Muggings in Park Slope?
Comments
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armchair_warrior wrote: i been mug too many times in my life in pre mid 90's. only one mugger was white.
And I've had knives pulled on my 6 times in my life, and all except one of them have been by People of Non-Color, including the very first time when, as a Junior High Schooler, a kid pulled a knife on me in the Projects where I lived.
- Mitchel Cohen -
brooklynpotter wrote: [quote=escap]In other words, being poor doesn't make you more prone to crime, but being poor when there are rich people nearby does. The poorest states and cities do not have the highest crime rates, but the states with the most inequality do. Envy, social tension, etc., therefore seem to play a key role.
this is not meant to be snotty at all but i'm too tired to find a more PC way to say it: perhaps there's the lower crime rate because there are fewer wealthier people to steal from?
No, you're misunderstanding. I'm not saying there is less crime in poor areas, just that crime is uncorrelated--that's a key difference. If what you are saying were true, then there would actually be more crime in wealthy areas, which would imply correlation, which is not the case.
Your comment also continues the implications that a) crime=theft; and b) theft is a rational attempt by the have-nots to take money from the haves. The first point is obviously not always true, and the second point is hard to reconcile with the vast amount of theft committed by people with plenty of money, who often take money from people who in fact have far less. It also ignores the fact that a disproportionate amount of crime is committed by juveniles, who are frankly unlikely to steal for any rational reason whatsoever. I think we all need to rethink our assumptions. -
cat wrote: [quote=armchair_warrior]i been mug too many times in my life in pre mid 90's. only one mugger was white.
And I've had knives pulled on my 6 times in my life, and all except one of them have been by People of Non-Color, including the very first time when, as a Junior High Schooler, a kid pulled a knife on me in the Projects where I lived.
- Mitchel Cohen
What race are you? I'm asking because although I've never been to the projects anywhere, several people have claimed that there are NO white people living in the Projects and that it is exclusively black and Latino. -
mypasswordwontwork wrote: [quote=cat][quote=armchair_warrior]i been mug too many times in my life in pre mid 90's. only one mugger was white.
And I've had knives pulled on my 6 times in my life, and all except one of them have been by People of Non-Color, including the very first time when, as a Junior High Schooler, a kid pulled a knife on me in the Projects where I lived.
- Mitchel Cohen
What race are you? I'm asking because although I've never been to the projects anywhere, several people have claimed that there are NO white people living in the Projects and that it is exclusively black and Latino.
thats not true at all. there are white projects. well russian ones here in brooklyn anyway
. and white american projects in staten island. -
Also, I agree with the poster who said that if you go to a poor white area, you will likely get robbed by whites. I think that the point that some of you were missing is that there are a lot of poor whites in Brooklyn also, not only poor people of color. There are several neighborhoods nearby that seem to be populated by poor Italians for example.
Also - what is poverty really? A lot of people I know (white) in the Slope are barely scraping by, are in credit card debt, can barely afford health insurance etc. There are several whites I know who work at magazines or publishing houses and earn, like 25k a year and live with lots of roommates here in the Slope. Surely earning 25k a year IS poverty. Surely a lot of "poor" minorities earn as much or more than 25k a year. So, I think this is more of a class thing. For example, a middle class young man - of any race - who graduated from, say, the New School and has a badly paid but prestigious job at Simon & Schuster may be so poor he can barely afford his rent - yet he is not likely to stick somebody up with a gun. He may get into credit card debt, but he's unlikely to go out on a mugging spree to help him pay his rent. A man of the same age, who didn't graduate high school and lives in low-income housing, who earns the the same as the middle-class man (or more than likely makes more than him) MAY be more inclined to mug people. Such a man MAY be Hispanic or Black and he also may be white. I think we need to remember that the first scenario I described does not automatically equal white and the second scenario does not necessarily indicate that the person is 'of color'.
I feel that a lot of whites seem to assume that pretty much ALL whites have a certain level of material comfort and are unlikely to live below the poverty line or commit street crimes. That is not my experience at all. The white side of my family comes from poverty and they are mainly uneducated. My father was the first person in their family to even graduate high school. Conversely, my mother is black and she is the fifth generation in her black family to be college educated (3rd generation to go to an Ivy) and her family are way higher class than my mother's to the point where they, unfortunately, look down on my dad.
