy ones.
However, as you may be aware, Kingston is closed on Saturdays. So, weekend bagels are often purchased on Saturday mornings from Prospect Perk (Flatbush and Sterling), which carries small chewy bagels made by Bagel Hole (7th Ave and 12th in the slope).
This preference/routine has survived the arrival of:
-Lula on Nostrand,
-Old Bagel Shop on Vanderbilt,
-That place on Franklin I can't remember the name of, and
-Nostrand Ave Bagels at Pacific. -
Speaking as a non-religious, white, Jewish male who has lived in the heart of Lubavitch Crown Heights for 38 years now, I can say that I have never been harassed or even chided for not wearing anything close to the standard, Lubavitch "uniform." I routinely wear shorts wherever I go in CH during the summer months and am often working in my front garden in sweat shorts and a tank top. Absolutely never a problem. I don't doubt that the situation in Williamsburg may be different, but I've never seen the "modesty police" of W'burg or Mea Shearim in my neighborhood.As to bagels, though, my favorites come from a Korean-owned shop on 4th Ave and 86th St in Bay ridge. They are chewy (VERY important to me) and they have a yeasty taste. They are a bit heavier than the CH ones I've had, though.
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I remember a while back there was a bike route put thru (or they wanted to put one) thru Williamsburg, and the Hasidic community was concerned about the dress of folks, mainly woman, who would ride around.
In general, I think the standard of modest dress is more enforced for women. Men are expected to avert there eyes. I know of men who intentionally wear glasses with distorted vision so they don't see clearly when outside.
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Having lived there, I can assure you that there are no separate modesty laws in Sea Gate. The neighborhood manages a lot of its own services and the beaches, but it is a part of New York City and otherwise totally controlled by New York City laws. There is a large Satmar Hasidic minority that has moved there over the last 25 or so years for a variety of reasons, but "ability to make their own laws" is not one of them!
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Laws have the backing of fines, imprisonment and other such penalties.
The dress code issue is a norm, with penalties that may include scorn, and (in my Satmar/Williamsburg example) possibly the refusal to sell someone a bottle of water.
Yes, women seem to be the target of the laws. My bare male legs in shorts seem to cause either less offense, or at least less reaction.
....Likely a combination or my maleness and my "Irish/from the Midwest" appearance. -
What really bothers me is the use of "guest" and "visitor." As if they own the neighborhood like I own my living room. Well I rent but same difference for this. The sidewalk is a public space open to all members of the public to enjoy.It seems to be a recurring theme that certain groups believe they have exclusive dominion over parts of Crown Heights. They seem inclined to believe that they have final say over who comes, who goes and how they behave. I'm a free man in a first world democracy. I'll do as I please as long as it's legal and socially responsible. That being said I occasionally question peoples fashion sense. However, it's not my place to try and control what they wear or where they wear it. It's called life, puts on sunglasses, deal with it.I know the Lubavitchs are way chiller than the Satmars. However both groups still have significant issues with sexism. Actually I'd argue that in many ways both groups have yet to enter the last century in that respect.
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The interesting thing about the Lubavitch is that some believe by dressing Frum (and observing other traditions and rules) the messiah will come sooner. Some want the messiah to come now, or at least within their lifetime.
Hence, (to varying degrees) they find outsiders (and outside media) to be hazardous, because it will cause Lubavitch members to be less observant/Frum and the messiah's arrival to be delayed.
Related reading: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frum
My question is "Would the individual(s) who posted the signs voluntarily adhere to the customs and dress of another faith in the event that they found themselves in a highly religious neighborhood?"
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@whynot_31 Probably not. In my experience different religious groups feel the right to demand total and complete respect for their religions yet at the same time refusing to give other religions the same level of respect. Also, why should they have to change their dress in a different neighborhood? They have to right to wear pretty much whatever they want as does everyone else. Yay! Hypocrisy!
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One could argue that the area around the University of Chicago has a very distinct culture and norms, that adherents see as being the only way to success and should be abided by.
Geek ness in dress and behavior at a Frum level. -
Note to readers: The University of Chicago (S Hyde Park) was picked for this example because my sister is an alum and remains in the immediate neighborhood despite now having a family and being 49 years old.
Other highly academic settings, as well the cultures that surround military bases, would also work for this illustration.
...the adherents wish for the culture to be maintained. -
I would agree that they would not adhere to the dress codes of another faith. This orthodoxy is based on the belief of being the chosen. Anyone else is not chosen and therefore outside the faith.
Ah, Hyde Park. Not too far way is Moody Bible Institute (extremely evangelical Christian college). This school is almost ultra-orthodox in the level of "frumness" that is expected of the youth who attend, especially the girls. I know in the 80s and 90s, the Cabrini Green neighborhood was dangerous. Perhaps comparable to Crown Heights. I never heard of instance where the folks who lived in the projects were expected to dress more modestly. -
Yeah, as the hipsterfication of Crown Heights continues, I wonder how the Hasidm are going to cope with that.
I'm actually surprised a bit that more of the community hasn't yet decamped en masse to some village upstate.
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Yes, on Crownheights.info and other websites that serve the area, I occasionally read posts from Lubavitch young people who complain that their Lubavitch landlord is demanding rents that they can not afford.
The posts go on to state that they feel the landlords should only rent to people who are Lubavitch and the landlords should not choose profit over "obligations to the community".
...Making me believe that present yuppie/hipster invasion is certainly being felt by the less fortunate/younger Lubavitches, as well as Lubavitch property owners.
....however, I stop short of agreeing with bkchickie's surprise, because orthodox upstate villages do not have what the rabbinic students seek: Notably, proximity to 770 EP. -
Don't forget that the Lubavitch own a LOT of the CH properties. Not all, by any means, but a significant amount. The Rebbe told them they should not move away and, in the past 20 years since his death, mostly they haven't. I doubt they're going to start moving now. Young emissaries move all over the world, but that is an entirely different matter. There are also significant Lubavtich communities in Florida and Israel, for example, and there are areas upstate and in the Poconos where L. have summer homes, but their base is here.As to the modesty signs, they are mostly about the women, the Lubavitch women, not everyone else. The significance of these reminders is that they may affect a woman's marriageability or the possibility of her siblings to find a "suitable" mate. If a married woman, for example, does not cover her hair in public, has sleeves above the elbow, or wears skirts that are not appropriately modest when she sits down, her children may no longer be considered desirable spouses. If a Chinese girl, though, enters a local store, even though she does not dress in the desired way, she will still be politely served. (I know -- I've had several stay at my house over the years.) Also, I've definitely seen Lubavitch lead small tour groups, including women in pants (a big no-no) around the neighborhood. As a matter of fact, I saw one such group this morning being shown into the mikveh.I don't think the local hipsters have to worry too much about CH dress codes.
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But does, as @homeowner and I assert, a Jewish female hipster/yuppie?
For the heck of it, lets call her Rachel (not Ms Whynot's actual first name).
Imagine a woman which 99% of adult Jews, and 85% of adult people who have lived in NYC for more than 2 years, could identify as Jewish....
No further description offered or needed.
According to some, she either should be Lubavitch, or IS Lubavitch and straying by her attire.
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A Jewish female hipster/yuppie does not need to worry; no one needs to worry.
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She and I do not.
She buys bagels on Kingston, and shakes her head at the idea that Gothamist is a news source.
It is entertainment. -
Ever try Bunch o' Bagels on Troy between Carroll and Crown? I prefer them over Kingston.
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I have not.
Is it safe to assume they are also closed on Saturday?
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