The Islamic bodega
In the past I have mentioned that the bodega at the corner of St Johns and Washington (the one that just got redone) stopped selling beer. They said it was a license thing. Today I noticed that their deli case is pretty much without pork - they do have bacon on the menu for breakfast, but they're also pushing the turkey bacon pretty strong.
It seems obvious that these changes are based on religious belief. I wouldn't go to an evangelical Christian run bodega that refused to sell condoms - should I be going to an Islamic bodega that forces their religious beliefs on my purchasing options?
It seems obvious that these changes are based on religious belief. I wouldn't go to an evangelical Christian run bodega that refused to sell condoms - should I be going to an Islamic bodega that forces their religious beliefs on my purchasing options?
Comments
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Not if you're looking to buy beer or pork.
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I think the answer to your question (is it a question?) is pretty obvious: If you want beer and sausage take a walk to another shop. If you want milk, soap, cereal, etc hit the bodega. If it bothers you so much that they don't feel comfortable selling beer and pork don't shop there.
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Subject: Re: The Islamic bodega
devincf wrote: In the past I have mentioned that the bodega at the corner of St Johns and Washington (the one that just got redone) stopped selling beer. They said it was a license thing. Today I noticed that their deli case is pretty much without pork - they do have bacon on the menu for breakfast, but they're also pushing the turkey bacon pretty strong.
1. if the changes are based on a strong religious belief, i'm surprised they still carry any bacon.
It seems obvious that these changes are based on religious belief. I wouldn't go to an evangelical Christian run bodega that refused to sell condoms - should I be going to an Islamic bodega that forces their religious beliefs on my purchasing options?
2. not having access to beer and bacon (unlike condoms) does not adversely impact public (or pubic) health -
It bothers me that someone is forcing their religious beliefs on my shopping options, just like in the hypothetical Christian store not selling condoms.
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forces their religious beliefs on your purchasing options? that just sounds silly and reactionary. no one is forcing you to go there. if you dont like their selection, go to the place across the street. theres only like 5 bodegas on that block.
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was there anything that announced "hey we are going Islamic" or are you assuming thats what the change is? because that seems like its a mighty big (and somewhat unfair) leap to take if there isn't anything publicly announcing it as a change.
and for the record, i would argue just about every store uses their personal beliefs to determine their offerings. otherwise i'd have a much easier time getting lesbian porn anywhere and everywhere. -
Perhaps you should enquire about the religious leanings of anyone you transact business with so you don't risk any uncomfort or passive support of their belief (i.e. cab drivers, shop owners, dry cleaners, waiters, etc.)
:twisted: -
If someone has a better reason for the lack of beer for MONTHS (and there is no cooler space that would seem to be awaiting the return of brews, btw) and the 99% disappearance of pork, I would like to hear it.
And I should have known that there would be a PC reaction to this. Again, if this was an evangelical Christian establishment, and their product selection was based on their beliefs, I think people would be more receptive to questions.
I don't have any problem with anyone's religion - except that I think all religions are pretty stupid, but hey, whatever makes you feel like there's a point to your miserable life - I just have a problem when a religion is in any way forced on me. Especially without notice - if your favorite pizzeria went kosher overnight and stopped letting you get pepperoni on your slice, you might be annoyed. -
devincf wrote:
enh, as long as they didn't post signs about hating people, i'd probably buy eggs from a place that didn't stock condoms.
And I should have known that there would be a PC reaction to this. Again, if this was an evangelical Christian establishment, and their product selection was based on their beliefs, I think people would be more receptive to questions.
but why don't you just shop elsewhere? or at least ask them about the change, if its principles are important to you? -
devincf wrote: And I should have known that there would be a PC reaction to this.
i dont understand what all the fuss is about, really. its not "pc" so much as it is that theyre free to sell whatever they want just like youre free to shop wherever you want. gimme a break... thats life.
you do seem really bent up about the "religion" thing, though. and i gotta admit, it sounds sort of weird that youre projecting it so hardcore on a bodega, of all places. maybe you just need to try another bodega and save the religious rants for a religious forum, or somewhere where people actually care about the religion of who is/isn't selling them bacon and beer. -
I just have a problem when a religion is in any way forced on me. Especially without notice - if your favorite pizzeria went kosher overnight and stopped letting you get pepperoni on your slice, you might be annoyed.
