Animal kind--too many tests?
I have read all the other postings about vets in the slope and I had an appointment to bring my somewhat old cat to Hope but, he took a turn for the worse and I had to bring him to Animal Kind (it was open). To me, it seems the cat is dying. His core temperture is dropping and he has severe diabetes and now all of his organs are slowly failing. For some reason I am not really getting the option to put the cat to sleep from the vet (the cat is 14). There are more tests being done and some "heroic" actions. My last cat (who was 18) got very sick suddenly and I appreciated the doctor at the Animal Medical Center being frank that she was probably not going to make it and the kindest thing was to put her out of her misery. I never have been to Animal Kind before and I don't want them to prolong his life if he is dying with useless tests. What have people's experiences been with a very sick pet there? Thanks
Comments
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brought a cat there about a year ago, ended up costing us almost $2000, and in the end they really hadn't done anything but tests, and hook her up to an IV over night to put fluids back in her.
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some of their vets are very good and very nice
but they wanted to give my dog an MRI once
which may or may not have given us any information the problem
but would *not* have changed our treatment options
we declined, kept our $400, and started seeing Dr Morris at Animal Healing Arts in Carroll Gardens
you probably know what's best for your cat at this stage
good luck
also, there's a pets forum on this site (although maybe that's where you read about Hope)
http://brooklynian.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6005 -
I had a similar situation with my cat, who was very old and suffering from kidney disease. It seems that for whatever reason, vets do not suggest that it is time to put the cat down, but will continue to offer tests and treatments for as long as the pet's owner is willing to go on. I will non-cynically assume that it's because their orientation is treatment and prolonging life, rather than ending life.
With my cat, I really really wanted the vet to tell me that it was time to let the cat go, and I finally realized that that was not going to happen and I would have to make the decision for myself. Like pitu said, you know your cat and what is best for him. -
My brother is a vet in Florida and I always call him for advice when I'm facing these sorts of decisions. I had one vet a few years back who wanted to do some expensive tests for a type of cancer he suspected my cat had. When I asked my brother about it, he told me that even if my cat had that cancer, there was no effective treatment for it, so knowing would be the next thing to useless. His advice (which I followed) was to take the cat home for the six months of life he expected and then be prepared to put her to sleep as soon as she seemed to be suffering.
Don't be afraid to ask your vet for ALL of your options, and don't let anyone guilt you into spending money that won't really extend your pet's life or will just cause it to suffer longer. -
I put my newly adopted kitten down only 5 days after I brought him home from the shelter.
The wonderful people at Prospect Park Animal Clinic gave me several options from putting him down to pumping him with fluids/meds and watching him overnight....but they told me realistically he had very little chance of survival and that he was in a lot of pain (which you could tell by his heartbreaking mewing).
He was my first pet and in five short days I'd grown to love the little guy, but I have no regrets about putting him down, both for his health, and my financial health. If in your gut you have doubts, don't brush them aside. Take him to another vet for a second opinion....you'd do the same for a sick human, right? -
Brooklyn Aphrodite wrote: He was my first pet and in five short days I'd grown to love the little guy, but I have no regrets about putting him down, both for his health, and my financial health. If in your gut you have doubts, don't brush them aside. Take him to another vet for a second opinion....you'd do the same for a sick human, right?
Sorry to hear that.
I am upset because he is alone over there being poked and prodded and tested when I am certain his prognosis is bad. Even the vet said he is in critical condition and might have brain damage. I don't doubt their diagnosing abilities at Animal Kind, but I am confused why they are prolonging this agony? Luckily a friend is coming to watch my kids so I can go over there and see my cat and talk to the vet in person. I was going crazy over here worrying about him being afraid and dying in unfamiliary surroundings. It is hard to make these decisions without being there in person and seeing how the cat is doing today. -
Rose wrote: I will non-cynically assume that it's because their orientation is treatment and prolonging life, rather than ending life.
Pfah. My father had this dog that put his vet's kid through college. That guy kept it alive for about 2 years too long at great expense. It was a blind, deaf, diaper-wearing vegetable for at least a year toward the end, and of course my dad was too attached to realize he wasn't doing the dog any favors. I think if I had lived close enough to sneak by the house during the the day I would have pillowed it myself.
I've known some great vets but there are definitely a few that only want to cash checks. -
I had one experience with Animal Kind and hope I never have to return. I suspect that most people use them only because of their emergency hours.
My cat was sick with what turned out just to be a kitty-cold, but they were extremely judgemental when I asked about being able to keep plans to leave town for a few days. I understand why it matters when the cat is sick, but the vet lectured me about leaving the cat alone for a long weekend anytime. Then, after the lecture and guilt-trip, it took them 2 days to fill the prescription.
