Law, Landlord and Locks, Oh My
I could use some real legal advice on this one. I am not sure what I can do here.
The story:
I've been living here a year and a half. My door has a single lock, built into the door handle... not like bathroom door, but just above the handle, all in one piece. Nothing more. I want a deadbolt. Every other apartment in the very large building has one. Literally.
There is a hole in the door that has already been cut for a deadbolt. It has a little plate over it right now that is painted on, but its plain as day that it is there. Likewise, there is a corresponding latch hole in the door jam... also filled in and painted over, but it couldn't be hard to scrape it out.
So I asked the landlord to put in a lock. He said, through the management company, that I was legally not entitled to one, because it is considered an "add on" to my apartment. Now my personal opinion of said stinginess aside, I can't find anything to support that this isn't true. Fine, whatever. I will put the lock in myself. (cheap bastard)
so here is my question. If its an add-on, technically, I can take it when I leave right? I mean, if I am paying for it, its coming with me when I leave... he is not going to make a dime off of me. I can put the plate over the hole when I leave just like I found it. It really only looks bad for him because whoever comes after me will assume the lock is a part of the apartment, only to find there is no lock when they move in.. just the crappy thing that is there now. but like i said, if he is going to nickel and dime me, i'm going to do the same.
even our mailboxes are falling apart and the renters and postal people complain about it and he doesnt want to fix them.
oh, and legally he has to install a chain. so i am going to make him do that. either way he is pony-ing up some bucks for this... it just seems like the easier way would be to pay for the freaking lock, which won't be all that much more expensive anyway. but whatever.
thoughts?
The story:
I've been living here a year and a half. My door has a single lock, built into the door handle... not like bathroom door, but just above the handle, all in one piece. Nothing more. I want a deadbolt. Every other apartment in the very large building has one. Literally.
There is a hole in the door that has already been cut for a deadbolt. It has a little plate over it right now that is painted on, but its plain as day that it is there. Likewise, there is a corresponding latch hole in the door jam... also filled in and painted over, but it couldn't be hard to scrape it out.
So I asked the landlord to put in a lock. He said, through the management company, that I was legally not entitled to one, because it is considered an "add on" to my apartment. Now my personal opinion of said stinginess aside, I can't find anything to support that this isn't true. Fine, whatever. I will put the lock in myself. (cheap bastard)
so here is my question. If its an add-on, technically, I can take it when I leave right? I mean, if I am paying for it, its coming with me when I leave... he is not going to make a dime off of me. I can put the plate over the hole when I leave just like I found it. It really only looks bad for him because whoever comes after me will assume the lock is a part of the apartment, only to find there is no lock when they move in.. just the crappy thing that is there now. but like i said, if he is going to nickel and dime me, i'm going to do the same.
even our mailboxes are falling apart and the renters and postal people complain about it and he doesnt want to fix them.
oh, and legally he has to install a chain. so i am going to make him do that. either way he is pony-ing up some bucks for this... it just seems like the easier way would be to pay for the freaking lock, which won't be all that much more expensive anyway. but whatever.
thoughts?
Comments
-
This topic really interests me b/c i am in similar situation. I have only one lock built into the main doorknob ensemble. Some other people in my building have deadbolts. I assumed the other tenants installed the locks themselves which explains why they are not on every apartment. I don't have a chain either. Do LL have to legally provide one?
Anyone know how much it costs to have someone install a deadbolt.
If you do install one, I would be a little careful about de-installing the lock when you're ready to move. Take a photo before and after. If the door looks marred when you move you'll give the LL a "valid" reason to take $ out of your security deposit. Plus, the LL will need a key for your new deadbolt in case they have to get in for emergency leaks, etc. This is what my LL told me anyway. -
http://www.tenant.net
great info/resource/legal advice
without getting into what the landlord is required to do,
if I were you I'd put in the lock
and if it makes you feel better, take it with you when you leave.
