"indigenous" person objects to attitude of white newcomers

...

Yes. I meant Native-Americans when I referred to what the white colonizers did in the 17th thru 19th centuries.

I also used "indigenous people" to refer to the people of color who lived in Eastern Crown Heights from the end of the 1940s thru the present. The same people who were left in this community, Crown Heights, Bedford-Stuyvesant, Brownsville, East New York, et al (basically Central Brooklyn). They were left there primarily because they had been red-lined, and that was the only place they could reside.

The NYC government and the banks and insurance companies made sure by legislation and regulations that the red-lining remained in place. One example, was the institution of the two-fare zone. Back when NYCT fare was $0.15 (fifteen cents), but a typical week's salary was $30.00, the cost of getting back and forth between work and home doubling was a powerful deterrent to minorities moving into other communities.

The inability of minorities to get loans, whether thru the GI Bill to open businesses or a mortgage, was constrained to these communities. A good example of the indigenous peoples ingenuity was the use of the "sou-sou". The "sou-sou" was a round-robin sharing of funds within a pool of people. If you had 30 people whose hand was $10 per session, when your turn came you had the grand sum of $300, and the means to make a large purchase (consider that a week's salary was still $30).

The other great institution that was created in Central Brooklyn was "Paragon Progressive Credit Union". Approximately 13 men of color got together and were chartered as the first African-American credit union in the United States, here in central Brooklyn. This tool allowed many families, and especially women (of color) to purchase their own homes or open their own businesses. When Paragon became wildly successful, Dime Savings Bank (DSB) jumped in and complained to the officers of Paragon that they were "hogging" all the business; the same business that DSB previously had no problem telling to take a "long walk off a short pier".

These new "indigenous people", who had been sequestered to their own "reservations" through red-lining, continued to live in the racist US. As is normal for all communities, some prospered through hard work and good fortune. And as time passed, their children, who had been taught the lessons of frugality and education came to live in the same community. But now, being educated, these second generation children could see that the system, wasn't fair.

It was fixed. The fact that they played by the rules didn't stop the "powers that be" from still mis-allocating and misappropriating funds within the minority community.

I am from the 2nd generaton; but my children, who live in Crown Heights are the new, adult third generation.

And we have our own culture.
And we have our own values.
And we have all the same desires for advancement as any other human being.
And, after all attempts at being mis-educated about our value as human beings, we speak out.
My words, whether you like them or not, whether you try to ridicule them or if you act as a troll, doesn't stop the truth of the things that I am saying.

And, trying to look at the history of this community, city, state, and country, and being aware of all the forces that work to create by everyday reality here in Brooklyn, NY, I will continue to speak out, and work for the advancement of humanity, but principally for people of color, because I love myself, my children, my family and parents, and I have seen too many times in my short life, all of the attempts to diminish people who look like me.

As for the church, where is my tambourine?

p.s. See Spike Lee's take on gentrification and the "Columbus Syndrome"
http://www.brooklynbuzz.com/spike-lees-motherfcking-hipsters-gentrifying-brooklyn/

Why thank you, southeast.

If by a rant, you mean discussing racism as it has existed and shaped this community, well yes, thank you for letting me know that you see it as a rant.

When those in media keep claiming that this country needs to have "a conversation about race" what they mean is someone should have that conversation, but not them, and not now.

For people who are, or have been, or realize that they are always on the razor's edge to being disenfranchised again, this is not a rant; these are some of the facts of life.

I don't know who you are, but "white privilege" is just that force that keeps race and class as a constant dividing line, and certain persons described as "LOUD".

They will always be seen as too loud as long as they aren't from your tribe, unless you embrace them as part of (all) humanity.
It taints the general viewpoint that is and was presented as the truth.

Really this rant and attack on posters warranted it's own thread? I thought we frowned on such comments here on Brooklynian. 

This may be perceived as a rant of my own, but so be it....Hopefully it will clarify things, especially for @bklyn50....

