SPLIT TOPIC: Bad service in New York restaurants
Drano wrote: ...there were major issues with the service. ...
LittleRyder wrote: We just came from BBB and... The service was awful...I don't know anyone at BBB, and though I am a devoted consumer of dead animals, the sound of this place is more than a little off-putting ... but it seems rash to condemn the service at any restaurant so new. Service in this town, as I have said numerous times, sucks universally. (If it weren't so far off-thread, I'd defy anyone to suggest a restaurant in the five boroughs that had consistently good service. It can't be done.) But if you combine typical New York service with the breaking in of the various systems, electronic and human, necessary for a restaurant to function, ack, watch out. Anytime someplace new opens, better to wait a few months and let your friends be the guinea pig. (No offense to guinea pigs intended.)
Uh, err-um, that being said, if anyone has the kobe burger, I'd be grateful to read a review of it here. :oops:
Comments
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Username: * wrote: I'd defy anyone to suggest a restaurant in the five boroughs that had consistently good service.
That's patently absurd. Some examples to the contrary from places I've been (this is just off the cuff- there are doubtless many others):
Le Bernardin
Gramercy Tavern
Daniel
Union Square Cafe
Garden Cafe (right here in Prospect Heights)
Kings Carriage House
Veritas
Wallse
Jewel Bako
Blue Hill
I'll make another post with more after I give it a little thought. -
Ditto GT, USC and Blue Hill on good service ALL the time. I haven't been to the others, so I can't say.
Also adding Bridge Cafe (under the Brooklyn Bridge on the Manhattan side).
Right now that's all I can think of (I eat in Manhattan much more than in Brooklyn), but there are certainly some places that still know what good service means. -
Carnivore wrote: Veritas
I'll second that. Good foie gras too.
Bridge Cafe is good, I give it extra credit for being a wooden building. -
Carnivore wrote: [quote=Username: *]I'd defy anyone to suggest a restaurant ... that had consistently good service.
That's patently absurd. ...
It's not absurd. ...I am not trying to pick a fight so far off-thread, but "absurd" is listing Le Bernardin to make your point. ...I'm saying that if you are a lifelong New Yorker, it may be that you don't know better.
I am not a prince-prima donna who has high standards. (Read my posts; I'm a slob.) ...I think what makes good service is being able to recommend something to eat. Knowing what food is what, and whether the vegetarian soup is really vegetarian. Being able to remember that a customer asks for something extra and who ordered what. Coming back to the table periodically. Being quick to offer the check. And knowing, for god's sake, that I cannot leave a tip without the proper change.
And these things do not consistently happen in New York.
Disclaimer: I've only been in the city a year. And, though I eat out at least two or three times per week (though almost never at places listed in the Michelin Guide), I probably haven't been to enough places to make a truly intelligent comment. That being said, I cannot name a single restaurant that I would recommend for having good service. I can think of many that are not aggravating. Still more that are not insulting. And, further, more that are sometimes amusing.
I am sure that food servers in this town are very hard-working. They are good Christian (or insert other religion here) people, with keen minds and a genuine concern for their patrons. But, of course, that does not make what they do so diligently "good service."
Proposition: Consider posting just a few examples from Park Slope, places that you think have consistently good service. I'll sample a few, and if I am wrong, I will retract my comments and post an even longer mea culpa in this space. (And offer my hearty gratitude to the responsible poster for restoring my faith in New York servers.) -
Let me add that I think New York restaurants are fantastic and I really cannot remember having a bad dinner here (except for that time at this place in the seaport, but that was just a rookie mistake). :-'
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Oh, I've had plenty o'crap meals here...but many more fabulous ones, too (and many of them very cheap).
Next time you have to eat near the Seaport, go to Bridge Cafe...or MarkJoseph (for a good steak). -
Username: * wrote: [quote=Carnivore][quote=Username: *]I'd defy anyone to suggest a restaurant ... that had consistently good service.
That's patently absurd. ...