Knowing that my other cat would soon have the cold too, I took him to our regular vet, Prospect Park Animal Clinic for half the cost. Dr. Silverman and the entire staff there have always been very nice, straight-forward about options, and up front about prices. They've been patient and accomodating, and always affectionate with the animals.
Give them a call, talk to one of the vets over the phone and tell them the situation. They have helped me before by telling me not to come in (it is very stressful on a cat) and by doing so, did not get paid for an office visit. -
Anonymous wrote:
Yes, I like them too. I also switched to PPAC from Animal Kind after a bad experience.
Knowing that my other cat would soon have the cold too, I took him to our regular vet, Prospect Park Animal Clinic for half the cost. Dr. Silverman and the entire staff there have always been very nice, straight-forward about options, and up front about prices. They've been patient and accomodating, and always affectionate with the animals. -
as i've said before, i love animal kind. but, there is something you need to remember: animal kind is an animal *hospital*, not a clinic or simple vet's office. i have found i get the same high quality of care there that i've gotten at the animal medical center.
i know a lot of other people on this board feel differently, and that's cool. we all need/like different things.
but i think just with your own health you need to be really proactive and ask tons of questions. my first question is *always*, is she going to die? and then, "how much is this going to cost?" and then, "are there alternatives?" -
I'm literally around the corner from AnimalKind, so it's easy for me to justify going there.
My general feeling has been that they do a lot of testing that isn't really beneficial or necessary.... like running batteries of tests for one of my cats who scratched himself bald behind one ear. I felt like one particular vet had no idea, but hoped the tests would find something. I wound up getting more helpful information from the pet store, who suggested it might just be dry skin, and adding fish oil to the cat's food. Problem solved.
However.... from annual check-ups just this week, one vet actually saved me money by confiding that since both cats are permanently indoors, they would be perfectly fine if I went a few months beyond their suggested date for booster shots -cheapest trip I ever made to AnimalKind.
Kensingtonmom - sounds like you already know the answer to your question and your cat's life will not be enhanced by spending $$$ on unecessary tests - it's a tough decision and I dread the day I have to make it.... good luck. -
FurryGreyBOy wrote: Kensingtonmom - sounds like you already know the answer to your question and your cat's life will not be enhanced by spending $$$ on unecessary tests - it's a tough decision and I dread the day I have to make it.... good luck.
Well not really. I went in to see my cat and he looked HORRIBLE. I mean worse then yesterday. Very cold to the touch. But when I asked the vet what the prognosis was it was very vague (which I understand that medicine is not an exact science) and I left not knowing what to do. He has kidney failure, liver failure, an infection and diabetes and he is 14 years old. I mean when I am not there holding the cat the answer is clear: put him out of his misery. But she thinks she might be able to turn him around (maybe) but for how long, no guarantees and if it were her cat she would admit him for a week. A WEEK! that is not an option. I won't put my cat through that. I did say again NO HEROICS. But I owed an additional bill for heroics performed last night. If he makes it then she is not sure how long he will live on insulin and fluids every day. Sigh -
That is awful; I'm so sorry. I would not admit him for a week. Reading the list of things that is wrong with him, well, what kind of quality of life is he really going to have -- no matter what Animal Kind does. Can you bring him home and try to make him comfortable, or is he suffering?
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do you have a regular vet (at hope? i'm not sure from your earlier posts if you've gone there before) whom you could call for guidance? it might be helpful to talk to someone who has a longer-term idea of his health...but probably you thought of that.
this situation sounds awful. i'm sorry it's happening. -
sweet tea wrote: do you have a regular vet (at hope? i'm not sure from your earlier posts if you've gone there before) whom you could call for guidance? it might be helpful to talk to someone who has a longer-term idea of his health...but probably you thought of that.
No I was between vets. I used to go to 5th Avenue Cat Clinic but when the brother took over, I left and never went back. So my cats hadn't been to a vet in oveer 2 years (gulp). There is another vet on tomorrow and I am going to see what she thinks and have my husband come and look at the cat too.
this situation sounds awful. i'm sorry it's happening. -
I switched from animal kind to hope. my former cat, alafair, was put down a few months ago at hope. animal kind did tons of tests and surgeries on her. I spent thousands of dollars. but they couldn't be bothered to let me know the results of biopsies or other tests. they would scare the shit out of me "your cat has horrible cancer" and then not call me to tell me that the tumors were benign. I really dislike animal kind. and I didn't have a specific vet there - they just kept giving me new vets.
now I take my cats to hope. they haven't ever lied to me or forgotten to call (in fact, they call me a lot - vets forcing me to face the fact that my cat was terminally ill via telephone - I really respect them). -
kensingtonmom wrote: [quote=FurryGreyBOy]Kensingtonmom - sounds like you already know the answer to your question and your cat's life will not be enhanced by spending $$$ on unecessary tests - it's a tough decision and I dread the day I have to make it.... good luck.
