Bombing Somalia
Comments
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wait, what? we're bombing somalia?? I thought we were going to pretend like we hadn't fucked that up?? jeez louise! I thought the administration watched black hawk down (though totally doctored from the real story, still utterly horrifying)
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http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/09/world/africa/09somalia.html?ref=world
I think we were thinking that since things had been going so badly in Iraq we were due for a change of luck. :-s
Speaking more seriously about Darfur, how exactly are we supposed to help the situation there? Just through some kind of public awareness campaign? It seems like our options are, unfortunately, nill or zip. Please prove me wrong, as it is indeed a horrific situation. -
Weird, I was just reading Monday times and there was this op-ed piece basically saying that we shouldn't be doing what we are doing in somalia now:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/08/opinion/08stevenson.html
January 8, 2007
Op-Ed Contributor
A Fleeting Victory in Somalia
By JONATHAN STEVENSON
Newport, R.I.
SOMALIA’S internationally recognized government pulled off a stunning military victory over its Islamist rivals, taking control of the capital, Mogadishu, and the key port city of Kismayo last week. This may appear to bode well for the containment of Islamism on the Horn of Africa. But unless America plays a constructive role in Somalia’s next stage, the conflict could become a regional war and a new field of jihad.
The success of the Transitional Federal Government and its current prevalence were made possible entirely through the help of troops from neighboring Ethiopia, many of them trained and equipped by the United States. Nevertheless, Ethiopia cannot be expected to act as the government’s main force indefinitely. Nor, eventually, will Somalis, who are almost all Sunni Muslims, tolerate an open-ended occupation by Ethiopians, who are predominantly Christians.
Enforcing peace in a politically atomized territory is remarkably difficult, as was painfully demonstrated by the American intervention in Somalia in the early 1990s. Turning a humanitarian mission into a coercive state-building effort angered local militia bosses, leading to the now-infamous “Black Hawk Down†attack.
The Ethiopians, being thoroughly familiar with the American experience and the Somalis’ historical tendency to resist external influence, are already talking about pulling out within a few months.
What’s more, the American invasion of Iraq illuminates some drawbacks to any extended Ethiopian military presence in Somalia. Al Qaeda’s leadership would inevitably cast such a commitment as the non-Muslim occupation of a Muslim land. This would draw foreign jihadists into the conflict and lead to greater Islamic radicalization of Somalis themselves.
Indeed, Ethiopia’s intervention and the United Nations Security Council’s authorization of a notional peacekeeping force have already prompted the Islamic Courts Council to declare jihad. Once bitten, twice shy, the United States should be loath to perpetuate this kind of blowback. Similar considerations also argue against a peacekeeping force led by a major power — even if one could be marshaled, which at present looks unlikely.
The upshot is that there is no military solution to the quandary of Somalia. Robust diplomacy, with an eye toward creating some sort of power-sharing agreement between the transitional government and the Islamic Courts Council, appears to be the only hope. Given the recent struggles in Darfur, Congo and elsewhere, the idea of bringing Africans to the negotiating table might cause Westerners to roll their eyes. But there are a few hopeful signs that, in Somalia, diplomacy has a chance.
For one thing, the European Union has shown an interest in becoming an honest broker among the main Somali factions. And Kenya, alarmed by the prospect of tens of thousands of Somali refugees pouring across its northern border, may feel compelled to resume its longstanding diplomatic role in Somali conflict resolution.
Finally, neither the transitional government nor the Islamic courts are in a position to take over wholesale governance of the country: the various clan leaders, tribal elders and militia bosses around Somalia together control the pulse of power. In fact, it was the decision by dozens of local clan elders to withdraw their political and military backing that made it impossible for the Islamic Courts Council to defend Mogadishu and Kismayo.
This parlay underscored how central the elders are to Somalia’s tenuous political equilibrium, especially those of the four main clans — the Darod, Hawiye, Dir and Digil-Mirifle — and their various sub-clans. These leaders must be included in any peace negotiation, and any deal with their backing would be hard for the Islamists or the transitional government to walk away from.
The knottiest substantive issue would likely be deciding to what extent Islamic sharia law would apply in Somalia. Naturally, the Islamic courts have insisted on universal religious law, while the secular transitional government has refused to entertain it. But there is recent African precedent for breaking the deadlock.
In January 2005, persistent negotiations overseen by the United States, European powers and Kenya produced a power-sharing compromise between southern Sudanese Christians and Sudan’s Arab Muslim government. The deal was that sharia would apply in the northern part of the country and not in the south, and that its applicability in the capital, Khartoum, was to be decided by an elected assembly. While the unrelated violence in Sudan’s Darfur region has overshadowed this deal, it was a major breakthrough between two groups far more religiously divided than the two Muslim Somali sides.