It's not absurd. ...I am not trying to pick a fight so far off-thread, but "absurd" is listing Le Bernardin to make your point. ...I'm saying that if you are a lifelong New Yorker, it may be that you don't know better.
I am not a prince-prima donna who has high standards. (Read my posts; I'm a slob.) ...I think what makes good service is being able to recommend something to eat. Knowing what food is what, and whether the vegetarian soup is really vegetarian. Being able to remember that a customer asks for something extra and who ordered what. Coming back to the table periodically. Being quick to offer the check. And knowing, for god's sake, that I cannot leave a tip without the proper change.
And these things do not consistently happen in New York.
Disclaimer: I've only been in the city a year. And, though I eat out at least two or three times per week (though almost never at places listed in the Michelin Guide), I probably haven't been to enough places to make a truly intelligent comment. That being said, I cannot name a single restaurant that I would recommend for having good service. I can think of many that are not aggravating. Still more that are not insulting. And, further, more that are sometimes amusing.
I am sure that food servers in this town are very hard-working. They are good Christian (or insert other religion here) people, with keen minds and a genuine concern for their patrons. But, of course, that does not make what they do so diligently "good service."
Proposition: Consider posting just a few examples from Park Slope, places that you think have consistently good service. I'll sample a few, and if I am wrong, I will retract my comments and post an even longer mea culpa in this space. (And offer my hearty gratitude to the responsible poster for restoring my faith in New York servers.)
I don't see how it's absurd to list the restaurants I did when you made such an extreme blanket statement as to say that there is universally (your word, not mine) bad service here, and that there is not a single restaurant in the five boroughs with consistently good service. All of the restaurants I listed belie that statement. Maybe you meant to say that none of the inexpensive restaurants that you have tried have had good service? That might be more on the mark. I would agree that it's hard to find decent service at a cheap restaurant here, although I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions on that count too.
In Park Slope, I've had consistently good service at Tempo, and as I said above, in Prospect Heights I'd recommend Garden Cafe. They're not quite in the same take-out-a-second-mortgage range as Le Bernardin. -
Subject: This Is All Regrettably Off-Thread
Carnivore wrote: Maybe you meant to say that none of the inexpensive restaurants that you have tried have had good service? ...I would agree that it's hard to find decent service at a cheap restaurant here...
I have friends who say Tempo is outstanding; thanks. I look forward to going there, and reporting back.
...When I said it was absurd to include Le Bernardin in the discussion, I meant that most readers of this forum (indeed, most people in general) don't eat there. The service there may be perfect; the service at the U.N. is probably pretty good, too. ...
It goes without saying that I was including only those restaurants I visited. And I don't mean to limit this to "cheap" restaurants; let's call it "restaurants average diners could afford." If most entrees are over $30, then I would argue it doesn't matter if the service is good or bad.
And I recognize that "universally sucks" is rude and far-reaching, but that's been my experience. (In fact, if it weren't so egregiously off-thread, I would be prepared to expand my condemnation to all other service-related endeavors. I have been here a year, eating dinners, mailing packages, buying underwear, and I am telling you this: None of you* [as the Roman you] understand what good service is, as the rest of the country experiences it. [*IF you think you get good service in New York City.]) :!: -
How can you know that none of US know what good service is? Do you know all of us? Our backgrounds? Our experiences? Where we've lived? What type of work we've done? Where we've eaten?
Very wide-sweeping generality you have going there (very rarely a good idea).
At GT, you can eat a filet mignon at the bar with mashed potatoes for about $22. The service is ALWAYS good. I have been eating there for almost ten years and have yet to have a bad experience. Not even once. -
Grand Canyon Diner has consistently good service. :shock:
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Flexichick wrote: How can you know that none of US know what good service is? Do you know all of us? Our backgrounds? Our experiences? Where we've lived? What type of work we've done? Where we've eaten?
This is far more hysterical than I was going for. :oops: Obviously, I know none of these things. Neither does any poster in this forum. (Which, by the way, stops no one from posting about anything else.)
