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Muggings in Park Slope? - Page 2 — Brooklynian

Muggings in Park Slope?

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Comments

  • mypasswordwontwork wrote: [quote=armchair_warrior]If i was poor and a criminal. live close to a rich area. i would go to rich area to rob. thats where the money is. simple common sense. edges of rich areas is easy access and quick escape back home.
    I agree with this.

    What I disagree with is the way race is brought into it: the whole muggers=black people who storm into "rich WHITE areas" thing. Especially considering this Rushkoff person himself is far from a "rich white" and isactually so broke that he has to work two extra jobs.

    Slightly offtopic: but I see dozens of home-owning Hispanics and blacks in the north Park Slope area: especially Lincoln and Douglass between 5th and 6th and between 4th and 5th. And also on Union between 4th and 5th. Or are these very Hispanic and black looking people actually rich white people with extremely deep suntans?

    Douglas Rushkoff did not say that. He was describing what the police told him after the mugging. If you read his blog post carefully you will see that.
  • mypasswordwontwork wrote: Armchair, you are cute, by the way. ;)
    :oops: thanks, this made my year 2006 (even if it got a few days left hehe)
  • Idlewild wrote: [quote=mypasswordwontwork]Armchair, you are cute, by the way. ;)
    He looks totally different than what I imagined. He is actually looks hip. I thought he was some crazy old man who talked to his toenails during his free time.

    lol thanks :). I'm different in life. and much less crude(well sometimes).
  • armchair_warrior wrote: [quote=Idlewild][quote=mypasswordwontwork]Armchair, you are cute, by the way. ;)
    He looks totally different than what I imagined. He is actually looks hip. I thought he was some crazy old man who talked to his toenails during his free time.

    lol thanks :). I'm different in life. and much less crude(well sometimes).

    Tell that to Mypassword... not me. I don't wanna date you. You can still treat me to beer though.
  • beer on me next time.
  • LOSERS:

    It's just plain ignorant to rant about racie in this context. The overarching problem isn't race--it's poverty. And right now (and I fear, in years to come) the majority of poorer people in urban areas are non-whites. That is as f-ed up as it is true.
    I do, however, agree that once we start equating race with poverty in a blanketing way, i.e. all poor (or non-white, or, more specifically, black and latino) people are muggers, or somehow not "us", we begin to tread into uncomfortable territory. And by uncomfortable I mean non-loving and close-minded.
    But, aside from all these points, mypasswordwontwork sounds a bit like a shit-disturber. It's one thing to initiate a discussion. It's another to throw out thing like "that's what's wrong with America," etc.
    You are Rush. The anti-Rush, but Rush nonetheless.
  • Yes, and I'm as shit-disturber too, as I stared my own rant with "LOSERS".

    Guilty.
  • I've split the topic. Those wishing to further discuss mypassword's avatar can do so here.

    http://brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=32115
  • Avatars aside, back to muggings….

    Did anyone hear this story on NPR yesterday afternoon?
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6697362

    Basically, criminologists watching the crime stats all over the country have recorded a rise in violent crime across the country over the first half of 2006, the likes of which haven’t been seen since just before the ‘90s crack crime wave. They suggest it may have something to do with the release of prisoners who were locked up for their 90’s crack crimes.

    (They said more on the audio than written here, and I’m too lazy to listen again, :D but it’s an interesting piece.)
  • nomad wrote: Avatars aside, back to muggings….

    Did anyone hear this story on NPR yesterday afternoon?
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6697362

    Basically, criminologists watching the crime stats all over the country have recorded a rise in violent crime across the country over the first half of 2006, the likes of which haven’t been seen since just before the ‘90s crack crime wave. They suggest it may have something to do with the release of prisoners who were locked up for their 90’s crack crimes.

    (They said more on the audio than written here, and I’m too lazy to listen again, :D but it’s an interesting piece.)
    this is doing nothing to comfort me.
  • hey what station is npr. i been trying to find it for years on my radio. cant find that and bbc :(. i fail at finding stations on radio.

