Flatbush Avenue might get reconfigured
Flatbush Avenue between Empire Blvd/Ocean Ave and Nostrand Ave
photo and more info:
Once drivers lose the ability to double park, businesses which depend on this (bakeries, street vendors, etc) are going to have to adjust.
I have a big theory that this is related to the massive amounts of money and energy presently being put into renovating the Kings Theater.
Comments
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I heard about this on the Q at Parkside's blog as well.This traffic realignment is overdue. Traffic along that stretch is often a mess. The doubleparking by customers and delivery trucks and the dollar vans darting in between lanes contribute to that mess.re: "Once drivers lose the ability to double park" - That will only matter if it's enforced! ETA: It's not being enforced sufficiently now!I also think that Flatbush Avenue is too narrow to support the amount of traffic that travels on it as a two-way street.
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Time will tell whether DeBlasio is able to get the police to spend more effort on traffic enforcement.
The cops I know think it is "below them" -
Maybe the NYPD should see it this way: Enforcement might be a way to increase revenue for the city. Everyone else wins (except those receiving the tickets).I wonder whether the cops felt the same way when there was that crackdown on farebeating and other seemingly minor "quality of life" crimes during the Giuliani administration. Yet, people loved to claim that it helped to reduce crime (including much more serious crimes).
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Those crimes are often addressed by transit cops and Impact Zone cops.
Transit cops see such crimes as part of their jobs.
Impact Zone cops are newbies, and also see it as part of their jobs because they know that they must do it to someday be part of the class that believes it "doesn't have to such things anymore" ....the class that rides around in a RMP.Guess what's needed to make a traffic stop? Yup, an RMP. -
I have a dream where Flatbush will be mostly car-free (like the Fulton Street Mall) and will instead be buses - including SBS B41. It shouldn't take so long to get to Kings Plaza...but it does.
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It shouldn't take that long to get to and from the Junction either-but it does. The Target by the Junction and the Target at Atlantic Terminal are roughly equidistant from my house. Yet going to the Junction takes much longer, even on a Limited bus. Taking the B44 SBS NB from the Junction to Empire Boulevard is much faster than taking the B41 Limited.I suspect the only way a B41 SBS will work is, at least between Nostrand and Empire, if it were rerouted away from Flatbush like the MTA did the NB B44 SBS.ETA: I'd like to see the dollar vans rerouted on Bedford between Empire and Foster; that might alleviate some of the traffic woes too.
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In my experience, it's worth the extra time....The Target at Atlantic is hell. The Target at the Junction is a lovely suburban oasis.I agree. I would love SBS heading N/S on Nostrand, heading N/S on Ocean Avenue from Empire all the way down, heading N/S on Ocean Parkway ... and then E/W on King's Highway and Avenue U -- that way all of those N/S bound at two points throughout south Brooklyn.OR TROLLEYS!!
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I have a dream where Flatbush will be mostly car-free
Hear, hear.I have a dream where most of this city will be car-free. Cars and guns are, by far, the two greatest menaces to this city (and all US cities). Only you are much more likely to be killed or severely injured by a stranger wielding a car than one wielding a gun. -
When I was a kid, I remember the city digging up the last of the trolley tracks in my neighborhood on Franklin Avenue near this site. Why and how would the city bring trolleys back?OR TROLLEYS!!
Yes. Hopefully de Blasio will be able to follow through on his intentions to reduce the number of pedestrians killed by motor vehicles.Cars and guns are, by far, the two greatest menaces to this city (and all US cities). Only you are much more likely to be killed or severely injured by a stranger wielding a car than one wielding a gun.
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I doubt he is moving toward a car free city, but he is making progress on lowering the speed limits on major roads.
Flatbush is now a slow zone:
http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/37/32/dtg-flatbush-ave-slow-zone-2014-08-08-bk_37_32.html
I do hope that sustained enforcement of these rules happen by the NYPD and that these efforts actually reduce accidents.
It would be sad if the city had to move slower, with few outcomes besides paying lots of money in fines.
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I doubt he is moving toward a car free city, but he is making progress on lowering the speed limits on major roads.