So if your neighborhood pizza place stopped letting you get pepperoni on your slice just because they felt like it, you'd be cool with that? But if they did the same thing for religious reasons, you'd expect us to get all up in arms?
This isn't a case of the only pharmacist in a 100-mile radius refusing to sell birth control. It's a bodega in a neighborhood filled with bodegas making a decision not to sell beer. Do you really not see why people would be outraged over the former case but not the latter? I'll give you a hint--it's not about religion. -
given the line out the door at Tom's on Saturdays, I'd say that plenty of people have no problem giving their money to devout Christians.
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In my neighborhood (kingshighway area near B/Q stop), Dunkin Donuts doesn't sell sandwiches with bacon or sausage. You can buy ham (I think...I've actually never tried) at the deli counter at (non)supermarkets, but no place in the area (almost, I'm sure there are exception -- like McDonalds) will make a cheeseburger. Hamburger yes, cheeseburger no.
There's one place that serves sausage on egg sandwiches in the area, and it's really sketchy. -
devincf wrote: It bothers me that someone is forcing their religious beliefs on my shopping options, just like in the hypothetical Christian store not selling condoms.
Isn't it kinda every store owner's right to carry products of their choice...? -
I'd be annoyed with a store that told me they currently aren't selling beer because of license issues if in reality it was because of religious issues.
However, if they just said they weren't selling beer because it was against their religion I would have no problem with it.
A deceitful person is not someone I want to do business with on any level but people are free to have their beliefs and to live their lives according to their beliefs. -
I could kind of go with you on this if the products they were selling were supporting one religion. Then, I think you have a perfectly valid reason for not wanting to support them ("Fifty cents of each purchase goes to the Islamic Institute for ..."). But I'm a little confused over how the fact that you can buy Pepsi but not Coke, or Louis Rich turkey bacon, but not Oscar Mayer pork bacon is somehow them trying to force their religious beliefs on you.
Perhaps they aren't stocking beer because it was a loss leader for them? Or because they didn't want to card everyone under 35 or maybe they no longer sell pork because the neighborhood has changed so much that people buy more non-pork options than pork options. Why not ask them what the deal is?
I would think if you wanted condoms you wouldn't go into the Pentacostal Grocery and House of God to buy them anyway. So why not cut our muslim brothers some slack? Purchase your items of sin for infidels only elsewhere. -
devincf wrote: I don't have any problem with anyone's religion - except that I think all religions are pretty stupid, but hey, whatever makes you feel like there's a point to your miserable life - I just have a problem when a religion is in any way forced on me.
I'm not religious either, but I think you have some mighty funny ideas about what constitutes something being "forced on you." :shock:
Somehow the logic reminds me of archconservative Christians who think that people saying "Happy Holidays" is an assault on the baby Jesus. On their side, you have people reviving a well-known holiday greeting for reasons Christians find objectionable and they freak out over the moral repercussions of this, even though there are many, much bigger moral problems in the country, such as war and the death penalty and rotten education and health care. On your side, you have people deciding not to sell non-vital commodities that are readily available elsewhere, and you seem deeply concerned about the religious implications of it, even though there are many more worrisome examples of religion in the public sphere, such as practically anything George Bush says. -
Are Jewish delis forcing their religion on you?
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Kosher delis are advertised as such. But even still, I bet you a kosher deli will sell you a pastrami sandwich and a thing of milk at the same time.
Someone told me that the bacon at this bodega is almost certainly beef bacon, and that he also read a story in the Times about a number of Muslim bodegas phasing out beer.
Whoever thinks that beer is a "loss leader" at a bodega is out of their mind, quite frankly. Bodegas essentially exist to sell beer, cigarettes and milk and bread and the stuff you pick up between trips to the supermarket.
Obviously this isn't an EARTH SHATTERING DEAL - if only it was important as that traffic light or dog shit on the sidewalk - but I do think it's an interesting subject. Obviously we make our shopping choices based on a number of issues, and for me one of them is as simple as being told the real reason why there's no beer at my once-favorite bodega. If the place had a big HALAL sign out front, I wouldn't mind - that's up front. But I believe the no beer decision is religious... and by the way, I mind the no pork thing less (I can see that they wouldn't want to handle it), but not stocking beer is silly.
