another angry rant about out-of-control children
Comments
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Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
In the spirit of full disclosure, which I realize is by no means a requirement here, my partner is an educator. Just yesterday we were discussing an editorial that appeared in our local neighborhood paper - in a place not very far from PS. All I can say is that the timing of this sudden tangent topic within a topic, and the appearance of this letter below is uncanny (I'm leaving the author's name out for privacy reasons). I was struck by two things: the author wrote her missive while in a state of emotional distress (something I'm sure none of us have done before) and with a tinge of nostalgia for a world that probably never existed in the first place. Regardless, I'd be interested in all of your thoughts...
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Stress in School
To The Editor:
I'm angry, chagrined and mad as heck!
My daughter, a second-grade teacher, came home complaining of pain and itching in the right side of her lower chest. The doctor told her it was stress-related shingles. It was partially contagious, so she was confined to her house for rest and pain medication.
My daughter has been teaching for 20 years or so, before and she and her husband raised a family. They have three children, all college graduates and more, holding responsible positions.
My anger is provoked because teachers and principals lack means of disciplining unruly children. The teacher that had my daughter's class in first grade wound up in the hospital with high blood pressure. So, what can we do?
1. Restore paddling;
2. Assign monitors in classrooms that have discipline problems;
3. Give principals the tools necessary to keep schools safe, orderly and environmentally friendly for children who want to learn.
My daughter's pain and itching are partially controlled by medication and salve. They may disappear. Fortunately, this only affected a peripheral intercostals nerve. Had it attacked the auditory or ophthamic nerve, the consequences would have been life-limiting.
Author's Name Private. -
i really don't understand why this has gotten so damned complicated, because it's actually quite simple:
--if your kid hits someone, kicks someone, bites someone, thwaps their kite on someone, a very sincere and audible apology is in order. if you can't control a child who acts this way regularly, perhaps you should figure out why and keep him/her out of places where there are other people.
(personally, and this is just me, if your child's behavior is so rancid that it ruins the meal of another diner in a restaurant--like kicking her, for example--for god's sake pay for that person's dinner. )
--if your kid wrecks something, a display, a bagel, whatever, it's our job to replace it. (actually, legally it is your responsibility, if you want to get into details.) then, apologize and act like you actually mean it.
--watch your children; don't walk down the street with your friends or your cell phone or whatever, leaving your little children behind you to wreak havoc. why not have them walk in front of you? why not stop talking to your friend or get off your cell phone if you see this happening, and then stop it.
essentially, it all boils down to teaching your children that this kind of behavior isn't acceptable. i don't know why this is so hard to grasp.
(and no, btw, i don't believe in hitting children. i also know that sometimes your children can make you so crazy and enraged that you want to hit them, i think that's normal. as for studies that "pretty much prove" that corporal punishment doesn't work, there are pretty much as many that are inconclusive about it. i'm *not* saying it should ever be used. but there are so many studies about this that there are likely as many that go the other way. regardless, i think it's wrong on so many levels, including the idea that it's okay to physically harm anyone. and i'm not talking about the kind of hitting that's considered child abuse. what gives anyone the right to hit/smack another human being?)
regardless, it's basically an issue of common decency and respect. -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
Whoa nothing. You are being disingenuous. You didn't ask me for an explanation; you instead made a large and nasty leap about my professional qualifications. If you really wanted an explanation, you could have asked for one as I did from Rose originally, e.g., "I'm unclear about what you mean, do you mean that x...?" Reread your original reply to me and you'll see that you did not do this.
I wrote a long and considered reply to you. That you have ignored the bulk of it, including the part where I indicate that I believe corporal punishment can be an option for some parents of some kids, demonstrates that you are not paying close attention to what is being said.
You don't get a pass by blithely stating "agree to disagree." Your assumptions were insulting and that you didn't care to investigate, but instead questioned my abilities, in a public forum, demonstrates a lack of civility on your part. Normally an apology is in order in such cases.
Finally, in all of this I haven't posted any assumptions about you as a person, mother, or worker. I would appreciate you taking the time to stop making them about me, and to respond fully where appropriate to the considered replies being made to you.
