Park Slope Food Coop
Comments
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Pitu,
I can respect your argument that the negativity of the place is what one brings with them, therefore, if there is negativity at PSFC, it is merely a reflection of its members...take the last line of your post for example:
argument: PSC is a bad place with bad people
response: its PS*F*C, not PSC!
Please. How juvenile. -
I have heard great things about the PSC, however, I choose not to make the time commitment.
I do love my bimonthly trip to Fairway. I can easily purchase food for 5-7 dinners on one trip. The rest of the dinners come from Key Food (7th Ave.), A&S, and Union Market. And then there is delivery (Song, Yamato, Maria's).
I feel spoiled with so many choices. -
I love the seafood counter at Fairway and they also have a great selection of olive oils, but most of the other stuff I can get at the Coop for a lot less (unless there happens to be a special sale going on). Plus the produce at Fairway hasn't been very good when I've gone shopping.
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Resident wrote: Many of you will disagree about the tradeoffs, but its harder to disagree that the PSC generates negativity. I mean...just read the things people write, and the justifications you come up with as to why you deal with what you deal with in order to 'be a member'.
---
I've found that when a thread starts with a negative question, the responses tend to be more negative than positive. The Coop is a great place, and not only a huge variety of food at low prices (yes, very low), but also a place to work cooperatively for one of the basics of life. -
we're not organised to survive the co-op. I owe 4 make-ups right now. My wife does child-care, which is actually a good shift, good for our kid at least. The problem is that when real life strikes, rescheduling your shift is such a pain, or cancelling on the day (can't get the squad leader on the phone) unless you have the patience of job, you're going to get into a make-up hole.
What really bothers me is the strict rule on households. I shop at fairway, my wife does co-op, but we both MUST do co-op shifts? They have all our entry/exit records, it would be very simple to see if it was "fair" to get 6 hours per 4 weeks out of us as a household, but, nooo.. i would have to lie (fake a divorce? an overseas trip?) to get it down to what it should be (1 shift per 4 weeks for my wife).
The last thing that bugs me as a techno-freak is how deeply DEEPLY manual everything is. There is enough computer talent available in the membership base to do a kick-ass scheduling/ftop/shift-swap website that could be used both publically and by phone-workers, but no, they plod along with acres of paper and pencils. and debit cards need two years discussion, and everything is analyzed to death - by people living in the one of the most expensive suburbs in america - for inclusiveness and equality.
Oh and while I'm whining, doing the cart pushing shift is the worst when you're already not zen to it all. You want to take 4 hours out of your work week in order to push 40lb grey carts over broken bluestone 8 blocks to some $3m brownstone for a rich local lady who has like 3 tiny bags of veg that saved her approx $3.50 over a regular mart? fun, huh? Yeah you're not supposed to push it up there, according to the rules, but you gotta push it back, and its a lady. You can just stroll next to her, while she struggles to get it over curbs and whatnot? she knows you're gonna offer to push it for her. yum. such fun! -
You come off sounding really resentful of the Coop, like it's out to make your life hell or something. It just is what it is. I mean you can either try to make it better, or you can leave - but just complaining about it won't help at all. Write a letter to the Gazette, attend a GM, make some proposals, etc. if you have ideas for change. Everyone can have a voice at the Coop.
Anonymous wrote: we're not organised to survive the co-op. I owe 4 make-ups right now. My wife does child-care, which is actually a good shift, good for our kid at least. The problem is that when real life strikes, rescheduling your shift is such a pain, or cancelling on the day (can't get the squad leader on the phone) unless you have the patience of job, you're going to get into a make-up hole.
What really bothers me is the strict rule on households. I shop at fairway, my wife does co-op, but we both MUST do co-op shifts? They have all our entry/exit records, it would be very simple to see if it was "fair" to get 6 hours per 4 weeks out of us as a household, but, nooo.. i would have to lie (fake a divorce? an overseas trip?) to get it down to what it should be (1 shift per 4 weeks for my wife).
The last thing that bugs me as a techno-freak is how deeply DEEPLY manual everything is. There is enough computer talent available in the membership base to do a kick-ass scheduling/ftop/shift-swap website that could be used both publically and by phone-workers, but no, they plod along with acres of paper and pencils. and debit cards need two years discussion, and everything is analyzed to death - by people living in the one of the most expensive suburbs in america - for inclusiveness and equality.
