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Crown Heights Dress Code - Page 2 — Brooklynian

Crown Heights Dress Code

2

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  • southeast
    southeast
    edited July 2014
    Yes; they are closed on Saturday.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    edited July 2014
    ...which means they are also closed Friday after work.

    So, as a result of working M - F 9 -5, I'd have to get my weekend's bagels on Thursday evening. ....nope, not going to happen.

    But I'll try them some Sunday.
  • southeast
    southeast
    True.  I was thinking in place of Kingston which has the same restrictions...
  • nothinlikeabklyngirl
    nothinlikeabklyngirl
    Modesty seems to be having a media moment. 


    Brooklyn modest fashion boutique posts pic of Muslim woman wearing its clothes: http://www.refinery29.com/2014/07/71342/orthodox-hijab-controversy
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    edited July 2014
    I imagine concern about modesty spikes every summer.

    ....very few men or women show much skin in Febuary.

  • ehgee
    ehgee
    Don't forget that the Lubavitch own a LOT of the CH properties. Not all, by any means, but a significant amount. The Rebbe told them they should not move away and, in the past 20 years since his death, mostly they haven't. I doubt they're going to start moving now.
    They'll probably just start moving to and developing in places like Wingate and western Brownsville, where property is still cheap. Just like the Satmars are moving to "New Williamsburg" aka northern Bed-Stuy.

    Hopefully they get some architects from whatever Orthodox Jews live in southern Flatbush/Midwood— they put up pretty nice stuff.
  • southeast
    southeast
    Lubavitch is already living in Wingate, and a sprinkle or two further east towards Rockaway Parkway.  They haven't crossed Rockaway into Brownsville yet, and I'm not sure if they ever will.  There is still quite a bit of space in Wingate which is still relatively affordable and closer to their center.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    I'm interested in seeing at what point they will decide Lincoln Park is "safe enough".

    4 years?
  • southeast
    southeast
    That is a very good question.  I know that my family, and many others, would love to hang out at Lincoln Terrace Park.  We currently go to Hamilton Metz Field, which doesn't have real greenery, when we don't have the energy to walk to Brower Park and want to give the kids a place to run around.  We don't find St. Johns Park too safe either.  It's a shame; there is so much space that, practically, is out of bounds.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    edited July 2014

    This writer of this article expresses the views I alluded to above:

    "Modesty is associated with the safety of our nation and especially our soldiers. For all those who trust that a Mezuzah does make a difference, then please accept that modesty also makes a difference. (There are sources, but I am not going to explore the sources in this article.) If only until the end of the current hostilities – please cover up for the sake of our soldiers – they are combating Hamas – please combat your personal feelings and give the soldiers extra protection that a Jewish woman has the power to give."

    She continues:

    "Power Dressing with a purpose. Power Dressing with the agenda of being dressed and ready… to greet Moshiach Now."

    http://crownheights.info/op-ed/448597/op-ed-power-dressing/

    If one believes as she does, then an immodestly dressed woman is a threat to the jewish nation (which can be defined as a the Lubavitch area of Crown Heights, not just Israel), as well as those who care about it and defend it.

    Modest dress prepares one for the arrival of the messiah/Moshiach, which is believed to only happen when jews are prepared for it.


    Note that modest dress is said to have powers similar to the Mezuzah, in providing what seems akin to "protection against threats" and/or "divine grace". 


  • southeast
    southeast
    edited August 2014
    If one believes as she does, then an immodestly dressed woman is a threat to the jewish nation (which can be defined as a the Lubavitch area of Crown Heights, not just Israel), as well as those who care about it and defend it.

    Modest dress prepares one for the arrival of the messiah/Moshiach, which is believed to only happen when jews are prepared for it.
    @whynot_31 - I must applaud you for your ability to communicate these "foreign" concepts, in my opinion, quite accurately.

    I would revise the sentence slightly to read as follows:  "If one believes as she does, then an immodestly dressed women is a threat to the Jewish nation, wherever they may live (which can be defined as a the Lubavitch area of Crown Heights, not just Israel), as well as..."  

    My reason for removing your definition is that if one believes as she does, it applies to all Jews, everywhere, and the Jewish nation is not defined by those living in CH and Israel.  I feel that it is fair to say that all (Orthodox/observant) Jews would agree with her on the concept of modesty and its implications, and I want to highlight that most Jews live outside of CH and Israel; CH is simply where Lubavitch is based and Israel is simply a place where many Jews live.

    (Now, the strict definition of what is considered modestly dressed is up for debate.  As an exercise, walk down the heart of Jewish Williamsburg and Lubavitch CH and compare the dress.  However, the concept of modesty and its implications is, for the most part, not debated, and there are universally accepted rules such as covering knees and elbows.)

    Apologies if I'm stating the obvious...

  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    edited August 2014
    The Lubavitch's belief that ALL JEWS (aka "the nation", "tribe", "race") must be prepared in order for the Messiah to arrive is central to this discussion.