What led me to write what I wrote is 1) this is a forum of the type I recognize from a hundred other contexts in which people relate items of note, exchange opinions and employ rhetorical devices and 2) I am an outsider living among you.
Now, this is so far off-thread as to be absurd. And it's all my fault. And I further realize I have already rankled many of the natives lurking herein. But all I said was that if you think New York has good service, then you don't know what good service is. This observation, in my view, is immutable. I don't think it matters where you are from or what you do with your time.
Not that this makes anyone here (or any server in the city) a bad person. Or that it should interfere with your ability to enjoy a meal in New York City. Or, really, that it matters a wit at all. Myself, I am so immune to the circus that transpires everytime I sit down for a meal, that I scarcely notice. Until, that is, someone inveighs against some eatery because the service is poor. And then I make the sort of comments that I did earlier, and, apparently, chickens start to warn of impending doom. :roll: -
Username: * wrote: [quote=Flexichick]How can you know that none of US know what good service is? Do you know all of us? Our backgrounds? Our experiences? Where we've lived? What type of work we've done? Where we've eaten?
This is far more hysterical than I was going for. :oops: Obviously, I know none of these things. Neither does any poster in this forum. (Which, by the way, stops no one from posting about anything else.)
What led me to write what I wrote is 1) this is a forum of the type I recognize from a hundred other contexts in which people relate items of note, exchange opinions and employ rhetorical devices and 2) I am an outsider living among you.
Now, this is so far off-thread as to be absurd. And it's all my fault. And I further realize I have already rankled many of the natives lurking herein. But all I said was that if you think New York has good service, then you don't know what good service is. This observation, in my view, is immutable. I don't think it matters where you are from or what you do with your time.
Not that this makes anyone here (or any server in the city) a bad person. Or that it should interfere with your ability to enjoy a meal in New York City. Or, really, that it matters a wit at all. Myself, I am so immune to the circus that transpires everytime I sit down for a meal, that I scarcely notice. Until, that is, someone inveighs against some eatery because the service is poor. And then I make the sort of comments that I did earlier, and, apparently, chickens start to warn of impending doom. :roll:
No problem. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I split this off the bar minnow thread, so you don't have to feel guilty about going off-topic anymore. Now this is the topic.
I think that maybe you take for granted what New Yorkers expect to pay for. If I'm eating in a diner and spending $7 for a burger, fries and a coke, then what I expect of my server is for them to bring me my menu, take my order, bring me my food, clear the table, and bring me the check. I can get better service, but I know I'm going to have to fork over a little extra scratch for it.
That said, the service at Tom's is pretty damned good for the price. -
you beat me to it. i was going to say tom's--those people are fast, efficient and, hate to press my luck here but considering that except when nonnie is waiting tables, not a single server speaks english as a first language, the fact that they have never, ever made a single mistake with my order--down to rye toast with butter has never accidentally come out wheat--is amazing.
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Carnivore wrote: ...I think that maybe you take for granted what New Yorkers expect to pay for...
Uh, you are right. This is what I think of New Yorkers: (Almost) nothing fazes you. Which means that, to me, "good service" is not just "more" and "better" than what you get here, it's on a different plane. Which, I don't even know why I am bothering. I am like a character in one of those stupid Matrix movies, trying to tell you that your head is plugged into a computer. But, now that I consider it, that's just mean-spirited.
And, to be clear, service (good or bad) is not something (by now, anyway) that bothers me. This thread :oops: is now a whole other topic. And it makes me look like I am some kind of overwrought dandy who has to have a slice of lemon in his water. Which, I admit, I like. But I am not Leona Helmsley here. I am merely talking about courtesy.
And I was a waiter and bartender for five years. So, when I say that I'm just sayin', I really am just sayin'. Back in the world, for instance, where I come from, more often than not, when you go to a restaurant, your server will know your name by the time you leave. ...Which makes all of you yawn, I am sure.