Tugjkensingtonmom wrote: [quote=tugj]Finally, I'm curious to shed some more light on something that's been mentioned a few times here: corporal punishment. I got smacked as a kid. I'm a generally functional adult. Is it ANY corporal punishment that is now considered wrong/antediluvian?Tugj
Whoa! The way you wrote your post you seemed to be suggesting that corporal punishment might be a good option. Two of us read it that way and two of us with children in public and private schools found that alarming. Instead of getting all up in arms and demanding apologies, why not explain the sentence above that you believe we misunderstood. Otherwise, agree to disagree. I don't think hitting is a good option. -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
tugj wrote: Rose,
You're right, I don't know you, but the impression I get from your posts is that you are very angry and maybe a little off-balance. Threatening to report me to the "management" of an anonymous message board is a little, um, crazy. :roll:
You are out of line. You have no idea what my impulses are, and you have no idea what my classroom is like.
Your assumptions are great, and you have nothing to back them up--you've never met me, you've never been to my classroom, and you certainly are not qualified to render an analysis of my mind based on two posts--one of which was a direct question to you, by the way.
If you register an attack like this again, I really will have no choice but to complain to management. I can only assume that you do this elsewhere.
If the kids in your classroom are routinely running wild and destroying your supplies, then you need to learn how to control your class. And, I found it very chilling that a teacher would express fondness for the idea of corporal punishment. That's all. -
mod note: remember that we don't like name calling (rules that sometimes rival the rules parents have for their kids, frankly) or abusive posts.
non-mod note: I agree with 95% of what tugj wrote. why? my dad never hit me. but he would grab at his belt when he was furious with my behavior and let me say that doing that stuck in my mind for a long time. the THREAT of corporal punishment meant a lot to me - mostly because my parents raised me to be a generally good and considerate person. realizing that my behavior MIGHT merit corporal punishment was horrifying - I was disappointed in myself. as a 7 year old. I think people are reading too much into tugj's posts - think his/her's posts are genuinely made out of concern for children, but that is NOT official word from this website, just my personal opinion. -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
To anyone who has ever worked in any sort of job, this is hideously ridiculous. Shingles is a virus - an off-shoot of the chicken pox virus. Both my mother and my mother-in-law have had it, and both are happily retired and relatively young.
It comes down to personal responsibility - if you are having a miserable life, it is far easier to blame your job, the local kids, the dog poop, your sister in law, the subway system.....
Has no one here ever had a boss that pushed them over the edge? Has no one ever had a "toxic" friendship?
Now yes, I know there will be lots of replies telling me that this is all the result of those "out of control kids" that have grown up. It's pure bullshit. The only person you have control over is YOU. If somone doesn't apologise to your liking, that's YOUR problem. If someone manages a restaurant poorly, don't go back.
Just stop making it your life's work to find fault with everyone else and think you are perfect.cbukster wrote:
Stress in School
To The Editor:
I'm angry, chagrined and mad as heck!
My daughter, a second-grade teacher, came home complaining of pain and itching in the right side of her lower chest. The doctor told her it was stress-related shingles. It was partially contagious, so she was confined to her house for rest and pain medication.
<snip>
3. Give principals the tools necessary to keep schools safe, orderly and environmentally friendly for children who want to learn.
My daughter's pain and itching are partially controlled by medication and salve. They may disappear. Fortunately, this only affected a peripheral intercostals nerve. Had it attacked the auditory or ophthamic nerve, the consequences would have been life-limiting.
Author's Name Private. -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
tugj wrote: I believe it's also possible to discipline firmly and effectively with hitting. Generations of children across the globe have been exposed to both models in gross scale. Personally I have seen both models employed within my own family, with varying degrees of success. I have seen my students' parents employ both models as well, again with varying degrees of success.
I don't want to argue with you. We disagree. I don't believe in hitting children--period. Being a mother, I do read all the parenting books and many of the old ones too (if you aren't a parent, why would you waste time reading these books?). I just have not seen any valid studies ANYWHERE that support corporal punishment period. ANYWHERE. I have read some booklet the christian right put out in support of corporal punishment but that is the only thing I have seen printed in the last 100 years. I would actually be curious to read one (because as a mother of young children it would be easier to smack then do a time out at times). Violence begets violence--I have boys and would rather they grow up not using their fists. Kids are not brats because someone isn't whacking them at home--they are brats because they are indulged.
I cannot apologize about being concerned that a teacher supports corporal punishment. -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
The impression that you should be getting is that I'm angry at you, not angry in general. An impression is just that: an impression, not an indelible and infallible record. You need to ask more questions before you launch off with your commentary. What I teach my kids is, when you feel yourself getting upset/surprised/shocked, that's when you need to be most careful. That's why I asked you that question directly in my second post--rather than responding. You did not see it fit to follow the same basic protocol.
