another angry rant about out-of-control children
i know we've talked this one to death, but over a lunch filled with with super antsy children at the next table, my friend and i started sharing war stories.
i have to believe that there are other children in other parts of the country who act this way. or, more so, whose parents allow them to act this way. this, i strongly believe, is the problem. if i acted in the manner these children did when i was little, i wouldn't have been taken to restaurants. it was a well-known fact in our family--and all the other families i know--that good manners were required in restaurants and if you didn't have good manners you would be taken to them. so what's the deal? some recent examples, both mine and my friend's.
--sitting in the park enjoying a lovely day and having kids with kites start running by my blanket. one kid dragged his kite across my blanket twice, thwapping me on the face in the process. barely an apology from the moms.
--working a craft fair before the holiday, placing myself in the corner because i knew my things were breakable, and having children running laps through the room, en masse, while their parents just stood there chatting with their friends.
--sitting on the church steps being interviewed, with a microphone so it was obvious, and having two young girls running all around us while the mom stood on the sidewalk talking on her cell-phone. the mom twice asked them in a very measly voice to come down. only they didn't and she kept taking on the phone.
--sitting at the tea lounge, there were two children running by who smashed her lunch onto the floor with their fists. my friend approached the mom, who then told her that she should know better than to leave her lunch on the edge of the table. then refused to buy her a new lunch. she went to talk to the manager, and he wouldn't give her a new lunch either. her lunch was a bagel
--having pizza at an upper scale restaurant over the holidays, my friend watched a child pull down an entire christmas display, wreaths and lights, and when the manager came over the mom look at him and shrugged and said in some snotty voice, something like 'what do you expect me to do about it?'
--eating brunch outdoors in north slope and sitting near a family with children would wouldn't sit in their seat, children who were running around and bothering patrons. the child even KICKED some other patrons, and when my friend approached the mother she got the same response as above. (i will say, however, that once the kid kicked the manager he asked them to leave)
--and i won't even get into our lunch yesterday, where the children at the next table were playing some hand game that involved banging on the table, running around the restaurant, and covering the floor with soggy sugar packets and half their breakfast.
i refuse to believe it's only park slope children, because i know some who are really nice. regardless, why is this acceptable?
i have to believe that there are other children in other parts of the country who act this way. or, more so, whose parents allow them to act this way. this, i strongly believe, is the problem. if i acted in the manner these children did when i was little, i wouldn't have been taken to restaurants. it was a well-known fact in our family--and all the other families i know--that good manners were required in restaurants and if you didn't have good manners you would be taken to them. so what's the deal? some recent examples, both mine and my friend's.
--sitting in the park enjoying a lovely day and having kids with kites start running by my blanket. one kid dragged his kite across my blanket twice, thwapping me on the face in the process. barely an apology from the moms.
--working a craft fair before the holiday, placing myself in the corner because i knew my things were breakable, and having children running laps through the room, en masse, while their parents just stood there chatting with their friends.
--sitting on the church steps being interviewed, with a microphone so it was obvious, and having two young girls running all around us while the mom stood on the sidewalk talking on her cell-phone. the mom twice asked them in a very measly voice to come down. only they didn't and she kept taking on the phone.
--sitting at the tea lounge, there were two children running by who smashed her lunch onto the floor with their fists. my friend approached the mom, who then told her that she should know better than to leave her lunch on the edge of the table. then refused to buy her a new lunch. she went to talk to the manager, and he wouldn't give her a new lunch either. her lunch was a bagel
--having pizza at an upper scale restaurant over the holidays, my friend watched a child pull down an entire christmas display, wreaths and lights, and when the manager came over the mom look at him and shrugged and said in some snotty voice, something like 'what do you expect me to do about it?'
--eating brunch outdoors in north slope and sitting near a family with children would wouldn't sit in their seat, children who were running around and bothering patrons. the child even KICKED some other patrons, and when my friend approached the mother she got the same response as above. (i will say, however, that once the kid kicked the manager he asked them to leave)
--and i won't even get into our lunch yesterday, where the children at the next table were playing some hand game that involved banging on the table, running around the restaurant, and covering the floor with soggy sugar packets and half their breakfast.
i refuse to believe it's only park slope children, because i know some who are really nice. regardless, why is this acceptable?
Comments
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Cue Kensington Mom to tell you how you'll feel differently once you have kids...
