another angry rant about out-of-control children
Comments
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Carnivore wrote: Well said, cbukster. And for the record, any comparison of children to dogs and cats was a response to kmom, who initially brought up the analogy.
I actually brought it up in reference to corporal punishment not comparing children to pets.
I think there is a lot of spoiled complaining on this thread. Get over it. Kids are not going to be locked in closets. They are learning to negotiate the world. And that doesn't let bad parenting off the hook
And I too have NEVER been kicked by a child nor seen anyone kicked by a child! -
I'm self-righteous? What is the point then? If it's that kids should not be allowed to run wild and kick and scream and eat your salad and that parents who allow that are shitty, inconsiderate people? Well, duh. I'm not arguing against that. I'd be silly if I was and I'm not silly. I'm talking about people who are saying where kids should be allowed to go, not wanting to say hello to them, what they would do if they were a parent, etc.
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And all I'm saying is that parents need to be aware of what their children are doing while in public (which includes reprimanding bad behavior) and to be more considerate of other people - whether they have children or not. True, I don't think children should be in bars - how does that benefit anyone? True, I think if a toddler is too young to sit quietly throughout an entire meal in a restaurant, they should be left home with a sitter. True, I think those cool papoos things are a better option than strollers when shopping. True, I don't necessary want to be interupted during my dining, cocktail-ing, coffee-ing, conversations, reading, working, whatever I may be doing by someone I don't know and who isn't even tacitly invited to do so (whether that be a child or an adult). Does this make me a bad hipster? I don't think so. I think it makes me someone who values my quality of life just as I try to respect others. After all, we all do live on top of each other in this little patch of heaven called Brooklyn, so wouldn't it be nice if we could all make a little effort?
Oh! Hey! Wait a minute! I get it now! Innocent X, you are trying to rile us up! You are trying to start a flame war with your incredibly narrow and in many cases, intentionally misinterpretation of posts! Well, bravo! You had me going! -
I'm not trying to rile anyone up. I'm just talking.
Basically what I see is a bunch of people looking at kids in a restaurant, bar, book store, etc. as if they were looking at a black person using a white water fountain. To me, that's pretty ugly. And I'll say it again: completely sad. -
It looks like a group of out of control children took over this thread.
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When I compare training kids to training dogs, I followed it up with "KIDDING", in all caps, just like that. Get some glasses.
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Innocent X wrote: I'm not trying to rile anyone up. I'm just talking.
Finally - someone who makes sense. Are we forgetting that this thread started by someone who was annoyed by children in a park? Seriously? A person who said "I'm mad because it ruined my day"
Basically what I see is a bunch of people looking at kids in a restaurant, bar, book store, etc. as if they were looking at a black person using a white water fountain. To me, that's pretty ugly. And I'll say it again: completely sad.
I have had more instances of awful smelly guys trying to chat me up in a bar than kids being annoying, or merely just being kids.
Seriously, who is being childish here? -
Innocent X wrote: I'm not trying to rile anyone up. I'm just talking.
That's a rather obtuse opinion and as a person of color I take offense. No one on this forum is debasing the children of Park Slope in any way, shape, or form that describes that shameful period in American history. We are saying they are RUDE, not subject to arcane racist Jim Crow laws. Come up with a better metaphor please.
Basically what I see is a bunch of people looking at kids in a restaurant, bar, book store, etc. as if they were looking at a black person using a white water fountain. To me, that's pretty ugly. And I'll say it again: completely sad.
Especially since that comparison doesn't take into account the issue at hand. That there are children running around "pushing boundaries". To add my piece: yes I am single, yes I am young, no I do not have children, no I am not a 'hipster', no I am not a 'bitter career woman'. All of those aspects do not discount the simple fact that I've witnessed children in Park Slope hideously misbehaving time and time again.
It's one thing to see a fussy child and a tired mom strolling their way home. It's another to see a belligerant child whining, pouting, kicking and their parents bribe them with a treat to keep quiet. A toy, ice cream, whatever- I see it a lot. To see a spoiled toddler scream bloody murder and hit a perfect stranger because their parents weren't adequately dealing with the problem at hand.
I've been hit, run over, jostled, bumped, and slapped. I've yet to receive a sincere apology but even a fake one is few and far between. Living here, we've seen it all and more often than not it's the parent letting their child run the show. It's exhausting to see mulitple examples of parents caving in because it's the easy way out.