Like I said, I am new here. Not just here, but here. And I don't mean any of this as a criticism: I love it here. But the service that I have had has been abysmal. It's changed my life, really. Made me a better person, you could say. Though maybe that does not always show through in posts like these.
I asserted as much based on what I thought was enough experience. I shall, however, endeavor to experience more. -
Good service is relative...
I think the best bartenders/waitstaff can read their customers and understand the kind of service they want. Personally, I very seldom want my server to use my name. We have a congenial (i hope) business relationship and it doesn't need to go beyond that. I HATE when people are fake nice or overly attentive. It takes outsiders time to realize that New Yorkers approach these relationships from a different place. Not rude, not universally suckie, just different. -
Good service is relative...
So with you on that, DrabRabbit.
I think the best bartenders/waitstaff can read their customers and understand the kind of service they want. Personally, I very seldom want my server to use my name. We have a congenial (i hope) business relationship and it doesn't need to go beyond that. I HATE when people are fake nice or overly attentive. It takes outsiders time to realize that New Yorkers approach these relationships from a different place. Not rude, not universally suckie, just different.
And I'll agree with the OP that service *is* an achilles heel at plenty of places, but only if we're talking about them remembering that lemon I asked for.
However, having just returned from the midwest - where we had some freakishly attentive actor-y service that totally got in the way of conversation at the table - I have to wonder what good service Username* thinks is going on out there in America.
Really, I prefer NYC where it might take a year or three for the restaurant worker to know my name, or for me to know hers/his. I don't want A Relationship, I want my dinner and I want whatever questions I have about the menu answered.
That said, lots of Indian places here have that silent swift hovering service that some people love, at affordable prices. And Babbo is impeccable...:twisted:
Places where I've found good service in PS . . . al di la, Stone Park (at the bar), Long Tan (at the bar), Bonnie's (in a bumbling, friendly way), Sheep Station (again, at the bar) I even get good service at LA Taqueria, where if you're pleasant, they're pleasant. Otherwise, it's just a race to make the next burrito.
We like to eat At The Bar, so it's actually essential that the barkeep know when to chat and when to leave us to ours . . . -
pitu wrote:
I'm from Michigan, lived in NY since '85. On the few occasions when I go back to visit, one of the things that makes me want to make a mad scramble for the airport is that kind of overly friendly and perky smiley-face wait service. One waiter (at Red Lobster, ok we should have known better, but it was the closest place to our hotel) asked my boyfriend all sorts of questions about himself while crouching by our table. Agh! Go away!Personally, I very seldom want my server to use my name. We have a congenial (i hope) business relationship and it doesn't need to go beyond that. I HATE when people are fake nice or overly attentive.
However, having just returned from the midwest - where we had some freakishly attentive actor-y service that totally got in the way of conversation at the table - I have to wonder what good service Username* thinks is going on out there in America.
Really, I prefer NYC where it might take a year or three for the restaurant worker to know my name, or for me to know hers/his. I don't want A Relationship, I want my dinner and I want whatever questions I have about the menu answered. -
I tend to eat out alone a lot, or with one or two people, so I tend to eat at the bar quite often - even at fine dining, Michelin guide places. I have NEVER had lousy service at the bar of a restaurant - and generally get a lot of freebies thrown in because it's bartender nature to do so.
Carnivore, my one experience at Wallse was not a top-of-the-line experience in terms of service. my friend and I were seated in a corner and often had to flag someone down to get more water or another glass of wine, or even to take our order. the table next to us, though it was seated after us, got prompt, efficient service, so I'm not sure what the deal was.
and OP - I think in NYC we are used to brusque service at inexpensive restaurants. but efficient and impersonal is a-ok with me as long as I get what I want. I was at lunetta last weekend and, while the service was nice and full of smiles, I always had to ask for more water. and I drink a lot of water, so after the 5th time, you'd think they'd just plonk a pitcher down if they don't want to think about it. but no. -
Ugh. I never should have mentioned the name thing; I was not talking about making friends. ...I think that whoever the wizard was who split this topic hit upon a key, unresolvable point. New Yorkers probably don't expect much, depending on where they are eating. He made a point of singling out an experience when you just go out for a burger; I still think you can expand my blanket condemnation to just about any place that has electricity.