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carnivore, i wouldn't let my CAT act this way. my cat hates people, and if she acts up when they come over she gets locked away.
plus, how does one justify their child kicking people? -
brooklynpotter wrote: my cat hates people
I tell ya, the more stories like this I hear, the more I'm on her side.
It's all a mystery to me. -
So tired. So boring. Have we run out of things to talk about?
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Yeah, thanks for your input "Jamzer."
We'll all treasure it. -
I believe that children act this way everywhere. But I also have my own little theory about this particular misbehavior you write about, based on the children of my friends that fit the profile: they are the offspring of Gen-Xers—of which I am one—who feel their upbringing was too strict and/or repressive and fall victim to “I’m-not-going-to-do-that-to-my-kids†syndrome. People that were raised with proper manners, respect for their elders, and a healthy fear of punishment—corporeal or otherwise—have decided that their children need to be able to “express†themselves in ways they were not allowed to. (There was a reason why WE weren’t allowed to “express†ourselves, damn it! As a matter of fact, I remember as a kid overhearing my parents, uncles and family friends talk about how couples that had misbehaving kids were shunned by other parents and not invited to birthdays and other activities.) I saw it happen to almost all of the children of my contemporaries. My former brother-in-law was a prime example of this approach to parenting. I’d heard his side of the story so I asked his sister—my then wife—about their upbringing and it turns out that their mom was a level-headed disciplinarian and he was a brat (he admits to both counts). So, he decided he was going to let his children have the kind of “freedom†he never had. Great. Of course, because deep down he knows better, he would frequently want to reign in the kids. Often with disastrous results for the children.
I love kids. I hope to have some in the near future. And I will do my utmost to raise them in a loving, nurturing manner that will give them the confidence and self-esteem to face the obstacles they will encounter in life. But trust me, they WILL NOT be acting out in public, unnecessarily bothering other people and getting away with it. I was raised better than that.
PS: Based on your friend’s version of the bagel incident, the Tea Lounge manager was an IDIOT. It was bad business sense at the very least on his/her part. (Although I do hear that the moms “own†the 7th Ave TL during the day.) And any similar establishment that does not call the parent(s) to task and ask them to leave if things have gotten out of hand deserves to be informed of how we feel about it. Or lose our patronage.
PPS: The “wait-til-you-have-your-own-kids†routine is a cop out. Sure, it’s not the same until you’ve lived it yourself, but it also implies that once I have my own I’m going to lose all sense of decorum, respect and tolerance for other people’s space. That’s condescending at best, rather offensive at worst. -
FYI for those who haven't followed the boards for long, my comment was a sarcastic reference to a (formerly) frequent poster who tends to be dismissive about any critique of local permissive parenting habits or entitled parental behavior.
This thread is a classic example:
http://brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=679 -
I 100% agree with bklynpotter's sentiment here. Unfortunately, the only people who act even more rude and inconsiderate than children are adults. It's hard to walk around the city for more than an hour without encountering jaw-dropping disregard for others, be it at movie theaters, checkout lines, the subway, parks, or wherever. And somehow it never fails to shock me, or to piss me off. :x
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A really smart and informed reply MichaelKeys. Makes complete sense to me. In fact, my brother-in-law gave these very reasons (“I’m-not-going-to-do-that-to-my-kidsâ€) for allowing his own kids to run free and be irreverent. Every time we went to dinner with them I was horrifed. I agree about calling them on it/not frequenting places where the management just ignores rude parents who ruin the experience for others by allowing their kids be inconsiderate. I should include a similar rant about the same people I run into at various restaurants in town who don't want to wait for a table and cut in front of the line to which the management just shrugs and says "what do you want me to do?"
MichaelKeys wrote: I believe that children act this way everywhere. But I also have my own little theory about this particular misbehavior you write about, based on the children of my friends that fit the profile: they are the offspring of Gen-Xers—of which I am one—who feel their upbringing was too strict and/or repressive and fall victim to “I’m-not-going-to-do-that-to-my-kids†syndrome. People that were raised with proper manners, respect for their elders, and a healthy fear of punishment—corporeal or otherwise—have decided that their children need to be able to “express†themselves in ways they were not allowed to. (There was a reason why WE weren’t allowed to “express†ourselves, damn it! As a matter of fact, I remember as a kid overhearing my parents, uncles and family friends talk about how couples that had misbehaving kids were shunned by other parents and not invited to birthdays and other activities.) I saw it happen to almost all of the children of my contemporaries. My former brother-in-law was a prime example of this approach to parenting. I’d heard his side of the story so I asked his sister—my then wife—about their upbringing and it turns out that their mom was a level-headed disciplinarian and he was a brat (he admits to both counts). So, he decided he was going to let his children have the kind of “freedom†he never had. Great. Of course, because deep down he knows better, he would frequently want to reign in the kids. Often with disastrous results for the children.