It's not all black and white....
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armchair_warrior wrote: [quote=mypasswordwontwork][quote=cat][quote=armchair_warrior]i been mug too many times in my life in pre mid 90's. only one mugger was white.
And I've had knives pulled on my 6 times in my life, and all except one of them have been by People of Non-Color, including the very first time when, as a Junior High Schooler, a kid pulled a knife on me in the Projects where I lived.
- Mitchel Cohen
What race are you? I'm asking because although I've never been to the projects anywhere, several people have claimed that there are NO white people living in the Projects and that it is exclusively black and Latino.
thats not true at all. there are white projects. well russian ones here in brooklyn anyway. and white american projects in staten island.
I had no idea! Thanks. -
Weird. Because I would say that many of the country's poorest cities are the highest in crime. Camden, NJ, Detroit, MI, Baltimore, MD, St. Louis and Flint are just a few that are the most dangerous in the country and I'd be hard pressed to find many "rich" areas of those cities to prey upon for people who take other people's stuff. I would also be hard pressed to find any person who lives in those cities as saying that poverty doesn't have anything to do with the crime (all of it for that matter, not just thefts). The inequality aspect doesn't exist in those cities because many of the people have very little.
I think it is fascinating that there are people who steal from those who have less than them, but that seems to be one of those mysteries about humanity that will never have an answer. Kings stealing from serfs, serfs stealing from those who had less than them. It's an ongoing trend that seems to have existed with us for all time. -
mypasswordwontwork wrote: Also, I agree with the poster who said that if you go to a poor white area, you will likely get robbed by whites. I think that the point that some of you were missing is that there are a lot of poor whites in Brooklyn also, not only poor people of color. There are several neighborhoods nearby that seem to be populated by poor Italians for example.
Well, I think that it's not just your absolute economic position, but also what you have to lose that play into whether someone is likely to turn to crime. Your hypothetical Simon & Schuster employee may not have a lot of money, but s/he does have an education and a job likely to lead to bigger and better things, and a criminal record could undermine all of that. That probably wouldn't be as much of a consideration to the second individual in your example.
Also - what is poverty really? A lot of people I know (white) in the Slope are barely scraping by, are in credit card debt, can barely afford health insurance etc. There are several whites I know who work at magazines or publishing houses and earn, like 25k a year and live with lots of roommates here in the Slope. Surely earning 25k a year IS poverty. Surely a lot of "poor" minorities earn as much or more than 25k a year. So, I think this is more of a class thing. For example, a middle class young man - of any race - who graduated from, say, the New School and has a badly paid but prestigious job at Simon & Schuster may be so poor he can barely afford his rent - yet he is not likely to stick somebody up with a gun. He may get into credit card debt, but he's unlikely to go out on a mugging spree to help him pay his rent. A man of the same age, who didn't graduate high school and lives in low-income housing, who earns the the same as the middle-class man (or more than likely makes more than him) MAY be more inclined to mug people. Such a man MAY be Hispanic or Black and he also may be white. I think we need to remember that the first scenario I described does not automatically equal white and the second scenario does not necessarily indicate that the person is 'of color'.
Surely one's level of education and prospects for future prosperity are as important as income in determining whether one is likely to turn to crime (and as escap pointed out, I think when we say "crime" here, we're basically talking about robbery, burglary and other forms of theft). Maybe part of why this gets tied up with race in many people's minds is because inequities in educational opportunities and other forms of institutional racism lead to some racial disparity with respect to these other characteristics. -
Who thinks that muggers mug people in order to pay their rent? Christmas time has always been a good time for Muggers and Burglars regardless of the crime rate (which compared to Prospect Heights is actually pretty low, and the cops there discourage people from actually reporting crimes). I would hazard a wild guess that much of the problem is drugs, probably the really cheap drugs that have been saturating the United States for the past few years combined with budget cuts.
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Anonymous wrote: Who thinks that muggers mug people in order to pay their rent? .