This is what good service means to me, which you will find repeated in an unabridged form in an earlier post: A waiter ...who is quick to recognize you are sitting in his section, who can recommend something to eat, who knows what food is in what entrees, who remembers if you ask for something extra, who gives you the food you ordered without asking, who returns to the table periodically, who sees that your table is cleared, who offers dessert or coffee, and who is quick to offer the check and give the proper change. ...I am not including watiers who give you free stuff or tell funny jokes or offer to quiet a crying baby. The watch words here are competent and civil. That's all.
This may be a pointless exercise because I think what many of you consider to be good service is just familiar service, or service that is not that annoying. Not compared to what happens in the rest of your day. I'm not saying you guys don't know when you are being jobbed. I guess the point here is that it just doesn't matter as much. And I can empathize. To wit: There is this Dominican place on the Lower East Side, which I forget the address but it's just a block or three off that long, narrow Roosevelt Park. The service there is terrible, but the food is pretty good. And when I am in the neighborhood, I go back. And just order my drinks two at a time.
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New Yorkers probably don't expect much, depending on where they are eating.
I totally disagree. New Yorkers expect a lot. they just don't expect what you expect. have you been to Tom's? because you are describing the exact type of service that one receives at Tom's, and it's one of the reasons why a lot of folks have been eating there for years and years.
what many posters are saying is that there are grades of service New Yorkers expect, and the service you describe is the baseline: efficient & competent. at Tom's prices, efficient and competent is what I expect, and it's what I receive. at Babbo prices, I want more than efficient and competent - I want ESP. I want to be treated like I'm about to drop $300 on a meal for two people. I want expertise.
and there are tons of places, priced like Tom's, that don't meet the baseline of compentent and efficient, but make up for it in other ways that keeps eaters coming back: excellent food quality, congenial staff, location, etc. an example of that is The Usual. their service is 10x slower than Tom's, but it's ok. no one is expecting to place an order and receive it 2 minutes later when they go to The Usual. but they are expecting, if they're regulars, to greet the folks by name, and be greeted by name. they're not expecting a Tom's line. etc. -
Username: * wrote: This is what good service means to me, which you will find repeated in an unabridged form in an earlier post: A waiter ...who is quick to recognize you are sitting in his section, who can recommend something to eat, who knows what food is in what entrees, who remembers if you ask for something extra, who gives you the food you ordered without asking, who returns to the table periodically, who sees that your table is cleared, who offers dessert or coffee, and who is quick to offer the check and give the proper change.
That would be my definition as well, and describes most of my NYC dining experiences, including my dinner at Sette last week (food was eh, a little oversalted, but service was very good). Oh sure, I've had experiences of bad service, but that hasn't been the norm. So, the 'you can't get good service in NY' thing just does not ring true for me. -
Username: * wrote: A waiter ...who is quick to recognize you are sitting in his section, who can recommend something to eat, who knows what food is in what entrees, who remembers if you ask for something extra, who gives you the food you ordered without asking, who returns to the table periodically, who sees that your table is cleared, who offers dessert or coffee, and who is quick to offer the check and give the proper change. ...I am not including watiers who give you free stuff or tell funny jokes or offer to quiet a crying baby. The watch words here are competent and civil. That's all.
Hmm... this describes about 90% of my dining experieces in New York. Granted I have been in the industry for 10 years and have developed an instinct for picking good places but I think New York does just fine on a service scale. Okay, except for Duane Reade and the Atlantic Mall. They still suck. -
DrabRabbit wrote: ...but I think New York does just fine on a service scale. ...
Well, :oops: I know when I am licked.