My anger has nothing to do with being "crazy", to use your word. It has to do with being attacked personally by someone who jumped to a conclusion and made an ad hominem comment. The next time someone assaults your integrity and fitness based on nothing more than a single post, you'll likely feel the same. I will not be lining up and calling you "crazy" for telling the attacker that he/she ought to be admonished. Even on a public, anonymous board.
I have not "expressed fondness" for corporal punishment, you said that I did. I have said that it seems to work for some parents of some children. There's a difference, and I need you to be able to discern that. So does everyone who reads this board--whether they agree with me or you or not.
You are guilty of a number of things, but the most glaring (aside from feeling ad hominem commentary is ok) is that you do not read posts closely enough to comment on them.
I said that if a kid breaks something in my class, it isn't appropriate for the parent to question why it was out there. I did not say that kids are routinely running wild in my class You said that. You actually made something up! In a public forum! It's not just a hurtful thing to do, it's dangerous and dishonest. As a community member, I might not like you, but I need to be able to trust you. When you make things up like this, you compromise your everything. Posting on an anonymous board, indeed, is your saving grace here.
That you have the nerve to parade this, for every one to see, proves that no moderation is going to help at this point. You're simply shameless.Rose wrote: [quote=tugj]Rose,
You're right, I don't know you, but the impression I get from your posts is that you are very angry and maybe a little off-balance. Threatening to report me to the "management" of an anonymous message board is a little, um, crazy. :roll:
You are out of line. You have no idea what my impulses are, and you have no idea what my classroom is like.
Your assumptions are great, and you have nothing to back them up--you've never met me, you've never been to my classroom, and you certainly are not qualified to render an analysis of my mind based on two posts--one of which was a direct question to you, by the way.
If you register an attack like this again, I really will have no choice but to complain to management. I can only assume that you do this elsewhere.
If the kids in your classroom are routinely running wild and destroying your supplies, then you need to learn how to control your class. And, I found it very chilling that a teacher would express fondness for the idea of corporal punishment. That's all. -
To the guest, let's be clear: the editorial was not written by me - just provided as an example of a recent letter to a local newspaper...I don't know the author of the letter either.
cbuksterJust stop making it your life's work to find fault with everyone else and think you are perfect.
cbukster wrote:
Stress in School
To The Editor:
I'm angry, chagrined and mad as heck!
My daughter, a second-grade teacher, came home complaining of pain and itching in the right side of her lower chest. The doctor told her it was stress-related shingles. It was partially contagious, so she was confined to her house for rest and pain medication.
<snip>
3. Give principals the tools necessary to keep schools safe, orderly and environmentally friendly for children who want to learn.
My daughter's pain and itching are partially controlled by medication and salve. They may disappear. Fortunately, this only affected a peripheral intercostals nerve. Had it attacked the auditory or ophthamic nerve, the consequences would have been life-limiting.
Author's Name Private. -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
You have taken the cake. You insult me and then you tell me "I don't want to argue with you."
You're not arguing with me, you're fighting. Argument is the reasoned application of inference and logic. It depends on assumptions being ferreted out and either validated or eliminated. You've made assertions utterly unsupported by the facts, and made spurious reference to research of what is "generally proved" about child rearing, in bald faced disregard that generations of parents have done other than you and the sun is still shining. Do you really believe yourself that much more advanced, enlightened, and better? Is this you, or just you mirroring what David McCullough used to call "the common hubris of our time...that the accomplishments of our age eclipse those of all others"?
I understand that you do not believe in hitting children. That's not what this was about, and it never was--you're simply backpedaling to a simple assertion. This is unreasonable, as is your statement that we disagree. I think we both knew that, and your bringing it up helps us in no way.
You won't apologise? You should apologise for what you assumed and posted about me, not over our differences. If you see the difference there, and do that, you'll have done a very adult thing. Your obstinacy, on the other hand, is simple adolescent petulance.kensingtonmom wrote: [quote=tugj] I believe it's also possible to discipline firmly and effectively with hitting. Generations of children across the globe have been exposed to both models in gross scale. Personally I have seen both models employed within my own family, with varying degrees of success. I have seen my students' parents employ both models as well, again with varying degrees of success.