Mind you, this is some not all of the PS kids. There are great kids and great parents here. It's unfortunate that a select few are giving this neighborhood a bad name. -
Leona wrote: It's unfortunate that a select few are giving this neighborhood a bad name.
Well, there's a lot of threads, lot of posts, about these few.
As far as the metaphor (technically a simile isn't it?), I'm happy with it. It's a terrible feeling to walk into an establishment and wonder who's watching you, judging you, hating you, waiting for you to slip up, wishing you weren't there. That's what posts like the ones made in this thread, in other threads, make me start to feel about bringing my daughter around the neighborhood. Suddenly I can't go into Long Tan unless I muzzle my daughter for 40 straight minutes. I can't let her say hi to people, can't let her be curious, can't let her be...who she is. There's also the whole idea that the child-bearers and their offspring should know their place, the whole "you don't belong here" vibe. So yeah, like I said, I'm fine with the metaphor. -
Leona wrote: It's one thing to see a fussy child and a tired mom strolling their way home. It's another to see a belligerant child whining, pouting, kicking and their parents bribe them with a treat to keep quiet. A toy, ice cream, whatever- I see it a lot. To see a spoiled toddler scream bloody murder and hit a perfect stranger because their parents weren't adequately dealing with the problem at hand.
How dare you assume to know what's going on when you see a screaming child? You have no idea what the situation is, nor have you walked in those shoes. Case in point: my friend's seriously autistic child can be very unpleasant to be around, even to to those of us with kids, but should she keep him locked up because it bugs you? How dare you assume a child is spoiled because they are interupting your precious day? How dare you even assume a parent is not doing "their job" because it interferes with your life. How dare anyone tell me how to adequately apologize to them.
How f*cking dare all of you. Get over you damn selves. The world revolves around all of us, not just a select few of you with no one to think about except yourselves. -
Good lord, IX, you can't be serious. What kind of self-involved, overprivileged sack of absolute shit actually believes that the way he feels when he takes his spawn into a Park Slope establishment compares in any way to the experiences of black Americans under Jim Crow?
Edited to add, there are about a thousand things wrong with your little analogy, but let's start with the fact that that no law whatsoever prevents you from taking your kid into the PS restaurant, shop, etc. of your choice. -
bklyngirl wrote: How dare you assume a child is spoiled because they are interupting your precious day? How dare you even assume a parent is not doing "their job" because it interferes with your life. How dare anyone tell me how to adequately apologize to them. How f*cking dare all of you. Get over you damn selves. The world revolves around all of us, not just a select few of you with no one to think about except yourselves.
Well, I think just gave all of us a perfect example of the kind of attitude BP was originally complaining about. -
Making a comparison between two things doesn't necessitate comparing each thing in its entirety. I'm not talking about law, I'm talking about attitude.
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Carnivore wrote:
But Innocent X has some points. Why should those of us with children muzzle our kids? It seems one of the camps here is that kids should not be interfering with "adult space." I never let my kids act out in restaurants and as I have said, we have indoor voices, outdoor voices and restaurant voices. But as much as I need to make sure my kids aren't a nuisance, child-free people need to chill out and accept children with their limitations. Not out of control brats but kids being kids. Can't that be our common ground? Their is no excuse for obnoxious parenting. But when I bring my kids to a restaurant I see the glares when we walk in the door, I hear the people request any table but near THEM. (Meanwhile my children are great in restaurants and the waitstaff and customers in the adjacent tables always compliment us). So we are being judged for having small people at the table. Which I do understand....before having kids I didn't want to sit near one in an airplane.
Well, I think just gave all of us a perfect example of the kind of attitude BP was originally complaining about.
But I have to say again, grow up. There are children in the world and their are poor people in the world and they do share your space. -
kensingtonmom wrote: [quote=Carnivore]
But Innocent X has some points. Why should those of us with children muzzle our kids? It seems one of the camps here is that kids should not be interfering with "adult space." I never let my kids act out in restaurants and as I have said, we have indoor voices, outdoor voices and restaurant voices. But as much as I need to make sure my kids aren't a nuisance, child-free people need to chill out and accept children with their limitations. Not out of control brats but kids being kids. Can't that be our common ground? Their is no excuse for obnoxious parenting. But when I bring my kids to a restaurant I see the glares when we walk in the door, I hear the people request any table but near THEM. (Meanwhile my children are great in restaurants and the waitstaff and customers in the adjacent tables always compliment us). So we are being judged for having small people at the table. Which I do understand....before having kids I didn't want to sit near one in an airplane.