The posting made about the church's 9-consecutive-day-long outdoor unbelievably-amplified services had absolutely NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with finding anyone's customs "annoying and primitive", NOR WAS IT IN ANY WAY ABOUT RACE OR SOCIETAL STANDING 

The statements made solely pointed out the truth of the UNBELIEVABLY LOUD, amplified, nonstop preaching and music ECHOING AND SHAKING for hours on end resulting from the churches choice to microphone and amplify singers, piano/organ, drums, and other instruments, and BLAST that service for 9-days-straight via EXTREMELY LOUD speakers that reverberated the sound through their neighbors' homes as well as off of the brick walls of all of the surrounding buildings, causing the sound to bounce back at all of us who were simply trying to go about our lives and get some rest during what would typically be considered quiet hours and periods of rest (like weekends, two of which were overtaken by these events.)

There was simply no reason for the church to have mic'd & amplified at the extremely loud levels they did, for hours on end, every evening and weekend for 9 days straight, outdoors (in a fairly small space of approx 15'x25' maybe), and essentially impose their services on everyone around them via loudspeaker. Both worship and gospel are beautiful!!!!  And their congregation most certainly has every right to enjoy and worship and celebrate.  Absolutely!!! But the way it was done was not particularly considerate to those around them.  It simply did not need to be THAT INCREDIBLY LOUD and go on late into the night.  And again, the outdoor space they occupied was small..they could have easily heard each other minus all the amplifiers and speakers at their chosen booming volume level.  Consideration of those around them would have been appreciated. That's all that was being voiced in the initial posting on this site.

Literally, for 9 days, in our own homes, people could not hear people talking to them from 4 feet away, because the church's speakers were THAT LOUD.  And it went on for hours into the night, again, for 9 straight days. We couldnt hear ourselves think, we couldnt stop the walls from shaking, we couldnt enjoy our outdoor spaces, we couldnt talk on the phone (forget evening business calls - impossible!), we couldnt keep our windows open, we couldnt relax in our own homes for 9 days after a long day of work, nor on weekends - It was inescapable. So the fact that it was mentioned on this board along with other neighborhood goings-on and observations, HAD NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH ANYONE'S COLOR, nor religion, nor whether they are NEW versus "INDIGINOUS" residents. IT HAD ONLY TO DO WITH THE HOPE FOR COURTESY AND CONSIDERATION FOR EVERYONE.

We would have all felt the same, and voiced the EXACT same frustration, whether this was Irish-Catholics, Hasidic Jews, Muslims, or worshippers of ANY religion or any belief system that were choosing to worship in such an INCREDIBLY LOUD manner that made their neighbors homes shake for days on end, and made it impossible for their neighbors to even hear each other during dinner.

And just to be clear, those of us neighbors who were impacted and frustrated by the incredible volume and late-hours, and voiced those feelings, are a very mixed bunch of lovely and neighborly folks of every conceivable color range, ethnicity, religion, and background, and we love living in such a wonderfully mixed community and building!!! Believe me, neither the factors of anyone's color, nor whether folks are "new" versus "indigenious" were even remotely at issue here. Hopefully that helps to clarify things a bit and create some understandng for the basis of the initial posting. If not, that's quite unfortunate. Regardless, let's try to be kind to one another, shall we??!!

The assumption that all people of color want loud noisy parties seems itself a distasteful assumption. 

racism of three decades ago

All cities are transitional places where groups migrate from here to there and even disperse.

Hi folks!

Just a few statements and observations.

1. After the responses to my post(s) I took the time to reach out to CityCouncilmember Cumbo's office. I linked them to this thread; I haven't heard any response from them.

2. I also reached out to the 77th Pct. I didn't get any responses from my written outreach, so I arranged a sitdown meeting with them. They (Community Affairs) were aware of the unhappiness of the nearby residents, but noted that the church did stop their worship services well within the NYC restrictions.

I will re-connect with the CM's office and see what outreach, if any, was done by them.
I haven't vigorously tried to reach the Pastor of the church; I suggest that local residents reach out to the church and its leadership before the next annual revival takes place to see if any better compromises can be reached about the sound levels.

@prodigalson:
Having attended many weddings, I have noted that intermarriage among Hispanics, Italians, and Portuguese is fairly common. The one thing that I noticed that made it easier for them to assimilate, was a shared culture.

Funny word, assimilate or assimilation. It is at the crux of most of the agita seen here and throughout this culture, if not the world. Everyone wants to maintain their comfort level, and compromise is a very rare coin.