    - It factors into the "excuse me, are you Jewish?" outreach that regularly happens locally, and the Chabad centers throughout the world.

    - As it relates to modesty, it is their response to accusations from outside of their community that they are oppressive to women. Succinctly, their response seems to be: "We are not here to abide by your cultural norms. Yes, we ask that Jewish women sacrifice a lot in order to prepare for the Messiah. We ask similar things from men."

    My jabbering about the Lubavitch neighborhood being similar to Israel stems from my understanding that Jewish communities are ideally pretty compact, and perhaps even distinct. I think it can best be seen in the idea that one must live close enough to synagogue to WALK to it.
  • southeast
    southeast
    edited August 2014
    @whynot_31 - I was under the impression that the discussion was about dress code and modesty, and not about Messiah directly.

    All observant Jews believe that everything one does is in preparation for the Messiah, so yes, it relates to modestly as well as it relates to everything else (eating kosher, praying, etc.) in the lives of an observant Jew.  Lubavitch is just more focused on outreach to fellow Jews and brings these concepts to the public eye; hence the "excuse me, are you Jewish?"

    However, the op-ed is not discussing Messiah; she is discussing the implications of being modestly dressed to protect Jewish soldiers.  She does finish off with "... to greet Moshiach now" as it is common to do so when discussing such topics, but it is not the focal point; just a reminder that this is what they are striving towards and that addressing this topic will hopefully help them get there.

    Jewish communities are more in common with each other than they are different, so I would not call them distinct for purposes of this discussion.  The distinction is as it relates to intricacies. As for Israel, it has many different communities, observant and non-observant, Jewish and non-Jewish.

    Depending on how you define a Jewish community, it can be spread out over a couple miles or even around the world, particularly if you define the community as members of the "sect,"  which many do.  A Lubavitcher living in Canada will identify themselves as part of the Lubavitch community, similarly, Satmer.  

    The idea that one must live close enough to synagogue has nothing to do with a "community."  It is simply a matter of convenience as they can't use a vehicle, and they don't want to walk too far to get to the synagogue. One community will likely have multiple synagogues if it is spread out over a large area and/or has a large population (it may be for other reasons as well, such as space constraints, cliques, etc.)


  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    edited August 2014
    Whether intentional or not, such rules certainly foster community.

    I found it interesting that the writer appealed to women to dress modestly to protect the soliders presently fighting to protect Israel.

    It seemed to try to put some immediacy on it.

    In my view, the Lubavitch are always trying to put immediacy on things: They seem to believe the Rebbe's arrival and death means that the Messiah is due to come within their lifetimes, whereas other jews are far less than certain.

    Some reportedly believe that the Rebbe even WAS the messiah.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Mendel_Schneerson

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chabad_messianism

    In believing that one's manner of dress protects soldiers actively fighting for Israel, she (and I suspect other Lubavitch) view god as being very interventionist and responsive to human actions.

    ...which seems to be an inherent part of all highly religious groups.



  • southeast
    southeast
    In believing that one's manner of dress protects soldiers actively fighting for Israel, she (and I suspect other Lubavitch) view god as being very interventionist and responsive to human actions.

    ...which seems to be an inherent part of all highly religious groups.




    "In believing that increasing ones observance one's manner of dress protects soldiers actively fighting for Israel, she,  and observant Jewish communities around the world, (and I suspect other Lubavitch) view god as being very interventionist and responsive to human actions..." as they believe in all circumstances.

    I'm trying to point out that this is not just a Lubavitch thing.  You are reading a Lubavitch website where a Lubavticher woman chose to focus on modesty.  Other communities have been pushing other Mitzvahs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitzvah) in honor of the soldiers.

    With regard to your view on Lubavitch, you are stereotyping based on those who make the most noise, but that is human nature, and I understand that.  Just trying to show another side of the same coin.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    edited August 2014
    I'd like to believe I appreciate the other sides.

    The key word is "observant".

    The word is complicated in that one can view themselves as "observant", while others do not.

    For example, some may even view themselves as observant, while not believing in an interventionist god.

    At its worst, this lack of objective definition causes people to purport that others are not christian/jewish/muslim/etc, because they do not practice their faith in the same manner as others.

    More commonly, they are referred to as "cafeteria" catholics/jews/etc, in that they are purported to pick and choose which parts of their religion they prefer. ....they are assigned an inferior status of being "non-observant", lapsed or lost.

    Often, they are perceived as being a threat to those who practice their faith differently. It seems to play out in various religions, with various intensities.


  • xlizellx
    xlizellx
    This is a fascinating conversation.....and am thankful that my liberal Christian upbringing never made me feel that my clothing choices had baring on the safety of a bunch of 16 and 17 year olds carrying machine guns.  Also that I wouldn't be raptured because of my outfit.  I don't think I could have handled that.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    edited August 2014
    I like believing that the rapture has already happened, that we were left behind, and that we should make the best of it.