The key term here is "sustained enforcement".
Flatbush is now a slow zone:
http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/37/32/dtg-flatbush-ave-slow-zone-2014-08-08-bk_37_32.html
I do hope that sustained enforcement of these rules happen by the NYPD and that these efforts actually reduce accidents.
It would be sad if the city had to move slower, with few outcomes besides paying lots of money in fines. -
Now that we live in a safer (ie less violent) city, the NYPD is going to have to figure out how to measure and reward officers who make regular traffic stops and issue moving violations.
...in the past, officers were largely rewarded for arrests: quality of life, violence, drug use, etc.
Traffic violations will need to become thought of as a "quality of life crime".
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I drove Flatbush Ave. this morning from the Belt down to Foster Ave and I don't think I got anywhere near 25 mph with all the cars, pedestrians who fail to cross where they should or with the light and buses. Lowering the speed limit wasn't even necessary. In addition, driving down Rogers Ave I encountered one idiot crossing against the light who nearly walked into the side of my car and another who was skateboarding south in the middle of the street. So, if there is going to be a safer city we need to take action against ALL those who break traffic laws, not just motor vehicles.
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Lowering the speed limit wasn't even necessary.
It may not have been when you drove it, but at many other times traffic down Flatbush goes well over 25 mph. I've ridden it many times where I am going about 20 mph with cars ripping past at what is easily 40 mph.Someone here recently said this same thing about it being hard to get over 25mph on E. Parkway. I had to laugh at being reminded of that watching several cars fly past at 45-50 mph a couple days ago. Obviously the bikers regularly hit that in stretches down E. Parkway. And last week I saw some kids racing, weaving in and out of cars at 55-60.So, if there is going to be a safer city we need to take action against ALL those who break traffic laws, not just motor vehicles.Sure, but let's make the punitive actions proportionate to the threat directed at other people. Running a red light in a car, passing too closely to cyclists (an offense punished almost never), breaking the speed limit, etc., are all violations that increase the odds of killing people other than the offender. Most things cyclists and pedestrians are ticketed for don't even come close to that. -
Or, as Mike Dunlap would seem to prefer, ban all motorized vehicles from NYC.
I'll go him one better... Ban all wheeled vehicles, including bikes, skateboards, strollers, etc.
We'll make a special exception for walkers and non-motorized wheelchairs. -
I propose we look at the violations by bikers and pedestrians as "quality of life" crimes; then there is no need to worry about the potential harm caused.
The NYPD can merely be rewarding for ticketing them for breaking the law, and the irritation the violaters cause others.
By reducing such irritations and forcing people to be polite, the number of deaths and injuries will hopefully be reduced as well. -
Or, as Mike Dunlap would seem to prefer, ban all motorized vehicles from NYC.
I wouldn't do that. I would just make requirements for operating them similar to what we require for operation of other large pieces of highly dangerous, often deadly machinery.For what it's worth, manually operated cars will eventually be banned in urban areas anyway. People a few generations from now (if not sooner) will look back in amazement at the era of virtually unregulated manual operation of such deadly machines. Like we look back at guillotines, duels, and so on. -
I drove Flatbush Ave. this morning from the Belt down to Foster Ave and I don't think I got anywhere near 25 mph with all the cars, pedestrians who fail to cross where they should or with the light and buses. Lowering the speed limit wasn't even necessary.
Then you have incidents like this.
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I propose we look at the violations by bikers and pedestrians as "quality of life" crimes
Call them whatever you want. But let me know when cyclists and pedestrians start killing and maiming the same number of people in this city that car drivers do. I'll be completely with you on treating violations by each of these groups the same. -
Then you have incidents like this.
Nicely done.The arguments of anyone who says drivers rarely get above 25 mph on Flatbush or E. Parkway really shouldn't be taken seriously as they concern this debate. -
Exactly @mike dunlap. When it's a vehicle vs. a pedestrian, there's no contest.@pragmaticguy is apparently a law-abiding driver, and that's very good. However, what he witnessed this morning doesn't discount what many of us have witnessed throughout the borough. I know I have seen vehicles (and not just dollar vans!) speeding on Flatbush between Grand Army Plaza and Lefferts Avenue for example. I also have seen vehicles speeding to make light at Flatbush and Empire Blvd/Ocean Avenue.