$100 worth of deadbolt is just not worth the irritation this is obviously causing you, if you have the $100 that is
I changed a lock in the past year -- it was a good one but since we did self-installation, the whole thing was under $100. Maybe it's $200 if you get a locksmith, I don't know. -
Thanks Pitu.
I am definitely going to do it. But I just want to make sure I can legally take it with me again.
and sarajean, yes, legally you are supposed to have a chain on the door, paid for by the landlord. so at least that part should be easy. -
sarajean is smart to suggest documentation, in the unlikely event you get into a deposit/damage squabble
http://www.tenant.net/phpBB2/
is the link to their boards, a total wealth of searchable info
your lease probably requires the LL have a key, for emergencies and because it's his/her/megacorporation's property.
It's just foolish to live in NYC without a quality deadbolt, and real locks on your windows. I think a peephole (or whatever you call those little round fisheye lens thingees so you can look into the hall) is required by law as well. I'd rather look through that than open the door with a chain up. Depending on how responsive or inept the management is, they could do that for you along with the chain. -
I think that's pretty routine; I've encountered it several times before myself. I don't think they're required to put a second lock on the door, although I can't claim any knowledge of the actual law on this point. It's actually more secure for you to put in your own lock, so you should go ahead and do it. Plus, then you can choose which kind (get a high security lock like a Medeco or Mul-T-Lock). If you leave it to the landlord, they'll probably put in some easily-pickable 5 or 6-pin standard tumbler lock.
Incidentally, even the Mul-T-Lock may be vulnerable to certain kinds of attack. See the discussion here:
http://www.crypto.com/photos/misc/mul-t-lock/ -
I would suggest the same as everyone else especially the before and after pictures and keep a copy of your deadbolt receipt proving that you purchased it and not the landlord. Keep the exact plate that you remove to install the bolt and put it back on when you leave. I think the rule with renting is it must be in the same condition it was when you moved in. I definitely think you have to provide the landlord and/or super with a copy of the key.
-
I will definitely take pictures before and after, save receipts and give a copy of the key to the super. And yes, I'll use the same metal plates I take off this thing. I just don't want him coming back later and claiming I can't take the lock back if I am the one who paid for it to begin with. I could totally see that happening.
-
If I was you I'd just pay for the locks that you want. It's worth the money for your safety and piece of mind. I had a similar problem once with a former landlord. The lock on my front door at that time was honestly the exact same as the average bathroom lock!!!!! I asked him for a replacement and he put in some equally shoddy piece of bullshit. So I took matters in my own hands and spent about $200 on decent locks.
-
i would say pay for the deadbolt lock your self and when you leave take it with you. but return the door to its original condition when you leave. " replace that metall plate you were talking about" also dont forget to give a key from the new lock to your super just in case something happens in your apartment and he needs to get in there, like for a broken pipe or something.
-
again, thats totally my plan. i just want to make sure that legally i can take the lock with me.
it will be documented up the wazoo. i will pay for it. keys will be provided to the right people. but legally can i take it with me if i return the door to its original condition? think about it. the person who rents it after me will probably assume the lock will stay. they wont think twice about it. so while it is an add-in for me, its not going to be viewed that way by the next tenant if and when i leave. am i truly entitled to take it when i leave? -
jayce wrote: again, thats totally my plan. i just want to make sure that legally i can take the lock with me.
Yes it is your right to take it. If you decide to move remind your landlord that you purchased the lock and will take it with you. It is his duty to inform the new tenant that it will be without the lock.
it will be documented up the wazoo. i will pay for it. keys will be provided to the right people. but legally can i take it with me if i return the door to its original condition? think about it. the person who rents it after me will probably assume the lock will stay. they wont think twice about it. so while it is an add-in for me, its not going to be viewed that way by the next tenant if and when i leave. am i truly entitled to take it when i leave? -
stacey wrote: Yes it is your right to take it. If you decide to move remind your landlord that you purchased the lock and will take it with you. It is his duty to inform the new tenant that it will be without the lock.
thank you, Stacey. -
why wouldnt you be able to take your own property when you move? What law do you think you'd be breaking?
