Atlantic and Flatbush: Biker (update: Pedestrian) dead in collision with truck, 10/20/2014
Comments
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Gothamist is saying it was an elderly lady, skirting the double-yellows. Seeing how it's not an uncommon thing to be tightroping the double yellow (in all of NYC) maybe more Traffic police should be put on duty. And, this is where I would say the NYPD would rightfully write out tickets to those who do (provided they're mentally competent) . I'm wondering if the poor lady was lost or if she had Alzheimer's, or the like.
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While it is worst to be the deceased, the driver of the dump truck likely had really bad day too.
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Christ, what the hell made her walk midblock across Flatbush? Was she just elderly and confused?
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Maybe the crossing time was too short, or she overestimated how fast she could cross (apparently common among older pedestrians, who estimate crossing time based on how fast they once were), and got caught in the middle when the light changed.
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Whoever is to blame in this incident (not that it would matter even if it wasn't the victim's fault), it is a horrendously designed intersection where two of the deadliest avenues in the city meet. Lengthy, indirect crosswalks are especially dangerous for the elderly, children, and disabled. Another elderly person was killed here last year. More will be killed here in the future. All of this very much preventable.
If she had been run over by a cyclist it would have been front page news. -
It looks like she'll be the 209th in 2014.
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It looks like she'll be the 209th in 2014.
Damn cyclists.
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No one is blaming cyclists. That would be silly. She was hit by a truck....most of the accidents had nothing to do with bikes.
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Maybe it's time to get a couple of pedestrian bridges that criss-cross Flatbush/Atlantic/4th Ave.
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Maybe it's time to get a couple of pedestrian bridges that criss-cross Flatbush/Atlantic/4th Ave.
There's a lot more that can be done before having to go that far though. Remove a side lane on Flatbush and Atlantic and convert it to a 2-way cycle track. From the remaining 5, make the middle a 2-way turn lane. These have proven to significantly reduce injuries and deaths by, among other things, slowing traffic and reducing the crossing distance (especially important for elderly, children, and handicapped).From 40 mph to 25 mph fatalities almost entirely disappear. The goal should be to get Atlantic and Flatbush to a flow no faster at any point than 25 mph. -
Some deaths are going to happen no matter how many modifications are made to the street design, and the speed limit.
This may be a place where sidewalk fences make sense. ...like those near Rockefeller Center. -
@Mike Dunlap - the area that straddles Atlantic/Flatbush & 4th Avenue is immense. Even if they chopped the whole area by half, it's still a long walking distance. And, unfortunately, the traffic needs to move, so you can't have long reds. You'll see back-ups between GAP and the Manny B. in both directions. Worse than what they are now. I have seen the bridges/overpasses work in Vegas. If I remember correctly the overpass connects the casinos and streets across, and up & down Las Vegas Blvd. I'm sure that in between city funding, the businesses in the Mall and Barclay's stadium something can be done where access is easy, affordable and is high enough for the trucks and buses to pass under easily. I do agree with you on adding the bile lanes, but it's still a ton of mishigos that pedestrians would have to deal with. Just my opinion
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A big-picture solution is tolling the East River bridges and cutting the Verazzano toll so heavy truck traffic stays on the expressways to New Jersey rather than cutting through our Brooklyn neighborhoods and Canal St. on Manhattan to save a couple bucks.
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For better or worse, the abilty to toll the East River bridges resides with Albany.
Albany will only allow the bridges to be tolled in exchange for a price that is so high that no prior mayor has been able to meet it.
I would have to see the current price and projected benefits before I concluded we should go ahead. -
@whynot_31 - What is Albany's reasoning for feeling that they are entitled to a high price?
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Even if they chopped the whole area by half, it's still a long walking distance. And, unfortunately, the traffic needs to move, so you can't have long reds. You'll see back-ups between GAP and the Manny B. in both directions. Worse than what they are now.
1) Not perfect, just better. Taking 6 lanes down to 4 + turn lane is something being done in many cities currently because it has proven to reduce injuries and fatalities.2) Traffic tends to go elsewhere when road capacity is reduced. People become more efficient with discretionary trips (the reduction of induced demand created by road capacity increases), take different routes, move more flexible trips to different times, etc. I doubt there would be anything more than under a minute added to average commute times through the area, if any time at all.There are examples of similar reductions from around the world, but the best example of a comparable reduction is the removal of Broadway through Times Square. Before its removal, there was a lengthy walk required to cross at 44th where Broadway and 7th connected. Many people had to stop and crowd into the ends of the island medians there while cars rushed by down both avenues. With Broadway removed, the cross is now much shorter.It was predicted by a very large number of people that traffic in that area of Midtown would be made significantly worse. Not only did that not happen, the exact opposite happened: commute times in the area significantly improved. Additionally, pedestrian and motorist injuries in the area dropped dramatically despite large increases in pedestrians given a new plaza. -
@whynot_31 - What is Albany's reasoning for feeling that they are entitled to a high price?
In general, when an entity owns something, it wants to get the highest price.
The latest tactic involves exchanging some tolls for others, but Albany isn't/wasn't interested:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/east-river-tolls-midtown-traffic-charges-proposed-article-1.1728986
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So I take it Albany owns the bridges... But now, they are getting nothing in return. Getting something is more than getting nothing...
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They believe they are getting a lot from the present arrangement, and know how much the city wants them.
One should remember this is occurring under Cuomo. If he is re-elected and the mix of the legislature doesn't change, I expect "the price" to remain constant.
If he is ousted, I expect the price demanded to soar because his replacement will be an anti tax/toll Republican.
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What do they believe they are getting from the present management? Sorry for my ignorance.
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Given how much Cuomo seems to hate Deblasio, I suspect his motivation is partly driven by "mere" obstruction/embarassment.