I love kids. I hope to have some in the near future. And I will do my utmost to raise them in a loving, nurturing manner that will give them the confidence and self-esteem to face the obstacles they will encounter in life. But trust me, they WILL NOT be acting out in public, unnecessarily bothering other people and getting away with it. I was raised better than that.
PS: Based on your friend’s version of the bagel incident, the Tea Lounge manager was an IDIOT. It was bad business sense at the very least on his/her part. (Although I do hear that the moms “own†the 7th Ave TL during the day.) And any similar establishment that does not call the parent(s) to task and ask them to leave if things have gotten out of hand deserves to be informed of how we feel about it. Or lose our patronage.
PPS: The “wait-til-you-have-your-own-kids†routine is a cop out. Sure, it’s not the same until you’ve lived it yourself, but it also implies that once I have my own I’m going to lose all sense of decorum, respect and tolerance for other people’s space. That’s condescending at best, rather offensive at worst. -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
brooklynpotter wrote: i refuse to believe it's only park slope children, because i know some who are really nice. regardless, why is this acceptable?
In my experience, it's worse in the Slope and in the New York area in general than anywhere else I have spent a significant amount of time. Not scientific of course, but I can only tell you what I have seen - and the abdication of parental responsibility I often witness around here is puzzling.
Stories upon request. -
i behave
. or a good wacking sounds comes. -
I guess there must be something to this complaint, because I see it all the time, but I just don't seem to run into all these awful children. Maybe because I stay out of the Tea Lounge, because their coffee is bad and their sofas are skeevy. Though I have noticed that if I walk around looking for things to be pissed off about, I will find them.
Interesting theory about Gen-X childraising practices, though I would have thought it applied much more to the Baby Boomers. I guess at 40 I'm on the older end of Gen-X and I did not find my upbringing to be particularly structured or rigid as my parents (and many of my friends' parents) were too busy during the '70s playing "free to be you and me" and "finding themselves" through est or jogging or open marriage to pay all that much attention to what the kids were up to. At least partly in response, I've raised my kids in a fairly structured way, with clearly defined rules and so forth. -
GiGi wrote: A really smart and informed reply MichaelKeys.
Thanks GiGi.GiGi wrote: I should include a similar rant about the same people I run into at various restaurants in town who don't want to wait for a table and cut in front of the line to which the management just shrugs and says "what do you want me to do?"
"I want you to do your job, is what I want. Let them know they are..."
You know what? Screw 'em. If they condone that kinda thing I don't wanna eat there, anyway. Who knows, they might pull a "what do you want me to do?" when the food is screwed up or your bill is padded.
Which brings me back to, once again, the adults. So, don't blame the kids--blame their lousy parents. And do so. Trust me, if I'd been "performing" like one of these kids, by the time you were getting up to complain to my folks, they were already taking care of it. I love them dearly, btw. (Dad, not so much. hahahahahahaha j/k) -
Carnivore wrote: FYI for those who haven't followed the boards for long, my comment was a sarcastic reference to a (formerly) frequent poster who tends to be dismissive about any critique of local permissive parenting habits or entitled parental behavior.
Wow I popped on here to see if you guys were discussing Douglas Rushkoff's recent mugging, his blog and his anti-slope comments made today on NPR and low and behold I discover Carnivore discussing me. Uhm, Thanks!?
As you will recall, I am NOT dismissive about local permissive parenting styles--I am the one who criticizes indulgence and overprivilege that I think often goes hand in hand with attitudes of entitlement and bratty behavior. I am happily raising my polite kids in a less affluent neighborhood. Maybe you are confused because I did and do defend the right of parents to use double strollers to transport two young children around.
I think a discussion about Douglas Rushkoff's mugging and his blog would be a much more interesting topic then this one. -
kensingtonmom wrote: I think a discussion about Douglas Rushkoff's mugging and his blog would be a much more interesting topic then this one.
That got discussed pretty thoroughly already last week:
http://brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=32089 -
apollonia666 wrote: [quote=kensingtonmom]I think a discussion about Douglas Rushkoff's mugging and his blog would be a much more interesting topic then this one.