Well not really. I went in to see my cat and he looked HORRIBLE. I mean worse then yesterday. Very cold to the touch. But when I asked the vet what the prognosis was it was very vague (which I understand that medicine is not an exact science) and I left not knowing what to do. He has kidney failure, liver failure, an infection and diabetes and he is 14 years old. I mean when I am not there holding the cat the answer is clear: put him out of his misery. But she thinks she might be able to turn him around (maybe) but for how long, no guarantees and if it were her cat she would admit him for a week. A WEEK! that is not an option. I won't put my cat through that. I did say again NO HEROICS. But I owed an additional bill for heroics performed last night. If he makes it then she is not sure how long he will live on insulin and fluids every day. Sigh
I'm not a vet, but your cat has multi organ system failure and sepsis, and if it was a human, the expected mortality would be close to 100%. If it was me in that condition, I'd hope someone would be kind enough to help me end my suffering quickly. I know that in the hospital, I see lots of families thinking they're doing the right thing by insisting that we "do everything" even when "everything" means prolonging the patient's suffering and saving them for a more and more horrific death.
Kensingtonmom, you've done all anyone could have expected you to do. You should let your pet go in peace. I know it's easy to say and hard to do, but your cat would thank you for it if it could. -
Subject: Re: Animal kind--too many tests?
kensingtonmom wrote: I have read all the other postings about vets in the slope and I had an appointment to bring my somewhat old cat to Hope but, he took a turn for the worse and I had to bring him to Animal Kind (it was open). To me, it seems the cat is dying. His core temperture is dropping and he has severe diabetes and now all of his organs are slowly failing. For some reason I am not really getting the option to put the cat to sleep from the vet (the cat is 14). There are more tests being done and some "heroic" actions. My last cat (who was 18) got very sick suddenly and I appreciated the doctor at the Animal Medical Center being frank that she was probably not going to make it and the kindest thing was to put her out of her misery. I never have been to Animal Kind before and I don't want them to prolong his life if he is dying with useless tests. What have people's experiences been with a very sick pet there? Thanks
From the sounds of it, you have no faith in your cat's health and think that you'll be wasting money by investing in medical treatment on a cat who might die tomorrow. If you think you should euthanize your cat, why did you bring it for treatment anyways? If you feel that it's time for your cat's suffering to end, tell the vet at Animal Kind that you wish to have the cat euthanized. If they do not provide this service, I'm sure another local animal clinic will.
By the way, I feel bad for people in your position. This is why I HATE having pets. Watching their short life spans expire and feeling helpless SUCKS. -
My pets have received good treatment at Animal Kind, especially in the middle of the night, when no other clinic would take us. Animal Kind's bills are always so high though. I've never walked out of that place without dropping $200.00. But how can I complain though if my pets' health improved after the visits? Then again, who the hell knows if my pets' health improved because of Animal Kind's remedies or just stupid luck? The vets at Animal Kind have always been kind. Animal Kind's receptionist -- through phone and email correspondence -- came off as stupid and insentive, but I've encountered stupider and meaner receptionists in many doctors' offices.
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Thanks everyone for your supportive words.
I am going to go in today with my husband and if that cat has not made a SIGNIFICANT improvement then we will insist he is put down.
I am not bashing Animal Kind by any means, it is just not the style of vet care for me. I think with cats, less is more--they get stressed out by too much. There is a time to let a pet go and I would like a vet who could help me with that decision (without so far dropping $1,200 for a decision that was pretty clear after the initial 10 minutes in the office but that is another story) -
well the update on my cat is he looks fantastic. I am shocked. He is still in serious condition but I went in to tell them to put him down and I can't do it. The downside is they want him another week in ICU and that is $350/day. We are really in a lousy situation. I appreciate that Animal Kind saved him but on the other hand we have already put in $1800 as of today. This is insanity! So I guess what I observe is they are good vets, extremely expensive and it seems too many tests and heroics. On the other hand my old cat does look great even though this was money I need for pre-school for my kids!