    I agree it has nothing to do with race but economics. When i was mugged by people of all races. it always been those on the lower end, either in bad areas or borderline areas.
  • brooklynpotter wrote: wnyc... 93.7
    WNYC - 93.9 fm
    http://www.wnyc.org/

    (Not nit-picking, just want armchair to find it!)
  • thanks nomad!

    hehe now you folks wanna hook me up with bbc :P.
  • steve wrote: I've split the topic. Those wishing to further discuss mypassword's avatar can do so here.

    http://brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=32115
    all the avatar flak, and resulting discussion of representation, cultural norms and porn are in The Lounge. Your posts are not deleted; just moved out of a thread about muggings.
    'k?
    with love from the soul of moderation,
    pitu
  • armchair_warrior wrote: thanks nomad!

    hehe now you folks wanna hook me up with bbc :P.
    after midnight. on am-820. wnyc npr station
    it's all bbc from midnight til about six a.m.
  • Subject: Couldn't You Just Say Brooklyn?

    Rushkoff, here.

    Interesting thoughts, here. I'm honored to have instigated a mugging conversation. I'll attempt to fill in the missing info.

    Indeed, I wasn't the one who drew the circle around the "rich white area," and explained that this area is targeted by criminals. But I don't think the detectives were suggesting that just because the targets were rich whites, that the criminals were necessarily non-whites.

    As I understand it, he was attempting to let me know that Park Slope is filled with very rich people spending upwards of a million dollars on apartments, and 2 million on houses. It is a relatively new community of rich people who live on dark, quiet, low-traffic streets.

    This wouldn't only be attractive to black criminals. And I didn't discuss the race of my particular mugger on my blog, anyway. I was more fascinated by the age - that he was at least in his 30's.

    As for the switch from knife to gun, that's the most interesting part for me (other than my attempt to humanize myself in the mugger's eyes). I remembered it as a knife, but when I described the knife to the policeman, he asked what sort of knife has as "barrel" "handle," and "trigger." And that's when I realized I had *replaced* the gun in my mind with a knife. I really thought knife, until the questioning, and then realized, oh shit, it was a gun. That only happened once before, when my best friend died in a car accident when we were driving together. He fell asleep at the wheel and we hit a tree. But for days, I was convinced the cops were going to find drugs we were stashing in the car.

    Of course, it turns out we didn't even do drugs, and had none with us at all. I had planted that false memory as a way of having something to 'work on' while my friend bled out. It was a minister who had me talk through the accident, and then helped sort out reality from brain game. He said it's really common in traumatic situations. So did the cop this time with the knife/gun replacement. (I explained this correction in the comments section of my blog. I don't like to change my original posts, because it feels a bit like lying. And it's an interesting artifact to me - my original misperception.)

    As for money and such - thanks for the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not actually broke. I didn't mean to suggest that things were so bad. Only that I *will* be broke if I continue to rent in this neighborhood, and that I feel that I'm sacrificing certain aspects of my work, as well as whatever greater contribution I may have to make as a writer/thinker, in order to stay. Two bedroom apartments here cost between 3000-4000/month, or more, and that sort of expenditure forces other issues.

    So I'm taking extra gigs, where I feel my contribution won't be best spent, in order to subsidize the rest of my career. And the money I make from the rest of my career would be more than enough to live in most other places.

    So all that goes into the "can I afford Park Slope with a family?" considerations. And I'm thinking about all this, about how my friends in the neighborhood all send or will be sending their kids to private schools, or about how a 2 bedroom apartment costs over a million bucks, and I'm wondering, 'is it all worth it?' and then I go and get mugged while taking out the garbage.

    And then a cop basically says, "you fool!" You're acting like this is the suburbs or something, when actually it's a gentrified enclave within the borough formerly known as Brooklyn. You guys are targets. "Open your eyes," he said to me, along with his (apparently incorrect assertion - according to contributors to the comments section of my blog) that muggings are shooting way up in the last few months in Park Slope.

    So that all got piled on the same stack of thoughts. My sharing these thoughts and the cops' opinions lead to accusations of racism - as well as the charge that if one believes poverty contributes to crime, he is also a racist. So the discussion on my own blog got really out of hand. And maybe it's a discussion that can't be had too easily.

    And, perhaps least surprisingly, it also led to some angry emails from homeowners in the neighborhood - claiming that my announcement of the location where I was mugged can affect their property values. "Couldn't you just say 'Brooklyn?'" one asked.

    I don't hate Brooklyn. But I do feel certain parts have gotten too expensive, and that the super-expensive "communities" within Brooklyn that some of us are buying into aren't as substantive as ones that are more heterogeneous and less gentrified.