Well, I think just gave all of us a perfect example of the kind of attitude BP was originally complaining about.
All quite reasonable, and absolutely contrary to the attitude of the poster I was quoting.kensingtonmom wrote: But I have to say again, grow up. There are children in the world and their are poor people in the world and they do share your space.
Who is that supposed to be directed at? And your second statement is a tautology that nobody here would argue with. -
Innocent X wrote: Making a comparison between two things doesn't necessitate comparing each thing in its entirety. I'm not talking about law, I'm talking about attitude.
I get your gist but please, let's be respectful of history. I think it's more than a stretch relating your parenting strife at a restaurant to decades of ignorance that resulted in people being lynched. -
It seems one of the camps here is that kids should not be interfering with "adult space."
I think this another easy and mistaken generalization. Children and adults share most public spaces in Park Slope. Kids in restaurants or stores are fine by me. I don't like it when they throw things or curse at me, but you know an apology would make everything ok. I think that's what brooklynpotter was getting at in the beginning of this thread. Common courtesy does not equal child hating. -
Dannalicious wrote: I get your gist but please, let's be respectful of history. I think it's more than a stretch relating your parenting strife at a restaurant to decades of ignorance that resulted in people being lynched.
Decades? I guess you don't know your history. Longer than that, my dear. -
[quote="Gradon IV"]
I think this another easy and mistaken generalization. Children and adults share most public spaces in Park Slope. Kids in restaurants or stores are fine by me. I don't like it when they throw things or curse at me, but you know an apology would make everything ok. I think that's what brooklynpotter was getting at in the beginning of this thread. Common courtesy does not equal child hating.
Personally, I'm not responding to brooklynpotter. I see her point. But it's not a generalization to say that a lot of people who've posted since her initial post don't want children in their quote unquote space. Goes back to other threads, the no kids in Soda, etc. -
Innocent X wrote: [quote=Dannalicious]I get your gist but please, let's be respectful of history. I think it's more than a stretch relating your parenting strife at a restaurant to decades of ignorance that resulted in people being lynched.
Decades? I guess you don't know your history. Longer than that, my dear.
People suffered for a long period of time but to be completely fact-oriented, Jim Crow laws were enacted between 1876 and 1965. Under a hundred years is categorized as decades. Had it been 100 years or more I would have said centuries.
The Black Codes enacted from 1800-1866 were a separate issue unrelated to Jim Crow but similar in their intent.
Having clarified this, I still think it's not an appropriate simile. If you had a sense of history, perhaps you'd see why this comparison is preposterous. My dear. -
I have to agree with you dannalicious, but I think you're only feeding a troll.
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bklyngirl wrote: Are we forgetting that this thread started by someone who was annoyed by children in a park? Seriously? A person who said "I'm mad because it ruined my day"
hi, brooklyngirl, nice to meet you. i'm brooklyn potter, the "someone" who you deduce from my original post was "mad because it ruined my day."
I have had more instances of awful smelly guys trying to chat me up in a bar than kids being annoying, or merely just being kids.
Seriously, who is being childish here?
really? i said that? because this is actually what i did say: --sitting in the park enjoying a lovely day and having kids with kites start running by my blanket. one kid dragged his kite across my blanket twice, thwapping me on the face in the process. barely an apology from the moms.
i'm so glad that you came over to this forum and this thread and started acting like a petulant four-year-old throwing a tantrum, talking about people who scream at kids when it's warranted--and sometimes it is--and acted as though, i don't know, you'd been personally insulted. was it your child who's kite thwapped me on the face? is that why you're going berzerk?
i really, really hate the turns this discussion is taking. people so defensive that they say it's ridiculous that any of these things can happen. no kid would ever kick an adult for no reason. no kid would ever smash someone's lunch. christ, of course they would. we've all been guilty of bad behavior at some point in our lives, and hopefully we've grown out of it.
but this whole, "this never happened! it's a lie! she's a liar! she's making things up! blah blah blah" thing is all too reminiscent of the parents of the bratty little girls we all grew up with. the kids who could do absolutely no wrong no matter what they did. it was always the other kids' faults, not their little angels.
so brooklyngirl, again, welcome to our humble home. misquote me again and i'll be on you quicker than a kid can smash a bagel to the floor. -
Leona wrote:
Dont take this the wrong way but if you are saying that all this was done by complete stranger's children and you were doing nothing more then minding your own buisness then I am saying I dont believe you.