-
are you planning on leaving soon? I mean, generally I dont' bother to take my lock with me when I leave a tenancy. I'm not that desperate. Think about it - is it really worth the hassle just for $100 max?? Or is it a matter of principle with you?
-
jayce wrote: again, thats totally my plan. i just want to make sure that legally i can take the lock with me.
i'm not sure you can. it certainly seems fair if you paid for it, but check your lease. many say that if you add anything to the structure of the apartment--something like that; can't recall the exact words--it becomes the property of the building. anyway, see what your lease says in that. -
mypasswordwontwork wrote: are you planning on leaving soon? I mean, generally I dont' bother to take my lock with me when I leave a tenancy. I'm not that desperate. Think about it - is it really worth the hassle just for $100 max?? Or is it a matter of principle with you?
totally principal.
landlord won't give me squat. i have to haggle for a chain on the door. no way i will give him even so much as a deadbolt. so yes, in that regard, it is worth every ounce of the hassle. you ever get a sense that the building you are in is only as good as the tenants who love and care about their homes inspite of the landlord? then that is my building. he gets more money out of the people who live here caring about their homes. and that just sucks, because he won't put out a nickel. its frustrating. i dont ask for much. and it would cost him so little to put a lock on the door. so because he gives me the line of "legally I don't have to," I intend to play the same hand back. Call me mean, call me spiteful. But his complete lack of regard for his tenants is just glaring. -
Smokin' Joe wrote:
thats what i am worried about. i need to look and see if it includes that. but if it does, is that even legal? i mean, if i pay for it, its mine. if the management company labels it an "Add-on" its mine to remove. right? the logic is sound, but so help me god if he winds up having some legal precedent to keep what he refused to pay for when he had a chance. he is just that kinda guy.
i'm not sure you can. it certainly seems fair if you paid for it, but check your lease. many say that if you add anything to the structure of the apartment--something like that; can't recall the exact words--it becomes the property of the building. anyway, see what your lease says in that. -
Jayce, I do not think you are mean or spiteful. It just seems like a lot of hassle for you and no gain. I mean, if your landlord is as bad as you say - he'll get his comeuppance one way or the other without you having to stress over ripping out your deadbolt when you leave. If it's no biggie for you, fine - do it. But otherwise just take a deep breath, do what you need to do to protect yourself and forget about taking revenge on your nasty landlord.
-
Adding a second lock, if you didn't drill the holes, will definitely not be considered a change in the structure of the apartment. If you alter the door/frame to add a lock that is a more interesting question. I think it is clear, however, that a prior tenant added a lock and took it on departure.
-
jayce wrote: [quote=Smokin' Joe]
thats what i am worried about. i need to look and see if it includes that. but if it does, is that even legal? i mean, if i pay for it, its mine. if the management company labels it an "Add-on" its mine to remove. right? the logic is sound, but so help me god if he winds up having some legal precedent to keep what he refused to pay for when he had a chance. he is just that kinda guy.
i'm not sure you can. it certainly seems fair if you paid for it, but check your lease. many say that if you add anything to the structure of the apartment--something like that; can't recall the exact words--it becomes the property of the building. anyway, see what your lease says in that.
definitely check your lease and also search tenant.net for "add-on improvements". my vague recollection from property law (bear in mind it was in texas and that I never practiced property law and that none of this constitutes legal advice, k?) that add-ons are yours to remove and keep. however, that terminology is generally used in commercial contracts, not residential contracts. this is why, for instance, when a business (say a restaurant) closes, the owner of the restaurant (the tenant) will have a sale selling ALL of the fixtures, etc. - commercial properties are leased as a bare four walls.
I do know that in rent stabilized leases any add-on improvement is yours to keep - I added a mul-t-lock to my old rent stabilized studio several years ago and ended up taking it with me.
also, I wouldn't give a copy of the key to your super. why lose control over that lock? -
also, I wouldn't give a copy of the key to your super. why lose control over that lock?