I don't want to argue with you. We disagree. I don't believe in hitting children--period. Being a mother, I do read all the parenting books and many of the old ones too (if you aren't a parent, why would you waste time reading these books?). I just have not seen any valid studies ANYWHERE that support corporal punishment period. ANYWHERE. I have read some booklet the christian right put out in support of corporal punishment but that is the only thing I have seen printed in the last 100 years. I would actually be curious to read one (because as a mother of young children it would be easier to smack then do a time out at times). Violence begets violence--I have boys and would rather they grow up not using their fists. Kids are not brats because someone isn't whacking them at home--they are brats because they are indulged.
I cannot apologize about being concerned that a teacher supports corporal punishment. -
i think tugj is making a lot of good points. as a childless singleton, i have a lot of respect for parents and i have a gigantic amount of respect for teachers. spending 40 hours a week with a classroom full of even the most well-behaved children has to be completely exhausting.
as far as corporal punishment goes, i was spanked maybe once or twice as a child and it was enough to teach me to be a good little girl. i don't think hitting is the best solution, but my childhood spankings have not haunted me or given me any sort of proclivity to violence. but it was obviously my overall raising that made me the polite person that i am, not just the spanking.
and every day i come across rude people in this city who walk out of shops ahead of me and let the heavy door swing back in my face and all i can ever think is, "who raised you??" -
Thank you. It's good to see that not everyone jumps to conclusions.
As the elder child, I was also spanked a couple of times. It taught me to be a good little girl as well. This doesn't mean that I think that my parents couldn't have come up with another solution. It does suggest that it's possible to become a perfectly functional adult and have been spanked. It has also taught me that in the arena of child rearing, no one has a right to claims of infallibility and ultimate knowledge. This is what is so upsetting about some of those active on this board: the blinkered, George-Bush-like refusal to acknowledge that there are others out there who disagree with you who aren't Evil.
I never respected my job as much as I do until I did it either. I spend all day in a small box with other peoples' children, and it has taught me to be incredibly respectful of parents in trying times, and equally demanding for those who are slacking on the job.
"Who raised you?" indeed. I think this to myself all the time when faced with adults who share their cell phone conversations next to my dinner table, stand right in front of the subway doors when I'm trying to enter or exit, or walk right by an old man trying to cross the street.
Children are reflections of their parents' values, all outlying exceptions considered. Those who are thoughtless and uncouth as children grow up to be equally so as adults. The saddest commentary is that, as my life partner says, they're awarded for such behavior as adults.
Tugjashlee spears wrote: i think tugj is making a lot of good points. as a childless singleton, i have a lot of respect for parents and i have a gigantic amount of respect for teachers. spending 40 hours a week with a classroom full of even the most well-behaved children has to be completely exhausting.
as far as corporal punishment goes, i was spanked maybe once or twice as a child and it was enough to teach me to be a good little girl. i don't think hitting is the best solution, but my childhood spankings have not haunted me or given me any sort of proclivity to violence. but it was obviously my overall raising that made me the polite person that i am, not just the spanking.
and every day i come across rude people in this city who walk out of shops ahead of me and let the heavy door swing back in my face and all i can ever think is, "who raised you??" -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
Kensingtonmom, what would you do as a teacher if a child was about to jab a sharp pencil into your eye or that of another student (you'd be surprised what takes place even in the best of public school classrooms)? How might you gain control of the classroom in that case? What, as a parent, would you expect the teacher to do in that instant? Just curious. Please don't read into this; it's not some trick question, but I'd really like to know from you or anyone.kensingtonmom wrote: [quote=tugj] I believe it's also possible to discipline firmly and effectively with hitting. Generations of children across the globe have been exposed to both models in gross scale. Personally I have seen both models employed within my own family, with varying degrees of success. I have seen my students' parents employ both models as well, again with varying degrees of success.
I don't want to argue with you. We disagree. I don't believe in hitting children--period. Being a mother, I do read all the parenting books and many of the old ones too (if you aren't a parent, why would you waste time reading these books?). I just have not seen any valid studies ANYWHERE that support corporal punishment period. ANYWHERE. I have read some booklet the christian right put out in support of corporal punishment but that is the only thing I have seen printed in the last 100 years. I would actually be curious to read one (because as a mother of young children it would be easier to smack then do a time out at times). Violence begets violence--I have boys and would rather they grow up not using their fists. Kids are not brats because someone isn't whacking them at home--they are brats because they are indulged.