I feel compelled to add, as the progenitor of sorts for this thread ...that last night I went to that No-No Kitchen, on Seventh about 7th Street or so, and the service was nearly as good as the food, and the food was phenomenal. Our server was prompt, genial and provided game-show quality definitions for remoulade, clemenceau, meuniere and tchoppitoulas. So, that shows you what I know. :roll: -
I'm actually a server at a midtown Japanese restaurant and I am constantly told by customers that I am the nicest waitress they've ever had in NYC. Having being told this by people who are used to paying around and over $100 for a meal for two , I am really surprised. I just tell them "Well, I'm not from New York" and they seem to take that as a pretty good reason.
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Anotherdayinbkln wrote: I'm actually a server at a midtown Japanese restaurant and I am constantly told by customers that I am the nicest waitress they've ever had in NYC. Having being told this by people who are used to paying around and over $100 for a meal for two , I am really surprised. I just tell them "Well, I'm not from New York" and they seem to take that as a pretty good reason.
It's my experience that most native NY'ers (okay maybe not Manhattanites), especially native Brooklynites are the friendliest people on this earth. We have a good sense of humor, and aside from the use of foul language, we are very well mannered. -
Maybe- i never experience bad service in Brooklyn, period. (except at the hardware store). For example, Red Bamboo in Fort Greene has a really good team of servers, especially the blonde guy with glasses is extremely friendly and helpful. In contrast, one of the worst service experiences I've had was at the Red Bamboo in Manhattan by Washington Sq Park. Same goes for the "coffee Shop" next to union Sq where the wait is always 25 minutes even when there are open tables.
I tip based on service because thats how I make my money. I always tip 20% if the service is satisfactory, more if its outstanding and substantially less if its awful. And i'll even leave notes on my signed credit card slip (because usually only the manager can put the tips into the computer and close the check) explaining why my tip was low. That way the managers see that customer service skills of the server aren't up to par. The main job of a server is making the customer happy, everything else comes 2nd. -
Waiting at restaurants, especially trendy and wanna be trendy seems to be a big thing now or days. I can't stand that myself. I hear about that at Stone Park, Al Di La, experienced it at a few others in the Slope. 10-1 the people the owners put in charge of that, and the owners themselves are not native to Kings County. Then again places like Taro, the Haitian place on Flatbush by Prospect Pl. and The Garden where origin of birth is in question, do a pretty good job in the service department. I usually do the 20% or more thing as well having worked in the service department in my previous life.
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laura wrote: [quote=Username: *]This is what good service means to me, which you will find repeated in an unabridged form in an earlier post: A waiter ...who is quick to recognize you are sitting in his section, who can recommend something to eat, who knows what food is in what entrees, who remembers if you ask for something extra, who gives you the food you ordered without asking, who returns to the table periodically, who sees that your table is cleared, who offers dessert or coffee, and who is quick to offer the check and give the proper change.
That would be my definition as well, and describes most of my NYC dining experiences, including my dinner at Sette last week (food was eh, a little oversalted, but service was very good). Oh sure, I've had experiences of bad service, but that hasn't been the norm. So, the 'you can't get good service in NY' thing just does not ring true for me.
I agree with you. That's my definition of good service, and it is the norm in NYC in my experience. I just spent a week in Puerto Rico (San Juan and vicinity) and every single time we went out to eat, I found myself thinking that I am really spoiled by the good service at restaurants in New York! -
I think the handful of bad experiences I've had has been at stupid trendy places that I was taken to but would never have chosen myself.
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Anotherdayinbkln wrote:
great advice
I tip based on service because thats how I make my money. I always tip 20% if the service is satisfactory, more if its outstanding and substantially less if its awful. And i'll even leave notes on my signed credit card slip (because usually only the manager can put the tips into the computer and close the check) explaining why my tip was low. That way the managers see that customer service skills of the server aren't up to par. The main job of a server is making the customer happy, everything else comes 2nd.
my personal addition to that is, tip high on the low bills (diners, Bonnie's)
and low on the high bills if wine is included (I'm not tipping 20% on a bottle of wine that the server merely opened for me)
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