He probably doesn't have a choice. The landlord is entitled to reasonable access to the apartment. A tenant can't change the locks and exclude the landlord. -
Yeah but Jayce could *not* give him a key to the new lock then just claim that she genuinely and innocently forgot to give him the key (should he ever confront her about it). I did that once. The landlord never did know that he didn't have the correct key to my apartment.
-
mypasswordwontwork wrote: Yeah but Jayce could *not* give him a key to the new lock then just claim that she genuinely and innocently forgot to give him the key (should he ever confront her about it). I did that once. The landlord never did know that he didn't have the correct key to my apartment.
I agree. when I changed the lock on my apt several years ago, I didn't give anyone a copy of the key in the building. partly because it was a 6 building complex and I did not want the one key separating me from approx 100 workers floating around. no one ever knew about it, so it didn't ever matter.
personally, I think those of you without JDs need to learn to plead ignorance more often.
it's the one thing those of us with them aren't allowed to do. though we do it anyway. -
alafairnadia wrote:
darlin, you rock. thank you.
I do know that in rent stabilized leases any add-on improvement is yours to keep - I added a mul-t-lock to my old rent stabilized studio several years ago and ended up taking it with me.
also, I wouldn't give a copy of the key to your super. why lose control over that lock?
it actually is a rent stabilized lease, but just to make sure, I will check.
and i may not give a key. i'll play it out and see if anyone notices. i know that part is in my lease that the LL or super needs to have a key, but I think I will play along and see if someone actually proactively asks me for it. And if they do, I might ask them to pay for the dupe themselves. hahaha. -
Hmm. That's an interesting issue. I had problems with one of my locks when I moved in. The key suddenly stopped working, I had to call a locksmith to replace the lock and he said it looked as though someone had "tampered with it". So I replaced the lock and never gave a copy of the new key to my LL or Super. But now I'm worried that a pipe will burst, or something will catch fire or explode while I'm sitting at my desk, picking my nose in Manhattan and no one will be able to get into my apartment. What to do, what to do?
-
Cupcake wrote: Hmm. That's an interesting issue. I had problems with one of my locks when I moved in. The key suddenly stopped working, I had to call a locksmith to replace the lock and he said it looked as though someone had "tampered with it". So I replaced the lock and never gave a copy of the new key to my LL or Super. But now I'm worried that a pipe will burst, or something will catch fire or explode while I'm sitting at my desk, picking my nose in Manhattan and no one will be able to get into my apartment. What to do, what to do?
fire department will smash your lock - they won't care if there's a key available or not. seriously. if there's a fire in a building and they have to get into all apartments, they'll smash all the doors in. it's their job.
pipe burst? make sure your super and LL have your work and cell #s. -
before you go spending a lot of cash on a mul-T lock, etc. check the overall condition of your door. Is it solid, are the hinges inside or outside, does the door close securely?
When you consider a lock, make sure you have the strikeplate screwed in at least 3" into the frame. This is so it grips the stronger lumber framing your wall. Make sure the throw bolt is at least an inch long, too.
You can also replace the screws in your hinges to 3 1/2 inch screws to make the door less vulnerable to being kicked in.
Also, intruders aren't likely to pick your lock. They are going to either kick your door in, crow bar your door open or take a drill to your lock. Whatever they can do within the shortest amount of time.
If you're concerned about being robbed, take a look at all areas of entry to your apartment and secure them. Make your apartment look like it would take too much time to break into so that robbers will pass yours buy. You can put additional locks on your windows with just a drill and a few bucks. A "real" alarm sticker from ADT or another major provider (not one from home depot) can also make the burglers question whether to choose to rob your place. You can get legit stickers to put on your door or window on ebay.
There's a bunch of stuff online on home safety to check out as well. -
Man, I wish Tenant.net weren't so godawfully disorganized and hard to search for information.