    If there is an "us and them" thing that's annoying, I'd suggest that it is exacerbated by unnaturally accelerated gentrification.
  • Thanks for posting Rush. Could you give us an indication of which part of the Slope you live in please? Obviously you may not feel comfortable posting the actual block you're on, but is it Center, North or South Slope. Closer to PPW, 7th, 6th or 5th?

    And of course I am sorry for what happened to you. That it was actually a gun used is somehow even more frightening.
  • I hate to throw a damper on popular misconceptions, but according to a class I took in college on criminology, there is little to no statistical link between crime rates and either race or economic status. There is a higher murder rate among blacks, but otherwise criminal stats are roughly even across the spectrum, undermining the myth that poverty causes crime. By far the most common crime is theft, and theft occurs at all economic levels--was it poverty that made Dennis Kozlowski steal from Tyco? Don't think so. Even if the argument goes "Poverty and lack of education/skills forces people to turn to crime", the fact is that virtually no one turns to theft as their job. Movies notwithstanding, there are very few professional thieves out there. Lack of job opportunities might lead someone to sell drugs, for example, but in fact most drug dealers are not poor or black. Come on, none of you ever bought drugs in college from a middle-class white guy? (This is also another good reason that drugs should be legalized, but whatever.) Moreover, crime spikes at age 18 and then falls off sharply, and it's not plausible that all of the 17-18 year old thugs are just trying to bring home the bacon by joining a gang.

    So why are blacks and the poor so heavily represented in prisons and the media, despite the data? This is a more difficult question, and you can certainly point to racism as one reason, though there are many others as well. I can't necessarily draw the proper conclusion, but the stats don't support the 'poverty causes crime' argument. Ultimately, I believe people harm others because they choose to do so; we all have influences that can entice us into unethical behavior, but the vast majority of us choose to (most of the time) follow the rules. Some of us do not, and often crossing that line once and getting away with it encourages more and more such acts, until you finally do get caught. Bottom line (for me at least) is that people are responsible for their own behavior, and you're not helping yourself by buying into stereotypes and popular myths.
  • escap wrote: I hate to throw a damper on popular misconceptions, but according to a class I took in college on criminology, there is little to no statistical link between crime rates and either race or economic status. There is a higher murder rate among blacks, but otherwise criminal stats are roughly even across the spectrum, undermining the myth that poverty causes crime. By far the most common crime is theft, and theft occurs at all economic levels--was it poverty that made Dennis Kozlowski steal from Tyco? Don't think so. Even if the argument goes "Poverty and lack of education/skills forces people to turn to crime", the fact is that virtually no one turns to theft as their job. Movies notwithstanding, there are very few professional thieves out there. Lack of job opportunities might lead someone to sell drugs, for example, but in fact most drug dealers are not poor or black. Come on, none of you ever bought drugs in college from a middle-class white guy? (This is also another good reason that drugs should be legalized, but whatever.) Moreover, crime spikes at age 18 and then falls off sharply, and it's not plausible that all of the 17-18 year old thugs are just trying to bring home the bacon by joining a gang.

    So why are blacks and the poor so heavily represented in prisons and the media, despite the data? This is a more difficult question, and you can certainly point to racism as one reason, though there are many others as well. I can't necessarily draw the proper conclusion, but the stats don't support the 'poverty causes crime' argument. Ultimately, I believe people harm others because they choose to do so; we all have influences that can entice us into unethical behavior, but the vast majority of us choose to (most of the time) follow the rules. Some of us do not, and often crossing that line once and getting away with it encourages more and more such acts, until you finally do get caught. Bottom line (for me at least) is that people are responsible for their own behavior, and you're not helping yourself by buying into stereotypes and popular myths.
    Great post.
  • Subject: hmm...

    Someone simply has to tell the FBI about that class you took! They're still under a very different impression about the relationship of poverty to crime, as the NPR stories indicate. I'm not saying the FBI is correct - just that they seem to believe they are.

    As for me, I'm just below Methodist Hospital. Some long term locals have since told me that these blocks are higher in muggings because muggers want to mug hospital employees as they walk back to their cars. (Muggers and hospital employees come in all races.)

    (And, having just read through the whole comments list again, I'm still irked about being called racist and ugly for having quoted what the cops told me after I was mugged! But perhaps I shouldn't have shared that info.) :wink:
  • It seems to be a "given" here that every single person and every single comment on this board is racist except the person who is posting at the time.