Oh and while I'm whining, doing the cart pushing shift is the worst when you're already not zen to it all. You want to take 4 hours out of your work week in order to push 40lb grey carts over broken bluestone 8 blocks to some $3m brownstone for a rich local lady who has like 3 tiny bags of veg that saved her approx $3.50 over a regular mart? fun, huh? Yeah you're not supposed to push it up there, according to the rules, but you gotta push it back, and its a lady. You can just stroll next to her, while she struggles to get it over curbs and whatnot? she knows you're gonna offer to push it for her. yum. such fun! -
Slopehead wrote: You come off sounding really resentful of the Coop, like it's out to make your life hell or something. It just is what it is. I mean you can either try to make it better, or you can leave - but just complaining about it won't help at all. Write a letter to the Gazette, attend a GM, make some proposals, etc. if you have ideas for change. Everyone can have a voice at the Coop.
I wonder why your fictional rich lady isn't sending her maid?
[quote=Anonymous]we're not organised to survive the co-op. I owe 4 make-ups right now. My wife does child-care, which is actually a good shift, good for our kid at least. The problem is that when real life strikes, rescheduling your shift is such a pain, or cancelling on the day (can't get the squad leader on the phone) unless you have the patience of job, you're going to get into a make-up hole.
What really bothers me is the strict rule on households. I shop at fairway, my wife does co-op, but we both MUST do co-op shifts? They have all our entry/exit records, it would be very simple to see if it was "fair" to get 6 hours per 4 weeks out of us as a household, but, nooo.. i would have to lie (fake a divorce? an overseas trip?) to get it down to what it should be (1 shift per 4 weeks for my wife).
The last thing that bugs me as a techno-freak is how deeply DEEPLY manual everything is. There is enough computer talent available in the membership base to do a kick-ass scheduling/ftop/shift-swap website that could be used both publically and by phone-workers, but no, they plod along with acres of paper and pencils. and debit cards need two years discussion, and everything is analyzed to death - by people living in the one of the most expensive suburbs in america - for inclusiveness and equality.
Oh and while I'm whining, doing the cart pushing shift is the worst when you're already not zen to it all. You want to take 4 hours out of your work week in order to push 40lb grey carts over broken bluestone 8 blocks to some $3m brownstone for a rich local lady who has like 3 tiny bags of veg that saved her approx $3.50 over a regular mart? fun, huh? Yeah you're not supposed to push it up there, according to the rules, but you gotta push it back, and its a lady. You can just stroll next to her, while she struggles to get it over curbs and whatnot? she knows you're gonna offer to push it for her. yum. such fun!
:twisted:
:twisted:
The Coop complaints that bundle up other cloudy resentments about the world ("one of the most expensive suburbs in america"??) and use the Coop as the medium to express *those* frustrations . . . well . . . see the Rushkoff mugging discussion for more of what doesn't work about THAT.
I'm with you on the web scheduling of shifts. I don't do that work, so I don't know what's up there. The slow slow hand work nature is appealing to me in other cases -- like teeny bags of super fresh spices being available because someone in the food processing put it together downstairs. I did that job for awhile and found it totally relaxing compared to the rest of my life. Ditto the years I cashiered - it was a finite time span, slammed with Sunday shoppers, then satisfying to count out the drawer at the end. So yes, I'd love to "take more time out of my work week" to walk around outside...and I love the bluestone sidewalks, even when I tip my cart on the seam I know that new cement doesn't have to get poured every couple years there.
It's a drag that some things change so slowly there, but I just can't get too hyped up about it.
It's a grocery store!
And I love fancy food that is affordable, ditto the gorgeous produce. They must be doing *something* right.
But if you can't make the time to do the work committment, forget it. Once you start to miss shifts, and make-ups pile up . . . I got suspended once, never again! -
Say, are genetically modified foods available at the Coop?
Joking, joking...
I didn't like it so I quit. To the OP: if you don't like it, quit. It's no big deal. -
I shop at Fairway and am very happy. I've even gotten to know some of the people who work there. It is a very friendly place and an amazingly efficient operation. I've never been a member of the PSC, but I have no desire to work shifts to be a member. I work long hours and I value my free time and spending time with my family more than saving a few cents on tomatoes.