That got discussed pretty thoroughly already last week:
http://brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=32089
thanks I haven't been coming over here in a while and I just noticed that thread a couple minutes ago. His blog seemed more interesting then the thread I guess. -
bklyngirl wrote: Brooklynpotter, I've read your posts and you don't seem like you can get along with anybody. Last I checked, the park was precisely the place one went to run with a kite. The Tea Lounge has turned into a joke about being breastfeeding central - so why are you so shocked to see kids there? Or is it the fact that no one apologized to *you*? Are you that self-important? You were being interviewed and a kid ran by?
she gets along with me just fine. and i'm a total pain in the ass.
get a grip, and perhaps, some therapy.
tho to this topic, given all the rudeness, insults and personal attacks flung at one another on this board day in and day out, its hard to imagine children learning any kind of respect at all.
when I was growing up, if we misbehaved we got punished. and just that look in moms eye told me not to step out of line. but she also told me that if I dont have anything nice to say to someone, i shouldn't say anything at all.
so rather than the daily lamentation we have over here about how everyone else is rude and everyone else has bratty children, maybe we should all look at treating one another better first (myself totally included in this sweeping generalization), even behind the cloak of this binary little environment we have. maybe then the kids will learn by example.
just a thought. -
kensingtonmom wrote: [quote=Carnivore]FYI for those who haven't followed the boards for long, my comment was a sarcastic reference to a (formerly) frequent poster who tends to be dismissive about any critique of local permissive parenting habits or entitled parental behavior.
Wow I popped on here to see if you guys were discussing Douglas Rushkoff's recent mugging, his blog and his anti-slope comments made today on NPR and low and behold I discover Carnivore discussing me. Uhm, Thanks!?
As you will recall, I am NOT dismissive about local permissive parenting styles--I am the one who criticizes indulgence and overprivilege that I think often goes hand in hand with attitudes of entitlement and bratty behavior. I am happily raising my polite kids in a less affluent neighborhood. Maybe you are confused because I did and do defend the right of parents to use double strollers to transport two young children around.
I think a discussion about Douglas Rushkoff's mugging and his blog would be a much more interesting topic then this one.
Didn't hear it, what anti slope comments did he make? -
Subject: kids' behavior are adults' responsibilities
One time I was walking on the street and a kid playing in front of their apartment suddenly hit me. And said Fack You. He was like, 3 years old. The other kid, apparently an elder brother, was loughing. Walking on your blanket is more acceptable than that. I was so shocked. I feel bad for kids who does not know better than that. Obviously it's their parents' fault that they were growing up like that. -
I feel bad for kids who does not know better than that. Obviously it's their parents' fault that they were growing up like that.
A 3 year old hit you and his brother laughed. boo hoo. Seriously - get over yourselves.
Perhaps it's the fault of *your* parents that you seem to have so little tolerance for others.
Children are in the *process* of learning how to behave in public. Sorry, but a 3 year old hasn't quite mastered the art yet. Apparently, neither have many of you.
I'm not tring to bait; I just really shocked at the intolerance people have toward kids, and the snap judgements they make upon parents, as if you are all so perfect. -
What!?! Are you crazy. If someone came up to me, hit me and said Fuck You, I'd say that's way beyond the line. Kid or not. That's bad parenting. I never cursed when I was young, it wasn't allowed. In my teens I finally started, but never in the house. I never hit anyone either.
Sadly, that 3 year old probably learned that behavior by seeing someone do the same. Perhaps domestic violence, perhaps just a bad older brother. Nevertheless, this type of behavior is sign of what's to come. How could a little kid be filled with anger like that?
It's not about the person hit, it's about the child and the parents, in general it's also about our society and what we value. Do we value respect, compassion, kindness? With Bush out there bullying the world, I guess not.
But then, I wasn't there. I can't say what was going through the kids mind.... -
bklyngirl wrote:
I feel bad for kids who does not know better than that. Obviously it's their parents' fault that they were growing up like that.
A 3 year old hit you and his brother laughed. boo hoo. Seriously - get over yourselves.
Perhaps it's the fault of *your* parents that you seem to have so little tolerance for others.
Children are in the *process* of learning how to behave in public. Sorry, but a 3 year old hasn't quite mastered the art yet. Apparently, neither have many of you.
I'm not tring to bait; I just really shocked at the intolerance people have toward kids, and the snap judgements they make upon parents, as if you are all so perfect.
