another angry rant about out-of-control children

Rose wrote: I guess there must be something to this complaint, because I see it all the time, but I just don't seem to run into all these awful children. Maybe because I stay out of the Tea Lounge, because their coffee is bad and their sofas are skeevy. Though I have noticed that if I walk around looking for things to be pissed off about, I will find them.

Interesting theory about Gen-X childraising practices, though I would have thought it applied much more to the Baby Boomers. I guess at 40 I'm on the older end of Gen-X and I did not find my upbringing to be particularly structured or rigid as my parents (and many of my friends' parents) were too busy during the '70s playing "free to be you and me" and "finding themselves" through est or jogging or open marriage to pay all that much attention to what the kids were up to. At least partly in response, I've raised my kids in a fairly structured way, with clearly defined rules and so forth.

I was just thinking the same thing. I couldn't have had a more permissive upbringing! Me, I raised my kids to be considerate of other people.

Now, can I PLEASE complain about the young people in my building who refuse to lock the doors!!!! Who raised these people?

:-({|=

I thought when you saw I took down my post and sent you an apology that you would delete your post as well. Who is the 12 year old here?

jamzer, this is the same poster who admitted she received an apology from the parent, but it wasn't "good enough".

BP, so someone doesn't like your work. It's not like you were called a racial slur, or anything of that sort.

I love a good pissing match.

I didn't think anyone was bashing, especially when you promote it for all to see.

Let's face it: this entire thread has run the gamut of insulting, from spoiled kids, entitled parents, bad days...hell, the title of it is "out of control children".

I didn't think the "insult" was really an "insult". Rather, just someone's opinion of work shown at a pre-school christmas fair.

And no offense,but I think people are really enjoying this, because no one is letting this thread die.

I apologize for taking the thread off topic.

KM - I never insulted BP's work. I did call it "arts and crafts thingys" which is what I call most of the stuff sold at street/art/children fairs. I realized about 15 seconds after I posted it that it could be wrongly construed as insulting, so I deleted the post (this is a feature that more people should know about). I also sent BP an e-mail in which I apologized. Apparently it was not good enough for her. I’m sorry about that too.

I agree that this thread has run its course and should be allowed to die. My guess however is that it will be only a couple of weeks before another 5 year old makes the awful mistake of being a child and does something to annoy an adult. The adult will not get a good enough apology from the parent and the event will prompt another rant on this board about "out of control children." I promise here and now to not participate.

For whatever reasons, I'm most disturbed by the Tea Lounge incident.

I agree that both the mom and Tea Lounge manager acted like idiots. The mom should have watched her kids to ensure they behaved and the manager should have watched customers to ensure that all customers behaved so that everyone within the Tea Lounge could enjoy their cafe experience.

If Tea Lounge’s management refuses to provide a peaceful, stable environment in which all customers can enjoy the food that they have PAID for, it should exit the café industry, which is committed to comfort and relaxation. The Tea Lounge might as well transform into a newspaper rack in which the chaotic environment of the street – bagels flying out of closet-sized magazine shops with bouncing kids screaming – is expected.

This uncouth mom must have at least two brain cells to know that you cannot sue her for being a bad-mannered, selfish, narcissist. It would have been nice if the mom had offered to replace the food. It’s too bad for her that she lacks class.

Ultimately, it’s Tea Lounge’s management’s responsibility to maintain a peaceful environment and keep all customers happy enough to return and buy more bagels and tea.

Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children

Hello all,

This has been an enlightening thread at times. Without trying to stir up any of the waters, I'd like to add some observations.

I'm a teacher at a public school in PS and recognize many of the behaviours that people have been complained about. I also have had my share of out of control kids, both on the street and in my class room.

I am confused that many of the very same people who profess it "takes a village" to raise a child simultaneously refuse to allow that village to discipline a wayward one. Several posters have already harkened back to that time when, if you stepped out of line, some wizened (and slightly scary) old lady of the block would get a hold of your parents and then when you got home...they got a hold of you. If it's true that "It takes a village" then the village runs both ways: I'm more than just someone who's contributing tax dollars to fund your angel's/monster's public school education. I get a say, too--at least when your angel's toys run into my person, or knock over my lunch. You can't really expect me to be nice about this, or willing to compromise. You really have to take...what are we calling it now in professional development...."ownership" of your kid's or kids' actions.