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Drano wrote: Say, are genetically modified foods available at the Coop?
yes!
but at least there's an attempt to label them as such so shoppers can make their own choice about it.
Just like place of origin is labeled on the produce, so if you want to eat local you can do thatDrano wrote:
exactly
I didn't like it so I quit. To the OP: if you don't like it, quit. It's no big deal.
do what Drano and Jamzer did - it's easy to join, it's easy to leave, it's easy to stay if you want.
(Jamzer it doesn't boil down to a couple of tomatoes for me . . . but if it did, I'd be at Union Market)
looking at one of the above guest posters . . .
maybe some of the unhappy people are there because their spouse loves it but they don't. bummer. I have a couple friends like that . . . -
I joined, was a member for about a year. The shifts conflicted with my then-job; make-ups and suspensions followed, ended up quitting.
The good: quality produce, cheap spices, cheese, olives. Liked working food processing (bagging and pricing the aforementioned items). Met some really cool co-workers.
The bad: not really all that convenient for me, both location and timewise. Met some really uptight and neurotic co-workers. I'm not really all that good with people barking orders at me if I'm not getting paid (happened a few times, exception, not the rule). The office is like the DMV if it were run by hippies.
So I left. Just wasn't my cup of organically grown, fair-trade, sustainable tea. -
Okay so can I ask to the Coop faithful why there is the household rule that everyone has to work even if they don't shop there? That does not seem fair and it certainly adds to the congestion.
"The office is like the DMV run by hippies" Love that! Totally true. -
Duffy'sSis wrote: Okay so can I ask to the Coop faithful why there is the household rule that everyone has to work even if they don't shop there? That does not seem fair and it certainly adds to the congestion.
Because they probably eat food that their spouse/roomie/etc. buys, and people would take advantage of an honor system. And even if you're not shopping, only consuming stuff someone else buys, people have to work to support your consumption (stocking that much more produce, etc.).
Plus, how does the rule to add to congestion? Workers don't add much to congestion, shoppers do. If you're honestly working and never shopping, then if anything you're reducing congestion. -
Slopehead wrote: I tell everyone that you must be capable of a Zen-like attitude while working and/or shopping there.
That means what?
And what's the joining fee? -
Subject: The Coop is Broken and That Makes me Sad.
So, I've been at the Coop for about five years now. I'm sad to say, the Coop is really starting to bother me. I'm starting to see the Coop as a very broken and poorly managed institution. I think the Coop can do much much better than it currently is doing and it frustrates me that current management seems to believe that changes and improvements have to be made sooooooooo painfully slowly. It bothers me that the Coop is not more customer-oriented. I don't think that a non-profit entity has to be managed poorly and it bothers me that so many people accept that it's OK. This is just the way the Coop is. Live with it.
The Coop's brokenness is a bummer to me because I love the Coop. The produce is incredible, it's a nice place to see friends and connect with people, I actually enjoy doing the mindless work of my receiving shift. I understand that the inflexibility in rules is necessary to run the thing properly. And I really just like the idea of a community-owned collective that can exist without having to make a profit.
But here's the problem: The checkout system is so thoroughly broken that I am increasingly unable to shop in the store that makes me do work for the privilege of shopping!
The last three times I went to the Coop the checkout lines were like 30 people deep. Announcements were buzzing overhead about problems with the cashiers or somesuch. Two of three times I just put my groceries back and left. I didn't have the 45 minutes to spare. The third time, I sucked it up. I needed to shop. And, as is almost always the case, my checkout took forever. 25 minutes to be exact. What was most painful was that the volunteer cashier, my fellow Coop owner, just had no idea how to do her job. She tooookkk foooorrrreeevvvver to check out my stuff. She talked on her cell phone while she fumbled with my groceries. This, after I had waited in line 15 minutes.
I had come to accept that this was the Coop. That virtually every time I shopped there, something would go wrong or, at least, not smoothly with my checkout. But, increasingly, I don't accept it. I'm annoyed and frustrated by it. I don't understand why the Coop's checkout process has to be so incredibly cumbersome and dysfunctional. I'd like a professional management consulting team to come in and help the Coop figure out how to make it work better. Seriously. I'd like the Coop to spend $50,000 to do that. It'd be worth it. It's fixable. Non-profits don't have to be poorly managed anymore.