Related question to the topic: Do any of you know whether, if your building has two external doors, landlords are required to have locks on both? My building has two outer entry doors with a small vestibule in between, and there's no lock on the outer one. I'm about to start bugging them to finally install an outer lock after the elevator incident I posted about last week on the CH board, and it would be good to know whether it's something they're supposed to have in place already. -
doublediamond wrote: before you go spending a lot of cash on a mul-T lock, etc. check the overall condition of your door. Is it solid, are the hinges inside or outside, does the door close securely?
Thanks for this post. I have a couple of questions. How can you put some thief off crow-barring your door? Is there anything you can do to help prevent that? And also, even if you put locks on your windows, couldn't a thief just smash your window to get in?
When you consider a lock, make sure you have the strikeplate screwed in at least 3" into the frame. This is so it grips the stronger lumber framing your wall. Make sure the throw bolt is at least an inch long, too.
You can also replace the screws in your hinges to 3 1/2 inch screws to make the door less vulnerable to being kicked in.
Also, intruders aren't likely to pick your lock. They are going to either kick your door in, crow bar your door open or take a drill to your lock. Whatever they can do within the shortest amount of time.
If you're concerned about being robbed, take a look at all areas of entry to your apartment and secure them. Make your apartment look like it would take too much time to break into so that robbers will pass yours buy. You can put additional locks on your windows with just a drill and a few bucks. A "real" alarm sticker from ADT or another major provider (not one from home depot) can also make the burglers question whether to choose to rob your place. You can get legit stickers to put on your door or window on ebay.
There's a bunch of stuff online on home safety to check out as well. -
mypasswordwontwork wrote: How can you put some thief off crow-barring your door? Is there anything you can do to help prevent that? And also, even if you put locks on your windows, couldn't a thief just smash your window to get in?
From my understanding, breaking and entering is a crime of opportunity (cops, pipe in if I'm mistaken). If your place looks abandoned, if it looks like you're on vacation, if your hours are easily determined, if your entryways are dark, if your doors and windows are concealed from the street and from neighbors, if your doors and (accessible) windows have no extra protection, any one of these things make for a good opportunity.
Crow barring a door makes some noise, especially in an apartment building. A criminal may do this if the door has little visibility (it's the back door, or the door is concealed by trees or a darkened entryway), so you add motion lights, you strengthen the door, you do what you can so that it will take the criminal time to break in.
For your windows, again it's about making the criminal spend his/her time to get in. If you get pin locks for your windows, or those locks that require you to push a nub out to open the window, it's just more time spent to get into your place and a higher chance that they'll be seen.
The longer it will take for a criminal to get into your place and the higher the chance he/she will be seen, the less likely your place will be targeted.
Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
- 40K All Categories
- 27.1K Neighborhoods
- 5.1K Crown Heights/Prospect Lefferts Gardens
- 7.1K Prospect Heights
- 2.3K Fort Greene, Clinton Hill, Bed-Stuy
- 8K Park Slope
- 549 Williamsburg, Greenpoint, Bushwick
- 442 Flatbush/Midwood/Ditmas Park
- 657 BoCoCa (Boerum Hill, Cobble Hill, Carroll Gardens)
- 151 Red Hook
- 104 Gowanus
- 304 Bay Ridge/Bensonhurst
- 130 Coney Island, Brighton Beach, Sheepshead Bay
- 270 Brooklyn Heights, DUMBO and Downtown
- 598 Windsor Terrace / Kensington
- 673 Greenwood Heights and Sunset Park
- 749 Brooklyn and Beyond
- 6.3K Stuff
- 86 Brooklyn Back When
- 1.2K Brooklyn Pets
- 257 Brooklyn Kids
- 241 Brooklyn Eats
- 51 Brooklyn Booze
- 3.6K The Lounge / Random Stuff
- 611 Brooklyn Politics
- 122 Brooklyn Sports and Fitness
- 111 Brooklyn Photos
- 339 Site Issues
- 8 Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
- 6.2K Listings
- 1.1K APARTMENTS and REAL ESTATE
- 1.3K Sales Openings Events
- 2.3K The Classifieds