Me. Everyone has to live, right? If crime is your way of making a living then presumably you pay your rent with some of the proceeds? Unless you are homeless or in prison, you gotta pay that rent or mortgage.... -
escap wrote:
The point you're trying to make by grouping white-collar crime in with street crime is a valid one. However, its disingenuous in the context of this discussion. What was being discussed here is specifically muggings and robberies. The kind of street crimes that threaten your immediate physical safety.
No, you're misunderstanding. I'm not saying there is less crime in poor areas, just that crime is uncorrelated--that's a key difference. If what you are saying were true, then there would actually be more crime in wealthy areas, which would imply correlation, which is not the case.
Your comment also continues the implications that a) crime=theft; and b) theft is a rational attempt by the have-nots to take money from the haves. The first point is obviously not always true, and the second point is hard to reconcile with the vast amount of theft committed by people with plenty of money, who often take money from people who in fact have far less. It also ignores the fact that a disproportionate amount of crime is committed by juveniles, who are frankly unlikely to steal for any rational reason whatsoever. I think we all need to rethink our assumptions.
Of course, white-collar crime (and extreme corporate greed, for that matter) also threatens one's physical well being when ordinary working people lose their pension, jobs and future financial security. But in this context it's kind of off-topic. -
I may be wrong but I tend to associate mugging and other "street crime" with people who are in some way disadvantaged and for the most part educated. White collar crime is a whole other story.
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armchair_warrior wrote: thats not true at all. there are white projects. well russian ones here in brooklyn anyway
And of course there's also the small-town sibling to the projects - the trailer parks. I'd be willing to bet that there's a small-to-nonexistent minority population among them.... and white american projects in staten island. -
As a fact, there are virtually no career thieves that are successful for any significant length of time, so no, nobody pays their rent by mugging.
If you want to discard white collar crime, the statistics still hold--with the exception of murder, there is little to no correlation between wealth and violent crime. Do some research. I know, this is shocking to me too, but what's the point of discussing all this if we're basing our opinions on myths?
My point about white collar crime is that to me, it shows the real motivation for breaking the law--human beings tend to act in their own self interest. Period. If you believe you can benefit from an act and you believe you can get away with it, you will do it more often than not. Change the game so that it's not in people's self interest to commit crimes (e.g. by legalizing drugs, prostitution, gambling and other 'sin' crimes, and by enforcing existing laws effectively enough that people don't believe they can get away with breaking them) and you will see crime fall. In the same vein, there is a strong inverse correlation between the organization level in a community and its crime rate--most people will not commit crimes in their communities if they face social censure and ostracism. Sometimes, because some poor communities lack social cohesion, people mistake lack of money as the cause of crime, but it's lack of community instead that is the far stronger cause. -
escap wrote: As a fact, there are virtually no career thieves that are successful for any significant length of time, so no, nobody pays their rent by mugging.
I agree with you that prostitution should be legalized. I wouldn't mind turning a trick or two during months where I've spent too much at Bergdorfs
If you want to discard white collar crime, the statistics still hold--with the exception of murder, there is little to no correlation between wealth and violent crime. Do some research. I know, this is shocking to me too, but what's the point of discussing all this if we're basing our opinions on myths?
My point about white collar crime is that to me, it shows the real motivation for breaking the law--human beings tend to act in their own self interest. Period. If you believe you can benefit from an act and you believe you can get away with it, you will do it more often than not. Change the game so that it's not in people's self interest to commit crimes (e.g. by legalizing drugs, prostitution, gambling and other 'sin' crimes, and by enforcing existing laws effectively enough that people don't believe they can get away with breaking them) and you will see crime fall. In the same vein, there is a strong inverse correlation between the organization level in a community and its crime rate--most people will not commit crimes in their communities if they face social censure and ostracism. Sometimes, because some poor communities lack social cohesion, people mistake lack of money as the cause of crime, but it's lack of community instead that is the far stronger cause. -
mypasswordwontwork wrote: I agree with you that prostitution should be legalized. I wouldn't mind turning a trick or two during months where I've spent too much at Bergdorfs
mypasswordwontwork wrote: I like D'Mai Urban Spa on 5th avenue and Degraw. I'm a part-time Escort and several of my clients pay me in D'Mai gift certificates.