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kmom, even though we've had our differences i've been thinking about your cat all day and i'm so glad he's rallying.
i'd like to take this time again to try, at least from my vantage point (i grew up in a family of veterinarians) to discuss the difference between a vet clinic and a vet hospital and why the latter is more expensive.
animal kind is likely the best animal hospital in the borough. i take my cat there and if it wasn't accessible i'd likely bring her to the animal medical center.
i am not saying that pets get lesser care at other local vets; i've heard wonderful things about many of them, esp. hope street. it's really just a matter of where you choose to bring your pet and why. animal kind happens to have facilities that other local vets do not have--like, for example, an echocardiogram machine and an emergency ER.
the fact is that pets costs a lot of $$, tests cost $$, running a full-fledged hospital costs $$. ICU is expensive, so are all medical procedures. when i'm sick, i want my doctor to run as many tests as she can to find out what's going on with me. i expect the same kind of care for my pet. but, as with my own health, i ask a ton of questions and make sure everything is explained to me until i understand it.
some people want to put all of this effort into their cat's health, others don't. i am making NO JUDGEMENT about either kind of people because we each have different priorities. but when you walk into a vet hospital you get hospital care. i think a lot of people don't understand that, and then get angry when the prices are high.
they're doctors, and doctor's in a fancy, higher end hospital are expensive. -
Pets are very expensive. I never buy a new pet unless I have at least $1000.00 available for emergency room visits.
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kensingtonmom wrote: well the update on my cat is he looks fantastic. I am shocked. He is still in serious condition but I went in to tell them to put him down and I can't do it. The downside is they want him another week in ICU and that is $350/day. We are really in a lousy situation. I appreciate that Animal Kind saved him but on the other hand we have already put in $1800 as of today. This is insanity! So I guess what I observe is they are good vets, extremely expensive and it seems too many tests and heroics. On the other hand my old cat does look great even though this was money I need for pre-school for my kids!
That's fantastic news! Your cat making such a miraculous recovery is a testament to the excellent care it is receiving. Whether the cost is worth it is a question that only you can answer, but I don't think it's fair to say that there were "too many tests" or heroics after they managed to bring the cat back from almost certain death. Incidentally, human ICU care costs about 10 times as much.
Your story has made me think more about my own cats' health. Does anyone know whether it's possible to get health insurance for cats? I don't need something to cover regular checkups or shots, just catastrophic stuff like kensingtonmom's situation.
Edited for grammar. -
Carnivore wrote: Your story has made me think more about my own cats' health. Does anyone know whether it's possible to get health insurance for cats? I don't need something to cover regular checkups or shots, just catastrophic stuff like kensingtonmom's situation.
most vets have brochures for animal insurance. I've priced it out (especially post-alafair, where I think I probably spent around $4k on her over the course of a few years of major surgeries and biopsies and finally putting her to sleep) and as far as I can tell, it's not worth it. I think it's more worth it if you have a dog - they tend to have more major surgical issues than cats. but yeah, $4k in the hole and I don't think it's worth the trouble. but price it out for yourself. -
Carnivore wrote: but I don't think it's fair to say that there were "too many tests" or heroics after they managed to bring the cat back from almost certain death. Incidentally, human ICU care costs about 10 times as much.
Maybe, maybe not. When he was admitted I went through the estimate with the vet and asked her to take off some of the tests that seemed extraneous to me (which she did). If I had done all the tests the bill would have been even higher then the close to 3k I am now into as of today. But no question my cat got excellent care there. But I will be switching Vets as soon as I get him back home.brooklynpotter wrote: kmom, even though we've had our differences i've been thinking about your cat all day and i'm so glad he's rallying.
Thanks for the positive thoughts. He is a sweet (although pretty dumb) guy.
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I have heard the insurance is not really worth it. I heard the reimbursement isn't great. But I would be curious to find out if it has improved. -
when i first had my dog as a puppy
animal kind was good for us. not cheap. but convenient.
over time we got bounced around from one vet/intern to another
and the last visit we had there, the vet wanted to do a whole bunch of tests which i didn't see a need for
and when i said no, the vet gave me a look as if i had just killed my dog
that was our last visit
many moons ago
the dog is still kicking
now we go to silverman's off the park
and it's good and convenient.
it's still not cheap but it's not outrageous either
and the requests for over testing are more than i prefer
--but no guilt trip
i gotta get that pet insurance...
part of being a vet is covering all the bases and testing -
pet insurance is only for very, very young pets and it's not all that good. unfortunately
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brooklynpotter wrote: pet insurance is only for very, very young pets and it's not all that good. unfortunately
in what way :-s my dog is 7 she's bound to come into some sort of injury as she ages
how much does it cover if she eats a rib bone and they gotta cut it out of her before it rips up her insides... -
young, i mean like 1-2
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