Many have mis-characterized this particular thread (and ones like it) as "anti-parent" or "Parent bashing". Complaining--even, developing into a Full-Blown Righteous Froth(tm)--about badly behaved kids isn't parent bashing. It's complaining about badly behaved kids. Your motivations for complaining, like your mileage, for doing so, may vary. But if you are the parent of the darling child who has just broken supplies in my classroom, you are really not allowed to question why I put it out there to begin with, any more than you are allowed to ask a crime victim if he was "asking for it" for "dressing like that" or "going to that neighborhood" or "hanging out with those guys." I don't want to sound too hard--okay, actually, I don't mind--but this is really the way the world works, and its expectations are geared accordingly. FYI. Also FYI: lots of kids are being born in China and India who are being taught according to these Crotchety-Old-Fashioned Values that are in such scarcity here (it seems). Your kids are going to compete with them. Teach them well; your Social Security pension depends on it.

I don't hate kids. (I shouldn't have to say that.) I love kids. I even love your kids. But since we are strangers, my love comes with strings: knock over my coffee, hit me with some article of clothing, run over my foot with a scooter, and I'm not going to love your kids any more.

What I expect is not a perfect world where kids won't occasionally do the wrong thing, but a world where kids doing the wrong thing are corrected firmly and swiftly. And yes, I should get an apology. I apologise to people when I bump into them on the subway, and your kids should , too. (I was taught to as a child. So were you.)

As a community, a certain tolerance is called for. As Brooklyngrl (a poster whose ideas I generally take quite vigorous exception to) said, kids are *learning*.

However, the village gets to put in on this, as well. And while it's required that we-without-children must be accommodating to a certain degree, it is doubly required that children must be taught good behaviour.

Finally, I'm curious to shed some more light on something that's been mentioned a few times here: corporal punishment. I got smacked as a kid. I'm a generally functional adult. Is it ANY corporal punishment that is now considered wrong/antediluvian?

Thank you. I'm going back to my DVR'd Grey's Anatomy now.

Tugj

Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children

Rose wrote: [quote=tugj]
Finally, I'm curious to shed some more light on something that's been mentioned a few times here: corporal punishment. I got smacked as a kid. I'm a generally functional adult. Is it ANY corporal punishment that is now considered wrong/antediluvian?

I hope you're not really a teacher.

I think there's been a misunderstanding. I'm talking about parental corporal punishment, not corporal punishment by teachers. Is that what worried you?

Tugj

Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children

tugj wrote: I think there's been a misunderstanding. I'm talking about parental corporal punishment, not corporal punishment by teachers. Is that what worried you? Tugj

Are you a parent?
It has been pretty much proven that corporal punishment does not work. You can discipline swiftly and firmly without hitting. Corporal punishment teaches your kids to hit when angry and frustrated.

I understand what Rose is getting at--it concerns me too if you are a teacher. I understand legally you cannot hit a child, but what concerns me is that do you understand that you don't need to hit a child to be firm? And if you don't, then maybe you don't understand childhood development enough to be in a classroom. I don't mean to be rude here, it is a bit alarming though.

(Seems this thread has just gotten new life--uh oh)

Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children

Dear Kensingtonmom,

I still haven't heard from Rose, but your assumptions about me seem pretty clear. I understand you do not intend to be rude, but registering your concern, based on nothing more than two of my posts, as to my fitness to hold professional title, is itself rude, disrespectful, and presumptuous.

You want to know if I understand that it's possible to discipline a child without hitting them. Yes, I understand this. Are you questioning some life experience I've had? Or did you think I suffer from a cognitive impairment? If so, please tell me directly--it would be incorrect to assume so, but at least it's more direct. Don't hide behind rhetorical registrations of concern. That demonstrates a blithe disregard for normal standards of rhetorical decency.

Moreover, I believe you're (generally, but not entirely) incorrect. As you say, it *is* possible to discipline firmly and effectively without hitting. (By "hitting" I assume we are talking about spanking, as opposed to striking with closed fists, or using some sort of implement.) I believe it's also possible to discipline firmly and effectively with hitting. Generations of children across the globe have been exposed to both models in gross scale. Personally I have seen both models employed within my own family, with varying degrees of success. I have seen my students' parents employ both models as well, again with varying degrees of success.