:? :shock: :? :shock: -
WhyFi wrote: [quote=armchair_warrior]thats not true at all. there are white projects. well russian ones here in brooklyn anyway
And of course there's also the small-town sibling to the projects - the trailer parks. I'd be willing to bet that there's a small-to-nonexistent minority population among them.... and white american projects in staten island.
Of course there is a minority population in them now, post-Katrina! -
alafairnadia wrote: [quote=mypasswordwontwork]I agree with you that prostitution should be legalized. I wouldn't mind turning a trick or two during months where I've spent too much at Bergdorfs
mypasswordwontwork wrote: I like D'Mai Urban Spa on 5th avenue and Degraw. I'm a part-time Escort and several of my clients pay me in D'Mai gift certificates.
:? :shock: :? :shock:
Right now I only do actual Escort and no sex or sexual acts. Why? You wanna hire me? -
Subject: Re: Couldn't You Just Say Brooklyn?
rushkoff wrote: Rushkoff, here.
OK, James Frey and wife. On to the next lie. Next time, get yer stories straight...
Interesting thoughts, here. I'm honored to have instigated a mugging conversation. I'll attempt to fill in the missing info.
Indeed, I wasn't the one who drew the circle around the "rich white area," and explained that this area is targeted by criminals. But I don't think the detectives were suggesting that just because the targets were rich whites, that the criminals were necessarily non-whites.
As I understand it, he was attempting to let me know that Park Slope is filled with very rich people spending upwards of a million dollars on apartments, and 2 million on houses. It is a relatively new community of rich people who live on dark, quiet, low-traffic streets.
This wouldn't only be attractive to black criminals. And I didn't discuss the race of my particular mugger on my blog, anyway. I was more fascinated by the age - that he was at least in his 30's.
As for the switch from knife to gun, that's the most interesting part for me (other than my attempt to humanize myself in the mugger's eyes). I remembered it as a knife, but when I described the knife to the policeman, he asked what sort of knife has as "barrel" "handle," and "trigger." And that's when I realized I had *replaced* the gun in my mind with a knife. I really thought knife, until the questioning, and then realized, oh shit, it was a gun. That only happened once before, when my best friend died in a car accident when we were driving together. He fell asleep at the wheel and we hit a tree. But for days, I was convinced the cops were going to find drugs we were stashing in the car.
Of course, it turns out we didn't even do drugs, and had none with us at all. I had planted that false memory as a way of having something to 'work on' while my friend bled out. It was a minister who had me talk through the accident, and then helped sort out reality from brain game. He said it's really common in traumatic situations. So did the cop this time with the knife/gun replacement. (I explained this correction in the comments section of my blog. I don't like to change my original posts, because it feels a bit like lying. And it's an interesting artifact to me - my original misperception.)
As for money and such - thanks for the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not actually broke. I didn't mean to suggest that things were so bad. Only that I *will* be broke if I continue to rent in this neighborhood, and that I feel that I'm sacrificing certain aspects of my work, as well as whatever greater contribution I may have to make as a writer/thinker, in order to stay. Two bedroom apartments here cost between 3000-4000/month, or more, and that sort of expenditure forces other issues.
So I'm taking extra gigs, where I feel my contribution won't be best spent, in order to subsidize the rest of my career. And the money I make from the rest of my career would be more than enough to live in most other places.
So all that goes into the "can I afford Park Slope with a family?" considerations. And I'm thinking about all this, about how my friends in the neighborhood all send or will be sending their kids to private schools, or about how a 2 bedroom apartment costs over a million bucks, and I'm wondering, 'is it all worth it?' and then I go and get mugged while taking out the garbage.
And then a cop basically says, "you fool!" You're acting like this is the suburbs or something, when actually it's a gentrified enclave within the borough formerly known as Brooklyn. You guys are targets. "Open your eyes," he said to me, along with his (apparently incorrect assertion - according to contributors to the comments section of my blog) that muggings are shooting way up in the last few months in Park Slope.
So that all got piled on the same stack of thoughts. My sharing these thoughts and the cops' opinions lead to accusations of racism - as well as the charge that if one believes poverty contributes to crime, he is also a racist. So the discussion on my own blog got really out of hand. And maybe it's a discussion that can't be had too easily.