There are lots of retail software tools and management techniques available to make groceries stores run really well. I don't think that a community-owned store has to be schleppy and slow and broken just because its not profit driven. Increasingly, I see this is a management problem at the Coop. Despite the great, visionary leadership that Joe Holtz and others have provided in founding and running the Coop for 30+ years, they simply haven't been able to keep the store's systems up to the current levels of growth. The Coop is broken. It needs to be fixed.
Someone will probably tell me, Hey man, maybe it's time for you to move on. Sounds like you're done with the Coop. But I don't want to be driven to the Union Market and Fairway and Bierkraft and Key Foods. I want the Coop to work properly. I want to be able to do a transaction without something going horribly wrong. I want the store to be managed using widely available modern techniques (Hello! Credit cards!?). I want new management at the Coop. -
Are you kidding me? Workers TOTALLY add to the congestion. Maybe we work on different shifts but over the last few years it has become crazy on certain shopping shifts, espescialy on the weekends. I have to get to my check out at least 10 minutes before my assigned time because I don't want a make-up worker macking out on my register. And my shift supervisor now spends most of her time finding busy work for people doing make-ups. To say there is not a problem with congestion or that it is only with the amount of customers is not accurate in my humble opinion.
But to the point of GUEST, believe it or not, check out used to be much, much worse. I go back to the days when we were half the size we are today and had to enter every price and weigh all of the produce ourselves. Progress is very slow at the Coop. Credit Cards and ATM machines? I really don't know when that will happen. -
I think there's truth in all the positive and all the negative that has been written. I think that for all its good intentions, the Co-Op and its management have picked up a lot of the 'worst' of what's going on in our society. Two people leave their handbags open for anyone to take their wallet out of and next thing you know there is a big sign above the entrance/exit door that says "PICKPOCKET ALERT!" It's like, huh? Pickpocket? Alert? (there are 13,000 members - not everyone is going to be 'honest.')
People who like the Co-op or really don't care how it's run or that it's supposed to be community based (and this is a diverse range I realize here) get upset and say 'leave.' but the idea is that it's a C0-OP, a cooperative, we are all members and we all should have a 'say.'
That the general managers decide everything basically in my view is a big problem. The agenda for the next meeting is filled with non-issues. There are so many interesting things that could be addressed there.
The rules are all based on things that happen SOMETIMES. (just like the pickpocket alert!) They cater to the worst of everything. Just like all the videocameras installed!
I have no idea why at this point check out and cashier cannot be one. But it's based on the same reasoning - people were giving discounts to their friends. How many people? Does that mean the whole system has to be changed to prevent those (few) instances?
The newspaper had an article titled something like THEFT AT THE CO-OP. When you read the article, the "theft" was so much lower than the national average at food stores, it was ridiculous.
I am a member. I like a lot about it. But I think it's lost some of the COOPERATIVE and become more like a business that's often mean-spirited with all its rules and video cameras that it *creates* a climate of distrust somehow. Not amongst everyone but amongst enough that we've probably all experienced it more than a few times.
That being said : Letters to the Editor! are a good first step - in the Gazette. Talking about this is really important I think and not letting those who want the status quo to remain to dissuade that. The status quo is not always a good thing!
Thanks.
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That simply means that you must achieve a state of inner-peace prior to entering the Coop. I said it sort of half-joking, but there is truth to it. Of course the same could be said for day to day life in New York City.
The joining fee is $25. There is also an investment that you must make of $100 - which is returned if you ever leave. Both of these fees can be paid with installments of as little as $5 a month.
Just to quickly respond to whoever was talking about the seriousness of theft at the Coop, it IS a bigger deal at the Coop precisely because of the non-profit structure. Other grocery stores factor in theft and loss when marking up their stock by 50% or more, but the Coop is marking up only at the bare minimum of 21%. There is very little room for loss absorption. Much of the structure of the Coop is based on a series of checks and balances in order to prevent this.Anonymous wrote: [quote=Slopehead]I tell everyone that you must be capable of a Zen-like attitude while working and/or shopping there.
That means what?
And what's the joining fee? -
Also, the Coop was robbed at gunpoint on a Saturday night shift a few years ago and scared the heck out of everyone working there that day (amd some of us who weren't) so we need the cameras for protection.