@morralkan:
I am happy that you think that I am a ranter.
I have lived in Crown Heights since 1950.
The area you speak of vaguely as NE CH was mixed though I don't agree with your percentages.
Not living within the NE segment among the Orthodox Jews, I am not familiar with any busing that took place. My community that I am speaking of is pretty much the guidelines of Community Board 8; bounded by Ralph/Flatbush/Atlantic Avenues and EP.

@naturegirlbk:
I hope that with all your fervor, you continue to reach out to the congregation of Solid Rock Pentacostal Church and find a way to come to an agreement on the sound levels of their revival(s).
Praisers are going to praise, and whether you are a person of faith or not, people involved that deeply in their religion view your attempts to tone them down as someone trying to interfere with their praise. or something like that.

As far as the point being taken that "I was here first and I am going to do it my way" the real gist of that is this - people of color didn't have anywhere to go and were left to what most folks considered the dregs back in the 50s and 60s.

Now that Mayor Bloomberg has made living in Manhattan virtually impossible for anyone short of a hedge fund manager or a PhD, the next natural place is Central Brooklyn,

I have lived here long enough to remember being told by high school classmates that I lived in "The Ghetto". When I did my self examination fifty years, I was struck then that the housing stock was remarkably good, and that the people though poor, had a general good moral standing.
Now after being priced out of Manhattan, the gentrifiers are coming to the previously unacceptable Brooklyn, where rents are still reasonable (for them).

If that is a rant, then so be it.
If you dispute my facts, we can always fact check.

(but remember, just as for you as for me, history is always HIS STORY); just a matter of who gets to broadcast the loudest with the most longevity.

People have a right to peace in their own homes, without the rattling sounds of unnecessarily loud bass. Explosive music or noise in an either persistent fashion, or at night when people are trying to rest as they need to wake up the next day, is something no one should have to put up with.

It's basic human decency to 'keep the noise down'. To bring in irrelevant commentary about Columbus or colonialism is just an excuse to keep what you believe to be some sort of privilege that you think you deserve.

These neighborhoods belong to no one and they never will. The land that people are buying houses or apartments on are separated into lots for a reason - so individual families can buy them. And to buy, you need another to sell (it's a two-way street). Blocks in Brooklyn or Queens are not bought and sold together in one lump, and they sure aren't reserved for any color or race.

But it's not a race issue. Black professionals complain about the same thing and dislike being lumped into the category of people who are inconsiderate. They have stressful jobs and commutes, and need their shut eye. Some people have to wake up early to go to work, and some people don't. That's what it boils down to.

"Now after being priced out of Manhattan, the gentrifiers are coming to the previously unacceptable Brooklyn, where rents are still reasonable (for them)."

@mcpoet:
Your points are all excellent.

Unfortunately, race and class are still tied together in NYC.
And the individuals who, actively or passively, take advantage of this will be viewed as active participants in the process.

@whynot_31:
Slavery can be seen as pursuing one's "self interests" at the expense of resources, whether you view them as human or not.

A recent article in DNAInfo about CM Cornegy offering "participant governing" by offering $1M to be used by community residents devolved into a racist comments about what should be done to 5 muggers who caused the assaultee's death.

https://neighborhoodsquare.com/n/item/4dDr?utm_campaign=Bed-Stuy&utm_medium=integration_partner&utm_source=dnainfo&[email protected]&prompt=top

IMO these persons deserve the justice that can be given them.
OTOH, the vision of some persons, who see all black men as these five person, is corrosive to the community.

@mcpoet:
Your points are all excellent.

Unfortunately, race and class are still tied together in NYC.
And the individuals who, actively or passively, take advantage of this will be viewed as active participants in the process.

I don't disagree on that point either. I think it's just a question of blame and who gets blamed for gentrification.  Attributing it to individuals seems to be self-defeating IMO (at least in the case of individual tenants, management companies and real estate barons on the other hand....).  Though, like I said, I can definitely understand the impulse to do so.  It's like the social version of the defense mechanism known as displacement.  Your boss treats you like crap, so you go home and yell at your wife and kids.  In this case, you don't see the people responsible for driving these problems, because they won't come anywhere near these neighborhoods, so you displace that anger onto the person who seems conspicuously new to the neighborhood.  Completely understandable, but ultimately self defeating.  

Ditto @brickstoner