And, perhaps least surprisingly, it also led to some angry emails from homeowners in the neighborhood - claiming that my announcement of the location where I was mugged can affect their property values. "Couldn't you just say 'Brooklyn?'" one asked.
I don't hate Brooklyn. But I do feel certain parts have gotten too expensive, and that the super-expensive "communities" within Brooklyn that some of us are buying into aren't as substantive as ones that are more heterogeneous and less gentrified.
If there is an "us and them" thing that's annoying, I'd suggest that it is exacerbated by unnaturally accelerated gentrification. -
Poostar, grow up.
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Jesus christ, poostar. Can't you just post a link?
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NY Times reports an increase in murders, but a drop in other crimes, for 2006:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/01/nyregion/01crime.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
There's an interesting observation, that one would think the growing income gap would lead to more crime, but so far has not seemed to:
"Yet what is puzzling, one expert said, is that overall crime is dropping even as New York becomes an increasingly polarized city, with haves and have-nots often living side by side in luxury condominiums and public housing.
“Within a few blocks, people are living worlds apart,†said Andrew Karmen, a sociology professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice and the author of “New York Murder Mystery: The True Story Behind the Crime Crash of the 1990s.â€
“In theory, that should make the poor more dissatisfied and drive people to commit crimes,†he said. “But that doesn’t seem to be happening in New York.â€
One possible explanation, Dr. Karmen said, is that the city is largely populated by immigrants, many of whom are driven by a determination to succeed.
“I think they still maintain a positive outlook and faith in the American dream,†he said. “But if it doesn’t deliver, attitudes could change.â€" -
a discussion of who is a "have" and who is a "have not" started up here
and appeared to have a life of it's own, unrelated to local muggings
it can be found in The Lounge
http://brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=32160
happy new year everyone! -
for those interested in the drugs:crime connection, an interesting opinion piece in the NYT today
I posted excerpts and a link in The Lounge
http://brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=339520 -
Why can't we just let facts speak for themselves. Seems like you can't say ANYTHING here, for fear of being called a racist. But like the 78th precinct will tell you, they're not white. Sorry "mypassedon't work" but- your P.C. women-beat-up-men-too b.s. is WRONG!! As is your stupid SEXIST picture of whaa??? A WHITE WOMAN on her hands and knees? :shock:
I'll tell ya-I've ONLY been mugged by black guys, and ONLY have had shoplifters who were either teenagers or black people. SO what. That's the reality. P.C. or not--I"m so tired of white aplogists and exemptions proving the rule to make your point. As Spike Lee said,"WAKE UP!!!" -
The Chipster wrote: Sorry "mypassedon't work" but- your P.C. women-beat-up-men-too b.s. is WRONG!!
I didn't ever say that women beat up men ( I believe somebody else did, though). Although I'd be interested to hear/see what proof you have that they indeed don't.The Chipster wrote: As is your stupid SEXIST picture of whaa??? A WHITE WOMAN on her hands and knees? :shock:
It's a black woman actually or possibly a biracial woman - like me.The Chipster wrote: I'll tell ya-I've ONLY been mugged by black guys, and ONLY have had shoplifters who were either teenagers or black people. SO what. That's the reality. P.C. or not--I"m so tired of white aplogists and exemptions proving the rule to make your point. As Spike Lee said,"WAKE UP!!!"
That's your experience and it's definitely unfortunate to have been mugged several times - nobody would want that. But . That's your reality, not the reality. You may only have beem mugged by black men. That does not mean that it is only black men who mug... -
don't start flamin', kids.
we're tired of that already . . .
:roll:
Rule #1 of this site: Be Nice or Leave.
Not puppies and kittens "nice", etc.
Read it (linked at the top of every page) if you need to. -
pitu wrote: don't start flamin', kids.
Ok, so the last of my 3 comments in the post above was not that friendly and I've decided to edit it to something less confrontational. I don't see a problem with the other two comments though.
we're tired of that already . . .
:roll:
Rule #1 of this site: Be Nice or Leave.
Not puppies and kittens "nice", etc.
Read it (linked at the top of every page) if you need to. -
OK, pitu. Respect. And mypass, tis a bit my bad for not reading the posts thoroughly. I am an exciteable creature; and not at all p.c. However, I can abide by the rules. When needed.
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