I cannot apologize about being concerned that a teacher supports corporal punishment. -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
GiGi wrote: Kensingtonmom, what would you do as a teacher if a child was about to jab a sharp pencil into your eye or that of another student (you'd be surprised what takes place even in the best of public school classrooms)? How might you gain control of the classroom in that case? What, as a parent, would you expect the teacher to do in that instant? Just curious? Please don't read into this; it's not some trick question, but I'd really like to know from you or anyone.
A teacher in the New York City school system is allowed to use reasonable physical force to protect him/herself or others, but not as a disciplinary measure. If you are actually interested in what the rules are, you can look at the Chancellor's Regulation on corporal punishment:
http://docs.nycenet.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-19/A-420__11-16-04.pdf -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
Thanks Rose for the link! I am actually interested in the topic of School Law and wanted to hear from real parents, since I am not a parent.Rose wrote: [quote=GiGi]Kensingtonmom, what would you do as a teacher if a child was about to jab a sharp pencil into your eye or that of another student (you'd be surprised what takes place even in the best of public school classrooms)? How might you gain control of the classroom in that case? What, as a parent, would you expect the teacher to do in that instant? Just curious? Please don't read into this; it's not some trick question, but I'd really like to know from you or anyone.
A teacher in the New York City school system is allowed to use reasonable physical force to protect him/herself or others, but not as a disciplinary measure. If you are actually interested in what the rules are, you can look at the Chancellor's Regulation on corporal punishment:
http://docs.nycenet.edu/docushare/dsweb/Get/Document-19/A-420__11-16-04.pdf -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
GiGi wrote: Kensingtonmom, what would you do as a teacher if a child was about to jab a sharp pencil into your eye or that of another student (you'd be surprised what takes place even in the best of public school classrooms)? How might you gain control of the classroom in that case? What, as a parent, would you expect the teacher to do in that instant? Just curious. Please don't read into this; it's not some trick question, but I'd really like to know from you or anyone.
I would hope with 4 years of undergrad and two years of grad I would have had some training how to handle it. As a parent, I imagine I would restrain their hands and have the principal handle the discipline? I don't think anyone has to sit passively and be injured (although I don't think BrooklynPotter was being jabbed in the eyes at the Tea Lounge).
It is funny I mentioned to a friend that there is a constant tension between parents and single people that continually comes up in Park Slope and my friend's response (who doesn't live in NY) was--sounds like spoiled rich parents vs. spoiled hipsters and both need more to worry about. Hmmm. -
Kensingtonmom wrote:
--sounds like spoiled rich parents vs. spoiled hipsters and both need more to worry about. Hmmm.
Hey kensmom: perhaps you're right. There's a nasty snowstorm or two brewing in the central US that should arrive here sometime Tues/Wed. Could be significant enough to put the breaks on this topic for at least a short period of time whilst everyone - "parents and single people" - digs out and spreads the ice melt. Time will tell...
cbukster -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
kensingtonmom wrote: [quote=GiGi]Kensingtonmom, what would you do as a teacher if a child was about to jab a sharp pencil into your eye or that of another student (you'd be surprised what takes place even in the best of public school classrooms)? How might you gain control of the classroom in that case? What, as a parent, would you expect the teacher to do in that instant? Just curious. Please don't read into this; it's not some trick question, but I'd really like to know from you or anyone.
I would hope with 4 years of undergrad and two years of grad I would have had some training how to handle it. As a parent, I imagine I would restrain their hands and have the principal handle the discipline? I don't think anyone has to sit passively and be injured (although I don't think BrooklynPotter was being jabbed in the eyes at the Tea Lounge).
It is funny I mentioned to a friend that there is a constant tension between parents and single people that continually comes up in Park Slope and my friend's response (who doesn't live in NY) was--sounds like spoiled rich parents vs. spoiled hipsters and both need more to worry about. Hmmm.
oh wait, but it's only actions that stop short of being stopped in the eye (to use the example quoted) that are ok? come on! kids acting like shits are NOT OK. ever. and the fault is squarely on the parent. the kid is learning from who? if your kids are learning how to behave from tv or from school, you're not a good parent. if your kids makes it out ok, that's to their credit. not yours. period. -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
Amen! Somebody say Amen!
This was never about spoiled rich hipsters. I have enough of those stories, and none of them belong here...