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Mike,
You are unlikely to get the police to reduce ticketing to pedestrians and bikers to because they pose little damage to others.
However, when one thinks about it, the NYPD is increasingly ticketing peds and bikers on the basis they pose to themselves.
...it seems more humane than just letting them die for their disregard of the law.
While we strive for utopia, we have to live in the world we have.
Even if the police wish they could ignore the risk that law breaking peds and bikers pose to themselves, they can't do so because of the irritation they pose to others. -
@mugofmead -
The penalties for breaking the law are different as well.
For example, while a ped or a biker gets a ticket for their violation, the penalty ends there.
Meanwhile, a driver gets a fine, points off their lic, and (if they keep doing it...) eventually lose their lic and/or have to pay higher insurance rates.
However, under prior administrations enforcement of these laws was lax.
DeBlasio is bringing in a new day.
If increased enforcement isn't enough to change the behavior of drivers/peds/bikers, we should look at increasing the applicable penalties.
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There's always going to be accidents and times when people speed but in the photo shown above does anyone here really think that lowering the speed limit to 25 would have mattered. I guess there's many on here who don't own cars and would never be seen in one but I've been driving for longer than most of the people who post on here are alive and have seen very few accidents of the type above. Are there going to be some? Sure. Are there going to be plane crashes? Sure. But the odds of it happening where people are killed are slight. Years ago when I lived in N.J. the cops would stake out about a block from the bars on the weekend and then would pull over just about everyone driving out to check for DWI. The bar owners lost tons of business and eventually it was stopped because there was no probable cause to pull people over. Drunk driving, as we all know, kills and maims more than any other cause, so let's ban people from somehow driving to and from bars. Even the LIRR got rid of the bar cars because commuters would get loaded and then drive home.
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@pragmaticguy - It's interesting you mentioned the likelihood of plane crashes happening, as one is more likely to be killed in a car crash than in a plane crash.@why_not31 and I already alluded that "sustained enforcement" would be key component in creating and maintaining the slow zones. Just lowering the speed limit isn't going to do squat if those who commit speeding infractions don't get busted.
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@pragmaticguy -
I suspect that the LIRR banned bar cars not because passengers were driving home from their destination station drunk, but because LIRR needed the space the bar car was using for more passenger rail cars.
One can still buy beer at Penn Station or Atlantic Terminal, and legally drink it on the train.
....those poor people on living on LI need something to make their lives bearable, the LIRR has not taken their beer.
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I'm pretty sure the bar cars were removed because of the appearance of people getting drunk. You might buy one beer at Penn but I knew quite a few guys that would down 4 or 5 drinks in the hour it took to get home.
@mug---of course there's more chance dying in a car than a plane. That's not the point, the point is that no matter how safe one tries to make things, accidents will occur. I don't think that people purposely try to ram other cars. I do think reckless driving is terrible. But I don't think lowering the speed limit 5 mph is going to change much. I get nervous when I see people driving like idiots but that's what the law is for. Most major accidents occur way over 30 so lowering the speed to 25 is not a big deal.
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Cutting the impact speed in a crash from 30mph to 25mph cuts the risk of pedestrian death nearly in half:Cutting the speed limit only matters with enforcement, but that's what we need speed cameras for. We're starting to get them, but now we need Albany to let us turn them on at night.
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Yesterday I was driving home. Was stopped at the light on Park Pl and Saratoga. Light turns green but some jerkweed delivery guy on his electric bike coming up Saratoga decided to keep going. If I wouldn't have beeped him he would have thought running the light was fine. If I would have hit him it would have been my fault even though it was his. Yes, people get killed but it's not always the car's fault. And what I've noticed is people are going slower on EP but they're driving like nuts on St. Johns. And that street won't have cameras, and they'll get away with it.
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Let's just put in SBS, bike lanes, and a a local bus lane and remove all cars ... Wishful thinking
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