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church/state and Xmas displays in Brooklyn — Brooklynian

church/state and Xmas displays in Brooklyn

massimo
massimo
edited November -1 in Brooklyn Politics
So, I celebrate the season because I like holidays, presents, good food, and friends & family (not necessarily in that order).

But it does bother me when I see public displays of a clearly religious nature in a country that, in theory at least, has a clear separation between church and state.

I'm not talking about the christmas tree at Cadman Plaza, I'm talking about the giant Menorah there (apparently there is another one at Grand Army), not to mention the nativity scene nearby.

Why can't people understand that imposing one's own religion on others is irritating (and therefore contrary to the holiday spirit) at a minimum, and at worst leads to the sort of mayhem and suffering that goes on in Palestine, Iraq, etc.??

Comments

  • escap
    escap
    Would you be opposed to public funding and displays that celebrated non-religious cultural traditions? What about the various ethnic parades? Isn't religion just part of culture? Note, I am not religious or Jewish, and I adamantly support a separation of church and state, but I'm not sure if I share your anger over this one.
  • sweet tea
    sweet tea
    how do any of those things "impose" a religion on you?
  • carnivore
    carnivore

    Subject: Re: church/state and Xmas displays in Brooklyn

    Massimo wrote: I'm not talking about the christmas tree at Cadman Plaza, I'm talking about the giant Menorah there (apparently there is another one at Grand Army), not to mention the nativity scene nearby.
    Why aren't you talking about the christmas tree? That kind of seems like a double standard.
  • whyfi
    whyfi

    Subject: Re: church/state and Xmas displays in Brooklyn

    Carnivore wrote: [quote=Massimo]I'm not talking about the christmas tree at Cadman Plaza, I'm talking about the giant Menorah there (apparently there is another one at Grand Army), not to mention the nativity scene nearby.
    Why aren't you talking about the christmas tree? That kind of seems like a double standard.
    This was my first thought, too, but now that I've had more time to dwell... well, I still see this point, but at the same time...
    I have no idea of the history/tradition/significance of the Menorahs (feel free to color me ignorant), but I think that Christmas trees are pretty far separated from Christianity. Shit, Jesus becomes more and more of a bit player each year, while Santa takes more of the spotlight (can I use 'shit' and 'Jesus' in the same sentence, like that?). It's not hard to argue two distinct, and increasingly divergent, Christmases, including one which has nothing to do with the birth of dear Lord Baby Jesus (sorry, just watched Talladega Nights the other day).
  • carnivore
    carnivore
    So a lack of separation between paganism and state is ok? Isn't paganism a religion too?
  • whyfi
    whyfi
    Don't mistake me as being pro- any religion...

    You'd be getting in to a pretty broad definition of religion - I don't think that there's anything spiritual/reverential about Christmas trees, Santa, Rudolph, or Frosty, although I can see someone like Kmom arguing that it's (Christmas/Chanukah/"The Holidays") become worship to the gods of commerce and materialism... and I don't think that I'd argue with them too much.

    In a similar vein, did anyone else hear the segment on NPR the other day? About the guy that's calling for a rally/organization of atheists? He feels that the invoking of god is getting to be ridiculous from White House to PTA and beyond, and that the only way to counter is to be similarly organized to call 'bullshit' whenever god weighs in.
  • massimo
    massimo
    For a bit of history of Christmas (including the traditions of trees, gifts, etc.) see:

    http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.com/2006/12/here-we-go-again-its-grumpy-atheist.html

    As for sweet tea's question: "how do any of those things "impose" a religion on you?" these things impose religion because they favor one (or two) particular religions over others -- which is not what the government is supposed to do, according to the constitution.

    This isn't a problem just for atheists, by the way. The phrase "wall of separation between church and state" was coined by Thomas Jefferson in response to a letter from the Baptist convention. The Baptist were worried that the Federal or a State government might impose another denomination as the official church, adn Jefferson reassured them on the matter.

    Finally (sorry, I already went on too long), another way to see the problem is this: suppose we granted access to the public square to all religions, not just some version of Christianity or Judaism. Would you have a problem with displays inciting to a jihad, or with a satanist displaying an upside down cross, or even with an atheist displayign a sign that says "I don't exist -- God"?

    You see the point: religion is a private thing, we have plenty of churches, mosques and sinagogues. Use them.
  • iowagirl
    iowagirl
    This isn't by way of justification, merely clarification. While I haven't seen the nativity scene near Cadman Plaza, the menorahs there and at Grand Army Plaza are privately funded by local synagogues. Their placement in public areas may be controversial, but they are not owned or maintained by the city. I don't know whether the synagogues reimburse the city for the electricity they use.
  • massimo
    massimo
    iowagirl, you are probably right about the displays being privately funded, which does add a complication to the issue. However, the fact remains that the displays are on private property, and therefore represent an implicit endorsement of religion by a public authority.

    More importantly, what strikes me as strange is that these people simply don't seem to be concerned with the issue at all, not making any apparent distinction between their right to privately worship what they want and the public good that is better served if no religion is imposed on others. Oh well, I got my Winter Soltice tree at home... :)
  • escap
    escap
    Massimo, going back to your example, I wouldn't have any problem with that at all. Isn't that what free speech is all about? What's wrong with a public forum for private individuals to peacefully express their beliefs and disagree? You use extreme examples that might bring in the complication of a potential violence, but the issue of security is tangential. I have absolutely no problem with the use of public property as a forum for private individuals to speak their mind; in fact, I'd say it's a crucial element of a democratic society. The fact that this is privately funded makes it a total non-issue as far as I'm concerned. It's not the state saying, "We support this"; it's the state saying, "Here's a venue--feel free to express yourself."
  • massimo
    massimo
    escap,

    my mistake. You are right, if the effort is totally privately funded, then it is a legitimate form of free expression (though I still think that the local satanist group would have a hard time apply for a permit to put up an inverted cross... :)

    What should not happen is the use of public funds for obviously religious displays. So I guess the question is whether any of the religious displays around Brooklyn are in fact partially funded by the public purse.
  • escap
    escap
    Sweet, that was easy. If you want, I'll chip in $2 and we can go down and throw up a "Yeah Secularism" sign or something. :lol:
  • iowagirl
    iowagirl
    Yeah, Bill O'Reilly's War on Christmas is evident nowhere in New York City, the Gomorrah of the East. How ironic is that?
  • emily
    emily
    WhyFi wrote:
    In a similar vein, did anyone else hear the segment on NPR the other day? About the guy that's calling for a rally/organization of atheists? He feels that the invoking of god is getting to be ridiculous from White House to PTA and beyond, and that the only way to counter is to be similarly organized to call 'bullshit' whenever god weighs in.
    Not only did I hear the report, I've read the book and written a long blog post about it... I'll PM the URL to you and anyone else curious.
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