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(sigh)
a topic with endless possibilitiesSo, I've been at the Coop for about five years now.
last night's Guest
I wouldn't say "dude, leave" to you
I'm totally for credit cards and web-based scheduling.
I'm seeing the shiny side of the coin myself because I've benefited from some of the changes that *have* happened. Fer instance...
More express checkout workers, and more cashiers. (CAT: I think that system is more to do with the money being consolidated and handled by fewer people and some other security stuff, not about people checking out their friends and stealing. I never heard that anyway, when I was a cashier for years.)
I shop weekend mornings. Alot of people did, so the Coop started opening at 6am Sat/Sun to lighten the congestion. It worked. When I go at 9:30am Saturday, it's quite manageable. I think I just saw a sign about what hours are the heaviest hit, so people could shop around them...
The walkers. There's all these new members that need jobs, and so some new jobs have been created. I love having someone walk me home. I don't have to think twice about how much heavy liquids I'm going to buy on any one trip, since I can take a cart and there's someone to roll it back to the store.What was most painful was that the volunteer cashier, my fellow Coop owner, just had no idea how to do her job. She tooookkk foooorrrreeevvvver to check out my stuff. She talked on her cell phone while she fumbled with my groceries. This, after I had waited in line 15 minutes.
totally a pet peeve of mine too
But I think of that as members not doing their bit, not a management issue.
I just heard a squad leader nicely telling people to speed it up if they could (not the exact words.) I was getting checked out by someone talking on their cell and being sooo slow, and SHE of course acted mightily offended by what the squad leader said. The person next to her, working twice as fast, and I rolled our eyes. I told her, "yeah, there IS a really long line" - like, come ON already. Or is that why checkout spots are so hot?
Seriously, I think if *everyone* really focused did their job the checkout/cashier process would run a million times better.
along those same line.... . . finding busy work for people doing make-ups
I don't do an evening shift, but I get the sense from what you wrote that all these people are f*king up, and then it f*ks up the system, which relies on people to be there and do a certain job.
Cat . . .
I'm pretty sure the general managers don't decide GM agendas. Members submit stuff, and the poor meeting has to dreary it out (okay, I've only been to one...to vote on beer or something:D...but the whole Robert's Rules of Order was in place.) So it works on the Co-op model.
I really think people get frustrated when they see a million ways things could happen better...but then there's 13,000 other people with a different idea about how that same stuff could happen. I feel sorry for the staff that has to hear that from this rotating cast of members. And a staff that's been dealing with those problems full-time, who *might* know better than you. I totally agree that the glacial pace is frustrating when it looks like X could change NOW. But something really has been working right for the the place to survive so long. Get on a committee that does that kind of work if you want to put that amount of energy into the place. Or just blissfully bag raisins in the basement . . . -
how far will the walkers go? (i mean this in a literal sense.)
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sweet tea wrote: how far will the walkers go? (i mean this in a literal sense.)
not all the way to Crown Heights . . . sorry
I *think* it's pretty much within the Slope, and not all the way south.
5 block radius? Maybe a little more on the streets, 4th Ave to the Park on the aves -
pitu wrote: [quote=sweet tea]how far will the walkers go? (i mean this in a literal sense.)
not all the way to Crown Heights . . . sorry
I *think* it's pretty much within the Slope, and not all the way south.
5 block radius? Maybe a little more on the streets, 4th Ave to the Park on the aves
oh well. (if i only lived 5 blocks away, i would have joined a long time ago.)
i did see one heading back from my side of flatbush once, on prospect i think. -
Duffy'sSis wrote: Are you kidding me? Workers TOTALLY add to the congestion. Maybe we work on different shifts but over the last few years it has become crazy on certain shopping shifts, espescialy on the weekends. I have to get to my check out at least 10 minutes before my assigned time because I don't want a make-up worker macking out on my register. And my shift supervisor now spends most of her time finding busy work for people doing make-ups. To say there is not a problem with congestion or that it is only with the amount of customers is not accurate in my humble opinion.
Oh, I thought you meant congestion in the aisles when shopping. Honestly to me, "congestion" in the sense of "it's hard for me to do the nice kind of shift job that I really really like" is a secondary concern at best. But clearly we have different priorities here. I work receiving, not one of the glamor jobs. -
linusvanpelt wrote: I work receiving, not one of the glamor jobs.
but honest hard work, right?