    Don't take it personally ;-)
  • Subject: Re: hmm...

    rushkoff wrote: Someone simply has to tell the FBI about that class you took! They're still under a very different impression about the relationship of poverty to crime, as the NPR stories indicate. I'm not saying the FBI is correct - just that they seem to believe they are.

    As for me, I'm just below Methodist Hospital. Some long term locals have since told me that these blocks are higher in muggings because muggers want to mug hospital employees as they walk back to their cars. (Muggers and hospital employees come in all races.)

    (And, having just read through the whole comments list again, I'm still irked about being called racist and ugly for having quoted what the cops told me after I was mugged! But perhaps I shouldn't have shared that info.) :wink:
    For some reason I thought you'd posted that you live on the fringes of the Slope or something. No? By the Methodist is surely Center Slope?

    I think the cops comments to you were racist.

    How foul that muggers lurk there in order to mug the hospital employees. Maybe they mug the patients staggering in and out of the Methodist too. I'm slowly starting to hate Park Slope and Brooklyn and New York.........
  • Rushkoff, I wouldn't worry about being called racist. I think we spend too much time worrying about whether or not we and others are racist in their hearts. Who cares? It's how you act that's important--I wouldn't have a problem with the most racist person in the world if he behaved with tolerance and respect to all.

    As for the Park Slope muggings issue, I think a lot of it boils down to simple cultural conflict. There are tensions between different groups in this city, which is to be expected, and occasionally they boil over. It's not a poverty issue so much as a kind of modern tribalism, where different groups resent each other and act out that resentment violently. All the money in the world won't make that go away.

    Finally, I just read the NPR article and if anything it supports the point I made above. There is one moronic quote about how people can earn a living from "a job, welfare, or theft", but that's just a guy trying to make a point, not a serious statistical analysis. The rest of the theories on the spike in crime have to do with such things as drug addiction, the release of inmates, gun proliferation, and diversion of police resources. Unless I missed it, there's no link drawn to poverty, and in fact the article says that crime has risen across the country, in prosperous and struggling cities alike.
  • Subject: indeed

    I buy that.
    In the comments/post on my blog, I said something about having to look at true contributive factors, like gentrification, resentment, the penal code, or poverty. And then someone said I was making the poverty=crime argument which is racist.

    But I see what you're saying, and do get its sense. If anything, the "modern tribalism" phenomenon could very well have racial components, making it difficult to talk about without raising some ire. (not an Irish slur)
  • Subject: Re: Couldn't You Just Say Brooklyn?

    rushkoff wrote: And I'm thinking about all this, about how my friends in the neighborhood all send or will be sending their kids to private schools...
    You live in a neighborhood with a number of good schools other than 321 -- if I read you right, you are probably zoned for 39, where I send my own son, which is an excellent school with a new, dynamic principal. Your call, but don't make it simply on the basis of what "everyone" supposedly is doing.
  • Its about economics. I grew up in a poor white neighborhood. poor white kids will go out and rob people. anyway they moved away and got replace by a poor hispanic area.

    it has nothing to do with tribalism at all. its about money!!! right now in nyc there is more poor minorities than poor white people.

    i'm sure if we were in a poor white area. we will be getting robbed by poor white folks and start complain about them.
  • OK, for the sake of getting the facts straight, I just spent some time searching online for the latest research on the correlation between crime and poverty. It seems that, unfortunately, there is wide debate and little consensus on the subject. Some studies show correlation, some do not; furthermore, gathering accurate data on crime is very difficult because of the massive amount of unreported crime, so it's hard to say conclusively.

    However, I did find one interesting trend: though there is no conclusive evidence that absolute poverty levels correlate with higher crime levels, there is evidence that income inequality does correlate with crime. In other words, being poor doesn't make you more prone to crime, but being poor when there are rich people nearby does. The poorest states and cities do not have the highest crime rates, but the states with the most inequality do. Envy, social tension, etc., therefore seem to play a key role.
  • escap wrote: In other words, being poor doesn't make you more prone to crime, but being poor when there are rich people nearby does. The poorest states and cities do not have the highest crime rates, but the states with the most inequality do. Envy, social tension, etc., therefore seem to play a key role.
    this is not meant to be snotty at all but i'm too tired to find a more PC way to say it: perhaps there's the lower crime rate because there are fewer wealthier people to steal from?
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