The temptation in Washington will be to keep its distance and rely on Ethiopia, the European Union and Kenya for as long as possible. This attitude is myopic. Neither the American public nor the world believe that the Bush administration’s predominantly military approach to counterterrorism is working. Relying primarily on Ethiopian troops to tamp down Somali Islamism would represent a continuation of that flawed model, and of the corresponding risk of fueling the jihad.
The United States’ full participation in a diplomatic process in the Horn of Africa, on the other hand, would constitute a relatively low-cost way of signaling a new American approach to Islam and a re-engagement in sub-Saharan Africa, which has largely been left out of Washington’s post-9/11 calculus. A result could be a small political victory in the Muslim world that would deprive Osama bin Laden and his followers of a new grievance rather than supplying them with one. -
it's probably a signal of the new american policy towards al qaeda
we're gonna bomb 'em back into the stone age
minus one day -
fug
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escap wrote: Speaking more seriously about Darfur, how exactly are we supposed to help the situation there? Just through some kind of public awareness campaign? It seems like our options are, unfortunately, nill or zip. Please prove me wrong, as it is indeed a horrific situation.
You mean "we" as in me and you, or "we" as in the U.S.? -
I meant the U.S. But either one, now that you mention it.
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quijibo wrote: it's probably a signal of the new american policy towards al qaeda
To be precise: we're going to bomb Somalia forward into the stone age.
we're gonna bomb 'em back into the stone age
minus one day -
It's all good news out of Somalia as far as I'm concerned. Hardcore Islamists on the ropes if not through them, UN backed government resurgent. How anyone can be upset about that is beyond me. The whole where-do-we-go-from-here question is an important one, but it's a question that couldn't even be asked a couple months ago. In other words, I think diplomatic process is going to be very useful at this stage, but it would have been ineffective as a tool for talking the Islamists out of power.
Speaking of which, what to do about Darfur? The diplomatic process has thus far been a failure in this matter. 1706 was a step in the right direction, at least until Sudan said "No." which was all it took to make the UN back off. So we're at a point where people are being killed every day, and barring some unforseen development, it appears that an invasion will be necessary to put a halt to it. The question is: Who's going to take that on? Were it miltarily possible - and at the moment I think that this is academic - would you be in favor of a U.S. invasion of Sudan? Our best hope is that Sudan is bluffing because their military can't be taken lightly; they would be beaten, but blood would be shed.
You know, it would be nice to see the UN step up here, but since they can't even bring themselves to call the situation what it is, my hopes aren't high. And the clock is ticking. -
Drano, didn't you get the memo? Because Bush is our president, everything that happens is bad. Don't worry, people will become instantly happy about the turn of events in Somalia once we get a Democratic president (see the have vs. have nots thread).
As for Darfur, the only country with any influence over what happens is China. And it is giving the Sudan the green light, unfortunately. To a small extent, some of Sudan's Arab neighbors could possibly influence it, but they don't give a rat's ass and are far too busy worrying about Israel, Iraq and Iran. Besides, we are blissfully unaware that the situation in the Sudan has not always been the simple, one-sided slaughter that it now seems to be; it's a decades-long war between the govt and rebel forces, both of which have committed unspeakable atrocities and engendered the kind of hatred we now see. I speculate that the Arabs of the region have not forgotten this, and may be looking at the current genocide as the rebels' just desserts. Similar, for example, to how many of the Balkans area Slavic and Greek Orthodox nations sided with the Serbs and essentially believed the Albanians and Bosnians "had it coming". -
Drano wrote: 1706 was a step in the right direction, at least until Sudan said "No."
I'm not sure I agree -- that was the year of the coup in Ethiopia that brought Tekle Haymanot I "the cursed" to the imperial throne, leading to the corruption and decline that characterized the region until relatively modern times. -
escap wrote: Besides, we are blissfully unaware that the situation in the Sudan has not always been the simple, one-sided slaughter that it now seems to be; it's a decades-long war between the govt and rebel forces, both of which have committed unspeakable atrocities and engendered the kind of hatred we now see.
You're right of course; but at this point the government has given up any pretense of achieving a military victory and is pretty much just wiping out non-combatants. Unfortunately, that can be effective. -
Drano wrote: It's all good news out of Somalia as far as I'm concerned. Hardcore Islamists on the ropes if not through them, UN backed government resurgent. How anyone can be upset about that is beyond me.