I have lots of friends on those very tight early am receiving shifts. Y'all bond! -
hi. oh just to clarify i know that the general managers don't set the agenda but if you follow it closely , if they don't want something to change within the co-op that is coming up for a vote (and I don't mean to sound so negative but I feel a little cynical about it) they will say 'well we tried that in 1976 and it didn't work so we can't do it now' but if they do want something, it's a different story. So I guess I feel they influence things which of course they should but something does not feel right about the way they do it and the things they focus on - to me, of course. I find it hard to imagine that more interesting things don't get sent to the Agenda Committee but from the agenda it is really sort of drab most of the time.
And that is what I had always heard - the reason check out and cashier were separate was because people were giving their friends breaks. I've never heard it explained any other way. It does seem like it would be unwieldy to have it together now but in regular supermarkets they manage.
I'd have to find the figure about theft if it was related to regular grocery stores or other co-ops. but if it's pretty small even if it IS the co-op... then dramatizing it so really doesn't do anyone any favors ... it just seems to perpetuate this vibe that people are talking about. so even tho' it's supposed to be about community, why do so many people experience negative experiences? I think the problem is that MORE of the membership doesn't get involved -- not that there are too many ideas amongst the members. anyway! thanks for everyone's thoughts. -
pitu wrote:
What is it about adding E to A,B,C,D that you think would break the system? I work in the office; there'd be some work up front to convert, a lot of re-filing, but once it was done, wouldn't it be about the same complexity?
I can't imagine keeping track of a 5 week schedule, or the Coop making 13,000 people work on a 5 week schedule so I *hope* that never gets traction.
For individuals, 5 weeks is easier than 4, as once the day of the month comes up you last worked on, you'd remember you need to work this coming Xday. -
doctorj wrote: [quote=pitu]
What is it about adding E to A,B,C,D that you think would break the system? I work in the office; there'd be some work up front to convert, a lot of re-filing, but once it was done, wouldn't it be about the same complexity?
I can't imagine keeping track of a 5 week schedule, or the Coop making 13,000 people work on a 5 week schedule so I *hope* that never gets traction.
For individuals, 5 weeks is easier than 4, as once the day of the month comes up you last worked on, you'd remember you need to work this coming Xday.
Maybe you're right, I don't know. I wasn't thinking about it from the office's perspective, just individuals...it *seems* like asking for a base 11 counting system instead of base 10. To tell the truth...I worked alot of FTOP**.
Anyway, habit is a powerful thing. If I know I have to do X (say, give the dog a pill) at the end of the month it's easier to remember.
The calendar being what it is, the 4 week system isn't quite as messy as a 5 week one - I remember being a *little* thrown off when my (Sunday B week) shift flipped from one end of the month to the other. Or maybe you'd get used to that always being the case . . .
**For anyone not a member of the coop who's actually trying to follow all this:
FTOP means "future time off program." It's an option for people with impossibly erratic schedules. You "bank" a bunch of shifts in advance instead of signing up for a regular time slot. Quite a few teachers do it, banking a year's worth of shifts during the summer so they don't have to work at all during the school year. -
pitu wrote:
The thing is: I'm forever in danger of missing my shift because it comes earlier and earlier each month (other than February) and sometimes even twice a month. Everything else in my life goes by the month. If it moved later and later each month, and I have a rough idea when I worked last month, then I'd be much better at anticipating the shift rather than waking up to the fact too late. I'm sure you can get very used to the 4-week thing given enough time. But after a couple of years, it still catches me off-guard every single month, as it's always sooner than I expect, compared with all the other things I do each month.
Anyway, habit is a powerful thing. If I know I have to do X (say, give the dog a pill) at the end of the month it's easier to remember.
The calendar being what it is, the 4 week system isn't quite as messy as a 5 week one - I remember being a *little* thrown off when my (Sunday B week) shift flipped from one end of the month to the other. Or maybe you'd get used to that always being the case . . . -
Subject: Re: Park Slope Food Coop
Duffy'sSis wrote: Help!
Have you quit the Coop? What was the final break for you? Do you regret leaving? Where do you shop for groceries now? Do you get your investment back when you offically leave?
Yes, I quit the Coop. I now shop for my groceries at Key Food on 5th Ave, Fresh Direct and Whole Foods. It costs quite a bit more but is worth it to be free of the Coop.
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