As for Tom's - I believe he's Greek Orthodox, no? It's only OK to hate Catholics and Evangelicals in today's climate. -
Subject: You little whiney brat.
HOW OLD ARE YOU? 14? 16 max I'd say. It's time to grow up.devincf wrote: If someone has a better reason for the lack of beer for MONTHS (and there is no cooler space that would seem to be awaiting the return of brews, btw) and the 99% disappearance of pork, I would like to hear it.
And I should have known that there would be a PC reaction to this. Again, if this was an evangelical Christian establishment, and their product selection was based on their beliefs, I think people would be more receptive to questions.
I don't have any problem with anyone's religion - except that I think all religions are pretty stupid, but hey, whatever makes you feel like there's a point to your miserable life - I just have a problem when a religion is in any way forced on me. Especially without notice - if your favorite pizzeria went kosher overnight and stopped letting you get pepperoni on your slice, you might be annoyed. -
Good one, elitt. That Oscar Wilde-like riposte has ruined my self-esteem.
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jayce wrote: "hey we are going Islamic"
there's a fine tag line du jour . . .
If you are genuinely concerned about separation of religion and shopping, go for the big fish like Walmart (or is it Target?) pharmacies refusing to sell birth control.
But you're not, so buy your beer wherever dude. -
Wasn't this thoroughly discussed a few months ago on another thread?
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devincf wrote: Obviously we make our shopping choices based on a number of issues, and for me one of them is as simple as being told the real reason why there's no beer at my once-favorite bodega.
have you asked recently? i read that times article too, and i think part of it was about how some bodegas stopped carrying beer for licensing reasons, but didn't pursue new licenses for other reasons.
you seem to have talked to people ABOUT the "almost certainly" beef bacon, and you "believe" that the beer decision is religiously motivated, but why not ask the bodega staff yourself and find out for sure?
(oh, and on the topic of finding it easier to understand not wanting to handle pork, you might be interested to know that serving or providing or selling alcohol is considered as big a sin as drinking it yourself.) -
pitu wrote: [quote=jayce]"hey we are going Islamic"
there's a fine tag line du jour . . .
If you are genuinely concerned about separation of religion and shopping, go for the big fish like Walmart (or is it Target?) pharmacies refusing to sell birth control.
But you're not, so buy your beer wherever dude.
There's no Wal-Mart in the area, partially thanks to the anti-Wal-Mart group that I worked with a couple of years back. I don't shop at Target. I guess that means I have a history of putting my money where my mouth is, while you seem to be happy to just make assumptions about me. -
sweet tea wrote:
That's a very interesting and informative point that you make. Tragically, these people have chosen just about the worst job for themselves.
(oh, and on the topic of finding it easier to understand not wanting to handle pork, you might be interested to know that serving or providing or selling alcohol is considered as big a sin as drinking it yourself.) -
devincf wrote: while you seem to be happy to just make assumptions about me.
well aren't you also making assumptions about them? -
You've got me, Socrates!
No, I'm forming a hypothesis - ie, a "reasoned proposal suggesting a possible correlation between multiple phenomena" - about them.
Further, I am attempting to open an avenue of discussion - what elements do we use to make our decisions about where to shop, and would an extremist religious belief affect that? - which is fruitless around here, unless it's about "Where's the best place to get three inch nails" or "Who wants to get drinks at the worst bar in the five boros."
Now someone will tell me that keeping halal is not extremist. -
devincf wrote:
but the whole thing about hypotheses is that you test them -- in this case by asking.
No, I'm forming a hypothesis - ie, a "reasoned proposal suggesting a possible correlation between multiple phenomena" - about them. -
Oh, AND this is so much more of an interesting discussion than "Where can I buy knitting supplies so I can make my cats cute outfits because they're my only companions" because this is a big part of any modern changing urban landscape. What if ALL the bodegas owned by Muslims in the area - pretty much most of them, it seems to me - went full on halal? What level of tolerance would we have for other religions if those religions were making changes in our neighborhood? What if a Santeria church opened up and all of a sudden there were roosters running around everywhere? What if the next wave of gentrifiers weren't yuppies but Bible Belt types?
Obviously if every single place that sells beer locally went halal, i could always walk to the beer distributor down Washington, but I don't see why the ability to conveniently buy beer is any less important than any of the other conveniences people want to see in this neighborhood or would be sad to see leave.
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