Tugjalafairnadia wrote: [quote=kensingtonmom][quote=GiGi]Kensingtonmom, what would you do as a teacher if a child was about to jab a sharp pencil into your eye or that of another student (you'd be surprised what takes place even in the best of public school classrooms)? How might you gain control of the classroom in that case? What, as a parent, would you expect the teacher to do in that instant? Just curious. Please don't read into this; it's not some trick question, but I'd really like to know from you or anyone.
I would hope with 4 years of undergrad and two years of grad I would have had some training how to handle it. As a parent, I imagine I would restrain their hands and have the principal handle the discipline? I don't think anyone has to sit passively and be injured (although I don't think BrooklynPotter was being jabbed in the eyes at the Tea Lounge).
It is funny I mentioned to a friend that there is a constant tension between parents and single people that continually comes up in Park Slope and my friend's response (who doesn't live in NY) was--sounds like spoiled rich parents vs. spoiled hipsters and both need more to worry about. Hmmm.
oh wait, but it's only actions that stop short of being stopped in the eye (to use the example quoted) that are ok? come on! kids acting like shits are NOT OK. ever. and the fault is squarely on the parent. the kid is learning from who? if your kids are learning how to behave from tv or from school, you're not a good parent. if your kids makes it out ok, that's to their credit. not yours. period. -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
alafairnadia wrote: oh wait, but it's only actions that stop short of being stopped in the eye (to use the example quoted) that are ok? come on! kids acting like shits are NOT OK. ever. and the fault is squarely on the parent. the kid is learning from who? if your kids are learning how to behave from tv or from school, you're not a good parent. if your kids makes it out ok, that's to their credit. not yours. period.
O.K. I am totally confused. I don't even know what this thread is about. The topic had switched to corporal punishment. I don't think you are saying that the kid who hit Brooklynpotter with a kite in a PARK should be paddled? I mean are you? I think EVERYONE on this thread has agreed that parents need to take responsibility for their kids' behavior and rectify it. Then Tugi changed the topic from spoiled kids or spoiled parents to her wondering about bringing back corporal punishment and she also mentioned she was a teacher. And then someone wanted to know about what to do about a kid poking you in the eye with a pencil for God's sakes which has nothing to do with kids at the tea lounge. I mean I don't remember fending off a posse of crayon and pencil weilding toddlers there. I think everyone is preaching to the converted here about indulgant parenting. Nobody is for it.
But I am suprised how many people seem to think whacking someone who weighs 1/4 of your body weight is O.K. Do you same people smack your dogs or cats? -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
alafairnadia wrote: oh wait, but it's only actions that stop short of being stopped in the eye (to use the example quoted) that are ok? come on! kids acting like shits are NOT OK. ever. and the fault is squarely on the parent. the kid is learning from who? if your kids are learning how to behave from tv or from school, you're not a good parent. if your kids makes it out ok, that's to their credit. not yours. period.
O.K. I am totally confused. I don't even know what this thread is about. The topic had switched to corporal punishment. I don't think you are saying that the kid who hit Brooklynpotter with a kite in a PARK should be paddled? I mean are you? I think EVERYONE on this thread has agreed that parents need to take responsibility for their kids' behavior and rectify it. Then Tugi changed the topic from spoiled kids or spoiled parents to her wondering about bringing back corporal punishment and she also mentioned she was a teacher. And then someone wanted to know about what to do about a kid poking you in the eye with a pencil for God's sakes which has nothing to do with kids at the tea lounge. I mean I don't remember fending off a posse of crayon and pencil weilding toddlers there. I think everyone is preaching to the converted here about indulgant parenting. Nobody is for it.
But I am suprised how many people seem to think whacking someone who weighs 1/4 of your body weight is O.K. Do you same people smack your dogs or cats? -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
kensingtonmom wrote: ...(although I don't think BrooklynPotter was being jabbed in the eyes at the Tea Lounge)....
do you think the mom would have offered to buy my friend a new bagel if her kid had just jabbed her in the eye? -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
brooklynpotter wrote: [quote=kensingtonmom]...(although I don't think BrooklynPotter was being jabbed in the eyes at the Tea Lounge)....
do you think the mom would have offered to buy my friend a new bagel if her kid had just jabbed her in the eye?
Who knows! Fear of law suits can make many people tow the line and act reasonable. Or maybe she would stare in awe at her kid's first artistic pointilis creation.