This doesn't mean *I* believe in hitting, and hence my anger at your apparent assumption. Rather than ask me straight out if that's *my* preferred strategy you question what I know of childhood development.

With respect to your assertion of what has been generally proven about corporal punishment: my experience is that theories, models, and methods of parenting are as diverse as theories and models of child development. And those are about as uniform in character as climate models, JFK assassination theories, and my underwear drawer. If you would like to quote from your favourite authors feel free, only know that on their heels will be a coterie of new-styled experts who say somewhat the same thing, altogether a different thing, and lots in between. I do not believe, then, that you are in position to teach me what has been "generally proven".

Finally, you asked if I am a parent. Not yet. When my partner gets off the fence I'll let you know. Know, however, that being a parent is not some sort of guarantee of some special knowledge--for me or you or anyone else. There are plenty of clueless parents out there--like the one I ran into on the Brooklyn Heights promenade. She had three children with her--between 2 and 12, I'd say. The 12 year-ish old had just scootered, full-tilt, into a jogger. Not only did her son not apologise but she developed an attitude with the jogger and then with me when I asked her why she hadn't apologised. So if your argument is that "Tugj doesn't really know what's up because she's not a mother" then you'll see why I have ample evidence to call that an invalid argument.

I hope this clears some things up, and that we're clear on what I expect from now on in terms of reasoned discourse. I cannot help you or anyone else who's going to make negative personal commentary without adequate data. I believe you owe me an apology.

Tugj

kensingtonmom wrote: [quote=tugj]I think there's been a misunderstanding. I'm talking about parental corporal punishment, not corporal punishment by teachers. Is that what worried you? Tugj

Are you a parent?
It has been pretty much proven that corporal punishment does not work. You can discipline swiftly and firmly without hitting. Corporal punishment teaches your kids to hit when angry and frustrated.

I understand what Rose is getting at--it concerns me too if you are a teacher. I understand legally you cannot hit a child, but what concerns me is that do you understand that you don't need to hit a child to be firm? And if you don't, then maybe you don't understand childhood development enough to be in a classroom. I don't mean to be rude here, it is a bit alarming though.

(Seems this thread has just gotten new life--uh oh)

Wow, I read Tugj's entire post and didn't see anything that made me think s/he hated kids, didn't have control of his/her classroom, or that s/he didn't like children. And s/he certainly didn't express any violent tendencies.

What I read was a post that made alot of sense, children do need to be taught simple courtesy, manners that will help them as adults. Of course, children are children so they will act up and misbehave and many times you can't fault them for it. But when they hurt someone or damage another person's belongings they need to learn how to apologize.

And as cbukster said, these kids who aren't taught proper behavior do grow up to be jerks. I deal with them at my job all the time, they act like they're the only people on the planet, have no concern for others, and unfortunately are rewarded for it by society.

This isn't really just about "out of control" children, it's about having respect for the people with whom we share our space. Apologizing when you bump into them or step on their foot, holding the door open for someone, saying thank you when someone does so for you. There are a million little things that we all deal with every day that make our days a little nicer when someone is courteous. When I get a bunch of nice customers during my shift it makes my day better. When I get a bunch of rude or mean customers it does affect my day negatively.

Anyway, people need to accept responsibility for their (or their children's) actions, that doesn't mean they need to grovel or beg for forgiveness. It means that a sincere apology goes a long way, I'm willing to bet that everyone who posted would have been satisfied by a real apology and wouldn't have brought the incidences up here.

Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children

tugj wrote: Finally, I'm curious to shed some more light on something that's been mentioned a few times here: corporal punishment. I got smacked as a kid. I'm a generally functional adult. Is it ANY corporal punishment that is now considered wrong/antediluvian?Tugj

Whoa! The way you wrote your post you seemed to be suggesting that corporal punishment might be a good option. Two of us read it that way and two of us with children in public and private schools found that alarming. Instead of getting all up in arms and demanding apologies, why not explain the sentence above that you believe we misunderstood. Otherwise, agree to disagree. I don't think hitting is a good option.