What makes the Somalia situation so complex and difficult is that the old warlord leaders, many of whom have benefitted from the routing of the Courts Movement, are horribly corrupt and murderous. The Somali people know this and while a majority might not desire the harshness of Sharia Law, they may indeed prefer that social stability to the pain and suffering inflicted by decades of dictatorship and war.
The moral and social corruption of the warlords and "elected leaders" is something U.S. totally fails to understand or recognize. Because of this, we are more likely to back the wrong side and make horrible mistakes that make sense on paper but end up hurting our long-term interests.
The U.S. needs to take a more realistic approach to Somalia and understand that all sides are flawed and all sides have something positive to offer. As in Iraq, Somalis want peace and they will support whoever will give it to them. This is similar to the concept of why the Taliban gained so much traction in Afghanistan: Some people of the world value peace and justice over the Western concepts of Freedom and Democracy.
It is a failure to grasp this that dooms the Bush administration from one international debacle to another. Somalia is not a black and white situation. It is most certainly not a case of good (elected gov.) vs bad (Islamists). Anyone looking to get involved in Somalia needs to understand this. -
Boygabriel, I agree with a lot of what you say, but the Islamists weren't going to come to the table without a humiliation - there simply wasn't any need to bother. Of course they may not do it now, but I think the chances are greater. And call me a bad guy, but I'll never be sorry to see a bid to establish a Taliban-style regime foiled.
Some people of the world value peace and justice...
Unfortunately, most of those people end up being duped. Hey look - I'm not such a wild-eyed Freedom and Democracy idealist that I won't acknowledge that some societies can and do benefit from an authoritarian government, but there is of course a matter of degree as well as what the motivations and ends of said governments are. <=== EDIT: Poorly written sentence that I'm too lazy to clean up. Sry.I'm not sure I agree -- that was the year of the coup in Ethiopia that brought Tekle Haymanot I "the cursed" to the imperial throne, leading to the corruption and decline that characterized the region until relatively modern times.
Nice one. -
on a almost related note, I'm a pacifist, but i think this generation needs a good "war" and a draft. the us population is growing too big. this way it will thin out the herd a bit. using way too much resources per cap.
/puts on flame suit. -
It would take a damn big war to significantly thin out the US population. If thinning out the population is what you're after, I'd think that disease would be a better bet...
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problem with disease is it effects people randomly. but with war on the other hand. the low strata goes first.
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WhyFi wrote: It would take a damn big war to significantly thin out the US population. If thinning out the population is what you're after, I'd think that disease would be a better bet...
Or zombies. -
zombies would be a great thing!!!
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well. you'd probably wanna get rid of those elderly who are receiving social security checks first.
so you'd put them at the front lines ... -
escap wrote: Drano, didn't you get the memo? Because Bush is our president, everything that happens is bad. Don't worry, people will become instantly happy about the turn of events in Somalia once we get a Democratic president (see the have vs. have nots thread).
Bush is incompetent. An out and out failure. What I would give to have Richard Nixon or Bill Clinton back in control. If we do get a Dem in office I hope that he/she has backbone to go along with the brains. -
Idlewild wrote: Bush is incompetent. An out and out failure.
Oh, I agree! I just don't think that hatred of Bush should color our take on every other issue, to the point where we root for Bush's enemies no matter how despicable they themselves might be, or take a pessimistic outlook on every aspect of our society and economy simply because he's in office. This is not to defend him, but I think the anti-Bush left has been driven to hysterics and sometimes needs to get a grip. -
quijibo wrote: well. you'd probably wanna get rid of those elderly who are receiving social security checks first.
you are right!
so you'd put them at the front lines ...
old folks cannons would be great! -
escap wrote: [quote=Idlewild]Bush is incompetent. An out and out failure.
Oh, I agree! I just don't think that hatred of Bush should color our take on every other issue, to the point where we root for Bush's enemies no matter how despicable they themselves might be, or take a pessimistic outlook on every aspect of our society and economy simply because he's in office. This is not to defend him, but I think the anti-Bush left has been driven to hysterics and sometimes needs to get a grip.
How can anyone not have a pessimistic outlook on the present and future? The president, any president of any country steers his country on a course that not only affects future domestic policy but international as well. anyone who has taken over a business or runs a business that is in trouble knows how hard it is to get it back on track.