(sorry for the double post above) -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
kensingtonmom wrote: Do you same people smack your dogs or cats?
this is actually an interesting parallel, because my cat, whom i adore more than life (and, as i type this, is trying to sit on my head) is more often than not terribly anti-social and extremely mean and hostile to most other human beings. she scares the crap out of my mother, on purpose.
what do you think i do when people come over? she gets one chance, and the guest gets asked if they want the cat out of the room. one hiss, one moan, and she's banished. end of story.
(and, i believe, like children, i am legally responsible for the consequences of her lousy behavior) -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
brooklynpotter wrote: what do you think i do when people come over? she gets one chance, and the guest gets asked if they want the cat out of the room. one hiss, one moan, and she's banished. end of story.
There are lots of ways to raise kids. A popular one in the Victorian Era was the children are to be seen and not heard method. I am not condoning rude bratty behavior or the ridiculous parents who think it is fine. (But many kids I know, I are pretty amusing). So I vote for not banishing children from Park Slope. -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
kensingtonmom wrote: [quote=alafairnadia]oh wait, but it's only actions that stop short of being stopped in the eye (to use the example quoted) that are ok? come on! kids acting like shits are NOT OK. ever. and the fault is squarely on the parent. the kid is learning from who? if your kids are learning how to behave from tv or from school, you're not a good parent. if your kids makes it out ok, that's to their credit. not yours. period.
O.K. I am totally confused. I don't even know what this thread is about. The topic had switched to corporal punishment. I don't think you are saying that the kid who hit Brooklynpotter with a kite in a PARK should be paddled? I mean are you? I think EVERYONE on this thread has agreed that parents need to take responsibility for their kids' behavior and rectify it. Then Tugi changed the topic from spoiled kids or spoiled parents to her wondering about bringing back corporal punishment and she also mentioned she was a teacher. And then someone wanted to know about what to do about a kid poking you in the eye with a pencil for God's sakes which has nothing to do with kids at the tea lounge. I mean I don't remember fending off a posse of crayon and pencil weilding toddlers there. I think everyone is preaching to the converted here about indulgant parenting. Nobody is for it.
But I am suprised how many people seem to think whacking someone who weighs 1/4 of your body weight is O.K. Do you same people smack your dogs or cats?
hang on! where did I say corporal punishment is OK? can you read? and, frankly, to be literal about this, some fuckin' kids in PS assaulted brooklynpotter and their parents essentially DIDN'T CARE. lame lame lame. -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
alafairnadia wrote:
well, they assaulted my friend more; she was the one who was kicked. she was the one who got her breakfast smashed. me, i just got thwapped in the head by a kite.
hang on! where did I say corporal punishment is OK? can you read? and, frankly, to be literal about this, some fuckin' kids in PS assaulted brooklynpotter and their parents essentially DIDN'T CARE. lame lame lame. -
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
brooklynpotter wrote: [quote=alafairnadia]
well, they assaulted my friend more; she was the one who was kicked. she was the one who got her breakfast smashed. me, i just got thwapped in the head by a kite.
hang on! where did I say corporal punishment is OK? can you read? and, frankly, to be literal about this, some fuckin' kids in PS assaulted brooklynpotter and their parents essentially DIDN'T CARE. lame lame lame.
thanks for clarifying. but the point is, these kids assaulted someone. I'm not saying they gotta go to jail, but their parents are idiots. -
yup. and worse, they seem to think it's ok.
-
Subject: Re: another angry rant about out-of-control children
kensingtonmom wrote: But I am suprised how many people seem to think whacking someone who weighs 1/4 of your body weight is O.K. Do you same people smack your dogs or cats?
I dont hit my child and couldnt imagine ever doing so (even if I thought it was appropriate I couldnt do it) nor do I hit my dogs but
if they (the dogs) are engaged in something they shouldnt, I might smack them on the ass (not painfully but to startle them) and if they ever exhibit even the slightest, tiniest behavior that could be dangerous to a person or perceived as aggressive or dominant I will grab them fairly hard by the neck and push them down onto the floor and onto their back and tell them firmly what I think of their behavior.
Clearly this is not 'corporal punishment' but it is using physicality to maintain disipline and while kids and dogs are very different I am sure there is some analogy with kids - like if your child is about to put his/her finger in an outlet or run out into the street - I could see then how a jarring grab and a forecefull lecture is the appropriate parental response. Of course this is far different from systematic and formalized hitting/spanking - I reserve that type of stuff for kinky and consenting sex partners
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