    ....because it isn't going to happen again.
  • southeast
    southeast
    The topic of discussion is Jewish observant.  For the most part, everyone agrees on how that is defined.  I don't believe non-observant is an inferior status.  

    The  level of observance, or lack thereof, is a personal choice that one is usually proud of, and a non-observant Jew will, in most instances, describe himself as such.  

    Non-observant Jews are not a "threat" to observant Jews; although, an observant Jew may make a choice not to commingle with non-observant Jews, at least in a situation which they deem improper, in order to avoid being influenced; this is more common in ultra orthodox circles.  For instance, an observant Jew may avoid hanging out in the street, go to clubs, etc. with a non-observant Jew, but may still invite a non-observant Jew for a Shabbat meal at their home, while requesting that they dress and act as they deem appropriate.  

    All Jews, for the most part, see themselves as brothers and sisters and "love" each other despite their differences.  When I hear the word "threat," I think of something that requires defending, and it makes me think of an example where one who practices the same faith but differently is considered a threat to the others practicing the same faith as they deem appropriate and is persecuted.  Jews don't consider other Jews, despite what they believe in, as "threats."
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    I believe that all systems (cultures, faiths, etc) do what they can to perserve their integrity.

    It is counter intuitive, but accepting those who are different often preserves a group's identity; it provides an illusion of diversity and choice that many people crave.

    Successful systems limit the intensity of such exposure.
  • bobmarvin
    bobmarvin
    There's actually little love list between secular Jews, like me, and the ultra-orthodox. I May not see them as an embarrassment to the degree that my parents and grandparents, assimilated German Jews, did but the Lubuvitchers, in particular, with their obtrusive "outreach", Are a PITA, to say the least. I'm glad I live south of Empire Blvd.

  • morralkan
    morralkan
    whynot and southeast ----- 
    If you go to Lincoln Terrace Park during the day, you will sometimes find groups of young, Lubavitch boys, accompanied by their teachers, playing in the park there on the swings, slides, etc. And I have seen some Lubavitch, not a lot, sitting on benches there.  On  a nice day, i will sometimes walk through LTP on my way to my favorite local pizza place, Tony's, on Rutland Rd. It really is not scary at all; you should try using it. Of course, it may seem less threatening to me because I remember playing there as a boy 55 - 60 years ago. I'm not saying I would hang out there at night, but there's nothing scary about it during the daytime.
  • morralkan
    morralkan
    Bob, while I may not have the slightest desire to become Lubavitch, I don't have any difficulty living right in the middle of the community as I have for the past 38 years. Do I occasionally get asked if I want to lay tefillin or schuckle a lulaf and esrog? Sure, but it is extremely rare that anyone is persistent. If I get invited for Shabbos (or Pesach or Succos) dinner, they certainly do not expect me to wear anything approaching the Lubavitch "uniform." A simple yarmulke along with a shirt and pants is all that is expected. (I've been in the room with women dinner guests who have not worn a wig or headscarf either.) I've never heard ANY discussion of how modesty is important as a way of supporting the coming of the messiah either. While such topics may be discussed on COLlive or at some Lubavitcher Women's Organization education meetings, this is not something that is prevalent around here.

    Believe me, Bob, I'm as secular as one can get, but aside from disliking a few individual Lubavitch (that happens in any community), I've never found them an embarrassment. A bit of a curiosity in some ways, but that's about it. Neither my parents (my father was born in 1910) nor my grandparents (who were orthodox by default) had problems with them either, and we were all VERY much assimilated. My refugee German Jewish neighbors on Eastern Parkway didn't have a problem with them or find them embarrassing either. Not even a question of little love lost. 

    I'm sort of glad I live NORTH of Empire Blvd.
  • whynot_31
    whynot_31
    As discussed above, their bagels are quite good.
  • morralkan
    morralkan
    I agree with you about Bunch o' Bagels, though my favorites are still out on 4th Ave and 86th St.
  • bobmarvin
    bobmarvin
    morralkin,

    I have similar negative reactions to Jehovah's Witnesses who ring my doorbell. I have no use for any flavor of superstitious nonsense. The Lubuvitchers are just a bit closer to home
  • morralkan
    morralkan
    I mind the Jehovah's Witnesses more since they are actually ringing my doorbell and intruding on my personal space.

  • bobmarvin
    bobmarvin
    I find being bothered on the Street even more obtrusive. Also, when I stopped telling the Jehovah's Witnesses to f**k off and asked them to stop coming they actually complied. Nevertheless I think all missionaries are scum.
  • Dawndew
    Dawndew
    This is a Jewish neighborhood? Its a Brooklyn mash-up.
  • morralkan
    morralkan
    Well, it's certainly not as uniformly Jewish  as parts of Williamsburg and Boro Park, but it is nonetheless heavily Jewish.
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