Albany and NYC want a lot things from each other; the East River Bridges can't be looked at in isolation.
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So the value is a bargaining chip; simply politics. It all makes sense now.
Thanks. -
I have also heard that they fear that giving the city the ability to toll the ER bridges will denigrate the State's hold over the other bridges.
The whole NYS Port Authority issue.... -
That's not really the issue as much as it is that currently tolling in NYC is controlled by the MTA (having taken over the Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority). NYC bridge tolls go back to the MTA and help support bridge O&M and mass transit subsidies. The City wants to toll east river bridges and have that money go to NYC general fund. Its about who gets the money that's generated and what its used for. The State would be more supportive of those bridges being tolled and controlled by the MTA as it would be an additional revenue source. The City wants to keep whatever dollars are generated for city purposes.
The Port Authority is a completely separate issue. The PA was created by an act of Congress through a federal compact to prevent either state from holding a monopoly on access to the Port of NY. It was done to force the parties to work together without local politics clouding the decision-making process. Until about twenty years ago that worked well. Now? Not so much.
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I should have written "the whole crazy NYS Authority issue".
In my next life, I am going to figure out how to sell bonds (ie incur debt) under the name of an entity I create, that is part of me only when it is beneficial but is distinct when it isn't... -
Last weekend I had to run a couple errands around Atlantic @ Flatbush. First going to Modell's, then having to cross Flatbush and Atlantic to get to Target.I sat there, watching buses and cars blocking the intersection, people honking, yelling, more buses and cars flying around the blocked cars and buses in order to get through the intersection, ripping just past pedestrians with the right of way.I don't know what's harder to fathom: that this death maze exists in an affluent, developed country... or that a large number of car drivers would scream if smart changes were made to keep drivers from killing people in it. Just amazing.Anyway, a few days later, more killing of people by car drivers:Guns and cars... guns and cars...
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I agree that the entire area is a nightmare for pedestrians, and I don't think Barclays helps.I go to that Target frequently as well. Crossing from the NW corner of Atlantic and Flatbush to the other side where the B41 bus stop is is dangerous. Cars turning from Atlantic to Flatbush are coming from a weird angle, and they may have a little blind spot. That said, I have observed and encountered drivers who do not want to yield to pedestrians who have the right of way.Drivers who sit in the bus stop be it at Barclays or in front of Atlantic Center make life difficult for bus drivers to navigate and to discharge passengers properly. Once on my way to target, I saw a (female) traffic cop ask a taxi driver to move out of the bus stop so the bus can pull in. The cabbie didn't want to. The traffic cop gave the taxi driver the business. (You're not only breaking the law, but you have the nerve to disregard what the cop says? She wasn't a meter maid!) I appreciated her trying to enforce the law, but I don't see traffic enforcement too often. (Don't get me started on people who make illegal turns...)Long story short, @mike dunlap, I don't believe that the buses are at that much fault (as opposed to other drivers).Let's see whether Vision Zero changes anything. (I did leave feedback during the public input period.)
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Holders of unlimited metro cards can use the underground passages to get around the Flatbush-Atlantic intersection without having to wait for lights, or risk being hit by vehicles.
The intersection isn't as bad as the Queensboro one in LIC. That one is so crazy I refuse to cross it on the street, and only use the tunnels. -
Years ago I was in Amsterdam....the bicyclists didn't give a crap about the pedestrians and they were much more numerous than cars. It seems those with the most wheels win.
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All of the Flatbush Avenue intersections south of 6th Avenue to Fulton Street have been screwed seven ways to Sunday by actions taken by DOT. Let's look at what they have done:1) Gotten rid of all left turns off Flatbush. The one exception is going southbound at Lafayette Avenue where there is a dedicated turning lane with a turn signal. The result is that drivers unfamiliar with the area (which there are many with the new arena) are screwed. There are no northbound left turns at all, and no signs indicating no left turns anywhere.2) Closed several key streets crossing Flatbush. This includes Hanson Place, Lafayette, and Fulton Street all of which were originally designed to allow traffic to funnel quickly and easily from one side of Flatbush to the other without overburdening any individual crossing. Now there is no way to get from Ft Greene onto 3rd Avenue, from 4th Avenue into Ft. Greene or from Fulton deeper into Downtown Brooklyn without traveling on Flatbush or Atlantic Avenues. What the hell is the point of a street grid, if you are arbitrarily going to close streets permanently and funnel all traffic onto two streets.3) Refused to acknowledge in any serious manner that Atlantic Avenue is a dedicated truck route. This is a key one. Trucks must use Atlantic when traveling east west through the borough, yet, there is not one sign that reflects this. Pedestrians, bikers and other motorists should be made aware that this street is always, always, always going to have trucks with limited sight lines, unusual turning radii and long stopping distances traveling on it. Perhaps if people were aware of this they would rethink things like darting across Atlantic after concerts in front of huge trucks.4) Refused to have traffic agents at key intersections 7 days a week. The Flatbush/Atlantic intersection is so bad, I think there might be a reference to it in Dante's "Inferno". And yet, drive through there any Saturday or Sunday and you'l see nary a traffic enforcement agent in sight. When summers bring street closures and block parties which also divert traffic it makes this intersection a delightful slice of life that you'll spend 45 minutes navigating your way through.Mike, car drivers are fed up because this street is this way due to the insistence of DOT making changes to "improve" the area. Look at this document from 2003 which details many of these changes, then ask yourself if the results are what DOT projected. These changes weren't asked for by drivers but were proposed by people who wanted to take what had been to that point two manufacturing/industrial/warehousing corridors and make them pedestrian friendly to exploit the existing traffic hub and the planned commercial/residential (Atlantic Yards) developments.
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