As far as rooting for Bush's enemies, if you're speaking about Al-Qaeda and North Korea, etc, the whole country (including myself) and other countries, including enemies like Cuba and Libya were behind Bush specifically 100%. He took a golden opportunity to nail Bin-Laden and his crew in a coffin, get the respect of North Korea, Iraq and Iran and blew it by rebuffing help and invading Iraq. Un-fucking believable. However, I will say this, the UN is absolutely no innocent in the Iraq debacle. I was for John Bolton. The UN is one of the most incompetent organizations I have ever seen. All that military hardware at their disposal and they prefer sanctions which are laughed at by the imposed on country. If they were worth their salt they would have thought out a strategy of either putting Saddam in his place or deposing of him after he tried to assassinate Bush#1 in Kuwait. They would protect civilians in Darfur with force and bring North Korea and Iran to it's knees by blockade, with or without China's and Russia's blessings.
As for the Left, their are plenty of Republicans/Conservatives who are disgusted with Bush as well. Barry Goldwater's ghost being one of them. -
Idlewild, I agree with you on all points. I have heard some people get so riled up in their anti-Bush fervor that they do in fact seem to be supporting North Korea/Al Qaeda etc. (as an example a student organization on my campus held a protest, saying, "Defend North Korea's right to nuclear weapons and to protect itself against U.S. imperalism!). But I'm with you as far as all the points you make above.
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Wow, this is a nice thread going here. The China position in Sudan that someone mentioned above is of great importance, as China is now in dire need of oil sources for its billions of people. They back the Islamists to protect the North from various clans in the South, although they were driven from the land with the aid of the U.S. (and their big oil co's) looking the other way years ago.
I agree with the original op-ed of the times. If another serious fatwah is called upon the U.S. in the region than a situation will be created with thousands more radicals comign into Somalia. That is what I think is most frightening and threatening about the situation.
What to do?
I don't know. Maybe there simply is no "good" decision as escap stated above. Yet, by how thin our govt. is stretched, I'm now sure why we are dropping bombs in a region that we can't do much to protect/aid if the fighting get any more out of hand. If Ethiopia (Window-dressed U.S. forces) stay for too long then that will draw resentment from all Somalians because of their Christian background and the fact they are an occupying nation with bad blood between countries.
The humiliation fctor was already kinda set by how quickly the Islamist militia retreated after some really strong rhetoric saying they would fight til the end, etc. They were completely embarrassed and overpowered in a NY minute by the Ethiopean and Somalian (limited as they may be) forces. -
escap wrote: Idlewild, I agree with you on all points. I have heard some people get so riled up in their anti-Bush fervor that they do in fact seem to be supporting North Korea/Al Qaeda etc. (as an example a student organization on my campus held a protest, saying, "Defend North Korea's right to nuclear weapons and to protect itself against U.S. imperalism!). But I'm with you as far as all the points you make above.
I say buy them a one way ticket to Pyongyang and the Pashtuns. Let them have their Holiday in Cambodia. -
LeeHo wrote: Wow, this is a nice thread going here. The China position in Sudan that someone mentioned above is of great importance, as China is now in dire need of oil sources for its billions of people. They back the Islamists to protect the North from various clans in the South, although they were driven from the land with the aid of the U.S. (and their big oil co's) looking the other way years ago.
The US has had fatwas issued against us since the Shah had surgery in NYC and more so when the Marines were bombed in '82. One more isn't going to hurt. As far as Ethiopia is concerned, they are entrenched in Christianity. In fact they are an anchor, in a way, of Judeo-Christian heritage. They see Muslim encroachment on their land as Muslims see American encroachment in Saudi Arabia. Very bad for business. I.E. the world is experiencing another Crusades.
I agree with the original op-ed of the times. If another serious fatwah is called upon the U.S. in the region than a situation will be created with thousands more radicals comign into Somalia. That is what I think is most frightening and threatening about the situation.
What to do?
I don't know. Maybe there simply is no "good" decision as escap stated above. Yet, by how thin our govt. is stretched, I'm now sure why we are dropping bombs in a region that we can't do much to protect/aid if the fighting get any more out of hand. If Ethiopia (Window-dressed U.S. forces) stay for too long then that will draw resentment from all Somalians because of their Christian background and the fact they are an occupying nation with bad blood between countries.
The humiliation fctor was already kinda set by how quickly the Islamist militia retreated after some really strong rhetoric saying they would fight til the end, etc. They were completely embarrassed and overpowered in a NY minute by the Ethiopean and Somalian (limited as they may be) forces. -
I'm wondering how come there isn't any Christians signing up to goto fight in Somalia like Muslims are in Iraq and other places.
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armchair_warrior wrote: I'm wondering how come there isn't any Christians signing up to goto fight in Somalia like Muslims are in Iraq and other places.
Ethiopia. missionaries, US Armed Forces. Euro support........
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