I've been hit, run over, jostled, bumped, and slapped. I've yet to receive a sincere apology but even a fake one is few and far between. -
if i were able to, i would love to find someone to do one of those hidden-camera investigations on this. i mean, i've seen this one side, others have seen the polar opposite. nobody wants to agree on a middle ground (and i won't because, like leona, it's happened to me...)
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friendlypitbull wrote: [quote=Leona]
Dont take this the wrong way but if you are saying that all this was done by complete stranger's children and you were doing nothing more then minding your own buisness then I am saying I dont believe you.
I've been hit, run over, jostled, bumped, and slapped. I've yet to receive a sincere apology but even a fake one is few and far between.
I've pretty much said this before, but the idea that some of us are making up stories out of whole cloth really irritates me. I don't mind children, I'm very quiet and mind my own business but I have my share of Park Slope Children horror stories.
I'm wondering if some of us have different experiences based on our lifestyle ... for instance, I work freelance and therefore come into contact with children more than a person with a 9-5 job.
Having said that, I hate to make generalizations but since moving to the south slope a year ago I haven't seen any bratty behavior in the kids around here (and no stroller mafia contingent, at least not yet). Maybe it's because there are more long-established families here and you can't get away with that kind of self-indulgent behavior ... -
Read the fine print, Licious. The laws and the attitude existed way past 1964. Some of those laws came off the books only in the past few years.
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Carnivore wrote:
No, you weren't. Perhaps you misread my post - comparing public displays of children to Jim Crowe laws is just fucking evil, wrong and disgusting.
Well, I think just gave all of us a perfect example of the kind of attitude BP was originally complaining about.kensingtonmom wrote: But as much as I need to make sure my kids aren't a nuisance, child-free people need to chill out and accept children with their limitations. Not out of control brats but kids being kids. Can't that be our common ground? Their is no excuse for obnoxious parenting
There is no excuse for race baiting, obnoxious hipsterism, entitled wifi bandits, and child-free people with egos so big and personal responsibility so little that they blame children, and the people who care for them, for ruining their lives and their neighborhoods.
Grow the fuck up. -
Having said that, I hate to make generalizations but since moving to the south slope a year ago I haven't seen any bratty behavior in the kids around here (and no stroller mafia contingent, at least not yet). Maybe it's because there are more long-established families here and you can't get away with that kind of self-indulgent behavior ...
when there is no one left to blame, it's always easiest to blame "the new people". -
kensingtonmom wrote: I never let my kids act out in restaurants and as I have said, we have indoor voices, outdoor voices and restaurant voices. But as much as I need to make sure my kids aren't a nuisance, child-free people need to chill out and accept children with their limitations. Not out of control brats but kids being kids. Can't that be our common ground? Their is no excuse for obnoxious parenting.
kmom, that is our common ground to a point, at least with you from what you've said about your children about your parenting skills.
with that on the table (and know this isn't directed specifically at you, per se) "child-free" people aren't the only ones who have issues here, and it's really disturbing when people lump those like me into that category. i don't sneer at kids when they walk into restaurants. well, that's not true. i give whomever i'm with a look when kids who are screaming and yelling and moaning walk into a restaurant.
i think laura has a really good point, about when these incidents happen: i, too, am self employed so i see a lot of "daytime" behavior and perhaps there really is a difference.
the thing is, i'm more than willing to be flexible here. it's the people who think any child would ever behave this way who aren't. who are so blinded by the love they have for, and they protection they give to, their children. so blind that their either don't see their kids acting this way, and say people like me are lying (please, tell me what my motivation would be for lying?). or, worse, have lost touch with what is and what is not acceptable behavior.
you guys need to watch some dr. phil. -
brooklynpotter wrote: when i decided to sell at this fair i was promised i'd be in a safe place in the corner.
Haha. This explains everything about you. As does your blog.
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