OK, I am sorry, I am a parent and that is just crazy! They are supposed to lbow it off because it was a 3 year old? And, the older brother laughed? So, obviously the kids have been taught no manners whatsoever! Tha tis not cute or funny because it came out of a 3 year olds mouth, it's horrible! -
bklyngirl wrote:
Oh, please. :-({|=
Perhaps it's the fault of *your* parents that you seem to have so little tolerance for others.
Children are in the *process* of learning how to behave in public. Sorry, but a 3 year old hasn't quite mastered the art yet. Apparently, neither have many of you.
I'm not tring to bait; I just really shocked at the intolerance people have toward kids, and the snap judgements they make upon parents, as if you are all so perfect.
My folks NEVER abdicated their responsibilty as parents by excusing our poor behavior on infancy and thereby washing their hands of the situation. They taught us how to be polite and respectful. And when we weren't, we got punished. Period. They didn't take us to places that weren't age appropriate--like bars, for instance--and sure didn't sheepishly smile at whomever we may have unnecessarily inopportuned or said "get over it, he's just a kid" to the other party. And we rarely, if ever, did it again. They loved us and gave us everything they could and taught us to stand up for ourselves. But they made damn sure we didn't think of ourselves as the center of the universe.
I'm pretty sure NO ONE here has a problem with well-behaved children and their responsible parents. And it's not so much the unruly kids but their overly permissive, bad behavior-enabling, just-deal-with-it-pal, parents that gets people riled up.
Sheesh.
(And the next time someone asks a smoker sitting outside at The Gate to put out his/her cigarette because of their kid, I hope not to be there. That's going to be scary. Yikes!) -
Mamacita wrote: I never cursed when I was young, it wasn't allowed. In my teens I finally started, but never in the house. I never hit anyone either.
I hear ya: I'm a grown man and I STILL feel weird about cursing in front of my mom. And trust me, we're not prudes and she was no drill sergeant disciplinarian, either. Just a "respect your elders" thing that I learned from...let's see...who was it again..? Oh, yeah: Mom and Dad. -
I'm not tring to bait; I just really shocked at the intolerance people have toward kids, and the snap judgements they make upon parents, as if you are all so perfect.
Well, if I may counter non-bait you, I feel that the sort of tolerance that you endorse leads to crap behavior when translated into parenting.
As far as judging the parents of ill-behaved is concerned: I acknowledge that most of them mean well as per some theories stated above, but some are too distracted or lazy to do their jobs. -
Mamacita, I feel extactly the same way. I am fully aware that kids sometime misbehave, and people should be acceptive and generous, because they are kids, after all. They do not know what is rude or what bothers people until they learned through experience, and by other people like parents. What shocked me was how that 3 years old was using the bad wards, which 3 years old should not even be exposed, which I believe is totally because of the environment that they are in. The baby hit me, and not only the baby but also the elder brother did not even seems like they think it is bad thing to hurt people. Obviously, they were not brought up the way that the do not know that is bad thing. I personally believe that is very important for parents to teach their kids not to hurm others, which I think a very basic rule as a human. Obviously they are not told that. Intorelance to the babies is not an issue here.
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I think maybe some people here need to be a little more tolerant of others, but I also think the behavior of the 3-year-old described above is pretty shocking and awful.
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Just a reminder to all: That link at the top of EVERY page on the site that says "READ THE RULES"? Yeah, try READING THE RULES. Personal attacks = not cool.
Bklyngirl, I'm removing one of your posts for this reason. Please read the PM I've sent you.
Brooklynpotter, I've removed your response to the abovementioned post -- wasn't anything wrong with your post, but it did quote the one I'm removing in its entirety. -
I think everyone on here is reasonable enough to know that kids are going to be kids. Kids run, kids scream, kids knock things over, kids cry, kids are...well, kids.
It really comes back to the parents. PS parents (and this does seem endemic to here, having lived all over NYC) seem determined not to let the fact they have kids get in the way of their lifestyle. These parents find nothing wrong with dragging their kids to a 10pm dinner at crowded, popular restaurant on a Saturday night. Or a late movie, or to a art show, or whatever the inappropriate situation is.
Parenting is putting your children before yourself, something a lot of these PS parents don't seem to get. Obviously, there are those who do this correctly, but it's certainly not the majority... -
Mamacita wrote: I never cursed when I was young, it wasn't allowed. In my teens I finally started, but never in the house.
Same here. Or more precisely, I cursed ONCE, and my parents made it abundantly clear it wasn't to happen again.
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